[fluff]

There's been a lot of accusations of racism here recently, with N8 and Chagleen both termed as such. Clearly both use some dubious rhetoric but I really don't see that they stand out unless you are looking at their posts from a particular viewpoint. For example, Changleen's posts about Jews are no worse than many other's posts about Arabs, yet derogatory posts about Arabs seem acceptable.

Pots and kettles? Or am I missing something (other than several thousand brian cells that have died before their time).

 

[BurlyShirley]

What is it about stiff British people always trying to ruin the fun?

 

[fluff]

What is it about stiff British people always trying to ruin the fun?

That's how we get our kicks.

 

[valve bouncer]

That's how we get our kicks.

Bloody Poms

 

[fluff]

Bloody Poms

So, apart from VB, who knows the origin and meaning of poms?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Cause brits are know for fvcking pomeranians?

What do I win?

 

[valve bouncer]

So, apart from VB, who knows the origin and meaning of poms?

As far as I know no-one has come up with a definite origin for that word.

 

[N8 v2.0]

All I know is that when a true blue Aussie call a brit a 'pom' it ain't a compliment....

...and back on topic, no one can find a single instance of me being a racist...

Nationalistic yes... racist no.

 

[valve bouncer]

All I know is that when a true blue Aussie call a brit a 'pom' it ain't a compliment....

Then you don't know sh*t then N8. But we all knew that.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Then you don't know sh*t then N8. But we all knew that.

HAHA... y'all only want Pommies to think its a term of national origin...

 

[valve bouncer]

HAHA... y'all only want Pommies to think its a term of national origin...

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you? And regarding your last post, neither do I....where's the bunny with a pancake on his head....

 

[N8 v2.0]

Like, umm... what was the question again...?

 

[LordOpie]

(other than several thousand brian cells that have died before their time).

You're name's Brian?

 

[fluff]

You're name's Brian?

No, it was a deliberate typo of brain!

Was you'res deliberate?

 

[Skookum]

Being a racist it lame, freedome of speech is fine as long as you allow others freedom to knock you the **** out for being a dumbass.

 

[pnj]

I admit it, I am a racist.

I hate white people.

 

[LordOpie]

Being a racist it lame

true, but having prejudices is natural and people shouldn't be beaten down for that. Changleen's still a racist tho.

 

[BurlyShirley]

true, but having prejudices is natural and people shouldn't be beaten down for that. Changleen's still a racist tho.

I do not pretend NOT to have any racial preconceptions, I just try not to let them be used against me like Changleen did when he got OWN3D the other day If you acknowledge race, you are a racist to some extent.

 

[Toshi]

If you acknowledge race, you are a racist to some extent.

and to not acknowledge race is stupid. lots of people like to bandy about tripe about how we're all 99.9% genetically identical etc. etc.. what's missing from that statement is a grasp of biology:

- genes only make up a tiny portion of the genome, the rest is stuff we don't understand for the most part but doesn't encode proteins
- genes don't encode phenotypes, visible manifestations (skin color, etc.), directly
- therefore that tiny change accounts for the entire variation in what we call "human", from weird birth defects to normal variations between individuals and between statistically "average" members of races

so basically the 0.1%ers have no idea about what that 0.1% means.

going back to that junk link above we find this lovely quote:

"I'm not saying these results don't recognize genetic differences among human populations," [a scientist] cautions. "There are differences, but they don't define historical lineages that have persisted for a long time. The point is, for race to have any scientific validity and integrity it has to have generality beyond any one species. If it doesn't, the concept is meaningless."

altho i find the reasoning a bit lacking (race is a HUMAN concept, so i don't care if we don't see parallels in other species), it's revealing to see how this statement is characterized by the headline writers:

Genetically Speaking Race Doesn't Exist In Humans Says Researcher

how did "for race to have any ... validity ... it has to have generality beyond any one species" get turned into "genetically speaking race doesn't exist in humans"? :angry:

 

[Toshi]

I do not pretend NOT to have any racial preconceptions, I just try not to let them be used against me like Changleen did when he got OWN3D the other day

and about the other day, i don't think anyone was owned. it just seemed like you, changleen and lordopie were having fun calling each other names. changleen's statement DID have a non-racist interpretation, you guys just jumped on your imaginative one...

 

[BurlyShirley]

and about the other day, i don't think anyone was owned. it just seemed like you, changleen and lordopie were having fun calling each other names. changleen's statement DID have a non-racist interpretation, you guys just jumped on your imaginative one...

No, see. He actaully got mad and called us IMMATURE. It was great. Who resorts to that. He got own3d pretty good IMO.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I'm racist against liberals... does that count?


:evil:

 

[Toshi]

No, see. He actaully got mad and called us IMMATURE. It was great. Who resorts to that. He got own3d pretty good IMO.

that's a valid retort when all you guys are doing is calling (adult versions of) playground names... "own3d" included.

 

[preppie]

No, see. He actaully got mad and called us IMMATURE. It was great. Who resorts to that. He got own3d pretty good IMO.

Changleen got OWN3D ????

Why because he got sick of you guys being completely clueless and never
ever know when to stop posting dumb sh!t ?

 

[zod]

this is getting gay......... oops, was that racist??

 

[LordOpie]

Changleen got OWN3D ????

Why because he got sick of you guys being completely clueless and never
ever know when to stop posting dumb sh!t ?

who are you?

 

[ohio]

So, apart from VB, who knows the origin and meaning of poms?

pom, short for pommy, which comes from POME, which stands for
Prisoner
Of
Mother
England

It's what the criminals sent to Australia technically were... but they turned that around and started calling anyone stuck back in the homeland by the same (now ironic) name. Am I right?

 

[Toshi]

pom, short for pommy, which comes from POME, which stands for
Prisoner
Of
Mother
England

It's what the criminals sent to Australia technically were... but they turned that around and started calling anyone stuck back in the homeland by the same (now ironic) name. Am I right?

i didn't know anything offhand, but wikipedia says your etymology is fake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_words_for_British

The term Pommy for a British person is commonly used in Australian English and New Zealand English, and is often shortened to Pom. The origin of this term is uncertain. A number of fake etymologies have sprung up, mostly along the lines that POM is an acronym for "Prisoner of Mother England" or somesuch, referring to the fact that the earliest settlers were convicts, sentenced to transportation. None of these explanations bear up under scrutiny, and the use of acronyms is largely a late twentieth century phenomenon. A more likely etymology is that it is a contraction of "pomegranates", a former rhyming slang term for "immigrants".

 

[genpowell71]

Children let's be tolerant of those who's minds dont work that fast. N8 cant help it he's so far right of right he's left. And as for Changleen, I've fought with him on many issues and I can say this about him... The frontal lobotmy worked great. He's as brainwashed as they get...

 

[pnj]

Children let's be tolerant of those who's minds dont work that fast. N8 cant help it he's so far right of right he's left. And as for Changleen, I've fought with him on many issues and I can say this about him... The frontal lobotmy worked great. He's as brainwashed as they get...

oh oh! do me next!!!

:devil:

 

[LordOpie]

oh oh! do me next!!!

:devil:

*shudders*

 

[Changleen]

Why because he got sick of you guys being completely clueless and never ever know when to stop posting dumb sh!t ?

That's about the size of it.

 

[genpowell71]

oh oh! do me next!!!

:devil:

You wait your turn!!

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I'm racist against liberals... does that count?


:evil:

its racist depending on who´s opinion??

like if you say "i dislike liberals" in say an ultra paranoial crowd, who will link the word "liberal" to certain ethnic group.

or if you say it to any other person, who´s definition of "liberal" is not race-based.

in changleens post. the jewish conspiracy??? IMO, the term is no different from the term "Italian mafia", or "catholic church" or "russian commies".

the interpretation of such terms are being racist, is more racist imo.

and toshi, when i read your posts, i thought abuot this. there are breeds among dogs. how analog (biologically) are dog breeds to human races???? enough to make parallels, or not???

and n8, isnt extreme nationalism like yours or the PNAC, a form of "ethnic self-supremacy", rather than "ethnic identity"???? i mean, remember nationalism was 50% on NA-ZI.

 

[BurlyShirley]

and toshi, when i read your posts, i thought abuot this. there are breeds among dogs. how analog (biologically) are dog breeds to human races???? enough to make parallels, or not???

I always wondered this as well. Then I got to thinking about how some breeds of dogs are smarter than others, and how if you even insinuate such a thing when talking about people, you're looked at as a bigoted fool, so I just never bothered to ask. But since you threw it out there. :evil:

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I always wondered this as well. Then I got to thinking about how some breeds of dogs are smarter than others, and how if you even insinuate such a thing when talking about people, you're looked at as a bigoted fool, so I just never bothered to ask. But since you threw it out there. :evil:

yup, thats exactly what popped to my mind when i read toshis post.

is there any biological reason NOT to believe such analogies can be drawn????

i mean, physically, there are obvious advantages in some sports for certain races. certain characteristics (short, low-fat, thin muscled, high oxygenation capability) are desirable and also might be common to a human race, and they do give an edge in long distance running for example.

the evidence for that is there, but how much can you extend this concept into say verbal reasoning, or mathematical abstraction, or etc, etc, etc.....

 

[Toshi]

i've raised the same point on slashdot. such posts have gotten me +5, Informative and Insightful moderation, so apparently it's a valid question. unfortunately no one seems to know the answer.

on the other hand it is rather fruitless to ask such questions. variations between individuals due to birth/development defects, environment during early years, nutrition during those years etc. etc. are significant confounding factors to any study.

furthermore in later years it becomes clear that hard work is necessary, and even in an "arduous" school such as med school the amount and difficulty (especially difficulty) of work is not so close to the theoretical maximum of 144 hrs/week of peak performance that a studious but "normal" person couldn't surpass a somewhat lazy but facile person.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

i agree on external social factors as "contaminating" the evidence.

but how much?? i cant believe people is that much scared from "race" for no serious source to have an educated estimate on the matter.

is racial comparison at biochemical levels the new heliocentrical theory in the middle ages????? that no one wants to touch to avoid eternal damnation?
i mean, just for the sake of science, no racism here.

with like dogs, of course training will outweight natural talent or lacks, BUT at some point one, biology will give one of them an edge on any given subject.

like given similar training, a poodle will usually respond better than say a greyhound.

 

[Toshi]

the other thing inhibiting such studies is that we have no good way of measuring intelligence without societal or cultural bias. spatial tests for example -- i know i do well on them in large part because i've been taking them (or similar tests) all my life. i would expect unfamiliarity to cause a decrease in performance if you, say, presented the average schmoe off the street in nairobi with one.

on the other hand it's easy to identify underperformance, especially since many of the neurodegenerative diseases have physical manifestations you can see (usually after death). prion diseases like "mad cow", for instance, cause plaques of protein to build up in the brain, with alzheimers etc. being similar. i don't think one would find any widespread characteristics in high performing people. instead they're just those for whom everything (genetics, environment, schooling/reinforcement, disposition/response to stress) lined up just right.

 

[Changleen]

Ignoring the nurture side of things for a second - I think we all appreciate the levels of differentiation that can be drawn from that source - I think you could start by looking at the degree of genetic differentiaton in dog species. I don't know, but I would guess it would be higher than the minimal range found in humans. (Isn't human variation the lowest of all Terran species or something?)

Secondly, due to the extreme nature of human intervention in Canine breeding over the years, certain species of dog are physically restricted in terms of 'performance' more than other dogs - not just in terms of intelligence either. Chihuahuas are heavily predisposed to heart and lung problems, some terrier species always have trouble breathing, Alsatians and Labradors are disposed to hip problems in later life.

Despite these factors, most people would still say dogs as a species are similar in a lot of ways and as humans we tend to group them together psycologically (sic I've had a couple a beers) especially behaviour wise - like we'd say 'Ah well he's a dog' - and in general apply species wide judgement to their behaviour (Man's best friend, eats slippers, barks at strangers etc.) in the same way that we reserve for supposed,and gentically speaking, far finer 'racial' or cultural differences in humans. Sure, we have instinctive retrivers, guard dogs, gun dogs etc, but even beyond a dog's physical form these are human imposed sensibilities. Wolfs are loyal, tree pissing, barky beasts too.

Given that genetic variation in the dogs is probably higher, I guess that just shows how stupid 'genetic' racism is. I think when most people talk about racism, even those who are aware of it's true definition, they are really at best talking about 'nurture' racism, (which isn't really 'racism' then, if you ask me) or more normally applying the phrase in the completly wrong way - refering to bigotry, prejudice, social stereotyping and so on - not actually 'racist'. It's a convenient cover-all malaise for a host of other social issues.
I don't know about you guys (insular yanks most of you )but I've spent a long time in London, the US, Japan, Europe and I have frinds from all these places, and especially in London, friends of many ethnicities and even (gasp) religions. As a child of the 80's and 90's I don't think genuine racism has really ever been a problem for me. In nearly all cases where 'racism' has been called, it seems to me to be far more often 'Actually, I don't like your cultural identity' or 'I don't like your politics' - and for sure in a lot of cases these judgements are passed on others without actual knowledge of the receipients actual views, or social heritage. The most common version I think I see is 'I don't like your value-set' or 'I don't understand your way of communicating'.

What is especially funny is that people like Opie get differences in personal religious belief and political agenda confused with racism. I'm not really sure how as one is 100% nature, the other 100% nurture, but anyway... I was accused by Opie and Burly of being racist for, as they saw it, hating Jews. (I certainly don't hate all jews, but that is beside the point.) Being as there exist Polish Jews, American Jews, White Jews, Black jews, African Jews, Arab Jews, as anyone with a quater of a brain can distinguish, the term 'racist' is laughably incorrect, and it's use is symptomatic of the kind of closed minded ignorance I have come to expect from a certain section of the American public.

It occurs to me that the inability to differentiate between such an unsubtle difference as this is often coupled with the inability to differentiate between higher and lower grade Presidential material. Damn, those Bush voting republicans are stupid.