[BurlyShirley]

Ok, Kerry is a big supporter of this, raising it up to $7 an hour. Who else is, and why?
To me it seems like if you do than it would just mean less profit for businesses in our "struggling economy" who would also be dealing with tax repeals if Kerry got in office. Also, would this not affect inflation? And finally, if minimum wage goes up, and the gap between skilled and unskilled labor is closed in terms of salary, isnt that bad news for companies whose workers will demand increases?

 

[valve bouncer]

What is it now?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Ok, Kerry is a big supporter of this, raising it up to $7 an hour. Who else is, and why?
To me it seems like if you do than it would just mean less profit for businesses in our "struggling economy" who would also be dealing with tax repeals if Kerry got in office. Also, would this not affect inflation? And finally, if minimum wage goes up, and the gap between skilled and unskilled labor is closed in terms of salary, isnt that bad news for companies whose workers will demand increases?

lol. everytime i read you, i wonder if your last name is kennedy, vanderbilt or rockefeller.

:nuts:

 

[Skookum]

Dude let's lower the minimum wage to $4.00 an hour and let's see the companies flourish!!!!
Who cares that the rate of living is still increasing as long as businesses flourish!!! Hooray!
Dude the middle class is a good ideal and possible, has been for years before, why the holy hell do you want to gut it? Do you like being frikkin poor with little or no future, work hard all your life and still not have $hit?
Sad sad sad state of mind....

40 hour work week = $206 gross
So let's just say after taxes bring home is $175 bucks a week......
How in the FUKK does anyone make it with that kinda chump change?
My rent for a 1 bedroom apt is $625 a month......

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

hahaha, yeah burlysurly. i wanna see minimum incomes drop in the US like to the levels of SouthAmerica.

150 bucks a month do great things for the economy!!!!! that way everybody will hire a maid and no unemployment will ever exists, even if all mexico moves up north.

in fact if you can convince people to work for food, like in china or honduras, it would be even better for the macroeconomical growth!! imagine a 20% GDP yearly increase!!

lets race to the bottom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Changleen]

Our minimum wage here in NZ is (equivelently) nearly 150% the US minimum wage. In the UK it is nearly 200%.

Raising the minimum wage will make a minor difference to business owners bottom lines, but also make a lot of peoples lives slightly more tolerable. Make your choice.

 

[fluff]

Ok, Kerry is a big supporter of this, raising it up to $7 an hour. Who else is, and why?
To me it seems like if you do than it would just mean less profit for businesses in our "struggling economy" who would also be dealing with tax repeals if Kerry got in office. Also, would this not affect inflation? And finally, if minimum wage goes up, and the gap between skilled and unskilled labor is closed in terms of salary, isnt that bad news for companies whose workers will demand increases?

Do you support tax breaks for individuals? The rationale for tax cuts is that it gives people more money to buy stuff... I wonder if raising the minimum wage might enable people to spend more, generating larger profits to go with the higher bottom line?

This is a loop the UK went through several years ago with the right wing here getting all upset just like you have. They support it now, go figure..

Why does anyone fall for this rubbish?

 

[BurlyShirley]

****, do you guys even pay attention? Of course I want everyone to have as much money as possible, but I just wonder the best way to go about it. My GF, for example, works at a dialysis clinic and makes about 9 bucks an hour...she's been working there for like 4 years. This is not a non-skill job, but when you start giving people at Taco Bell $7 an hour, I would think that prices go up, and her actual skill position is worth less. That, or the company she works for has to pay her more to cover the difference, and health care costs go up. Apply this to just about every other industry, and then giving the money just becomes kind of useless, right? Im no economist, I know, but I just dont get how it helps.
Now, people were jumping on GWB last night when they said he switched the focus from jobs to education, but I see the connection especially in this situation. Grown adults with families shouldnt even be working for minimum wage, and most people arent going to, as you can sit on your a$$ and collect welfare or unemployment that will pay your more than the minimum wage if you worked full time.
Skookum, why is not supporting a minimum wage increase liking to be poor with no future? I dont ever plan to work for minimum wage, so I dont think its really an issue.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Do you support tax breaks for individuals?

A 50% tax cut for someone who works full time minimum wage would be like 10 bucks.

 

[zod]

Minimum wage should not be regulated by the government

 

[fluff]

Minimum wage should not be regulated by the government

Who should it be regulated by?

 

[zod]

I think the market will control it. People will only work for so little, there is an argument to be made that a government endorsed regulated min.wage actually keeps wages lower than they would be otherwise. Food for thought.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I think the market will control it. People will only work for so little, there is an argument to be made that a government endorsed regulated min.wage actually keeps wages lower than they would be otherwise. Food for thought.

look how good that works in mexico.

 

[fluff]

I think the market will control it. People will only work for so little, there is an argument to be made that a government endorsed regulated min.wage actually keeps wages lower than they would be otherwise. Food for thought.

I'd like to see you make that argument.

 

[LordOpie]

instead of raising minimum wage, what about doubling personal deductions on taxes. I think each individual gets a $7k deduction? Increasing that effectively gives everyone a raise, but it's more pronounced for lower waged people. Maybe that'll keep inflation in check while helping out the poor and stimulating the economy.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I think the market will control it. People will only work for so little, there is an argument to be made that a government endorsed regulated min.wage actually keeps wages lower than they would be otherwise. Food for thought.

hahahaahahaaahahahahhaaha.... bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha. bwhahahahahahahahaha.... "people would only work for so little".... hahahahahahahaha, bwahahahahahahahahaahhaahahaha......

people would work for ANYTHING, if as a block, competition drives wages down, and there is no other chance.

supply and demand, the more supply of workers, the less each is gonna make. it will drive the price for the "labor commodity" down, like with every comodity, no way its gonna go up.

an established minimal wage being lower than a market driven minimal wage?????? that is ludicrous.

where do you people get all those ideas?????

 

[biggins]

i thik it should certainly be raised. i think it is 5.15 an hour im not sure though. this leads to several problems that i see. it leads to people having to take advantage of government assistance programs waaaaaaaay to much. we could raise the minimum wage and effectively reduce some of the assistance programs couldnt we? Also the minimum wage level rises no where near the same rate as many things people need on a day to day basis like health care, child care, medicine, petrolium products....

 

[BurlyShirley]

i thik it should certainly be raised. i think it is 5.15 an hour im not sure though. this leads to several problems that i see. it leads to people having to take advantage of government assistance programs waaaaaaaay to much.

did you even read my last post?

 

[biggins]

uhhhhm the one about mexico?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

i thik it should certainly be raised. i think it is 5.15 an hour im not sure though. this leads to several problems that i see. it leads to people having to take advantage of government assistance programs waaaaaaaay to much. we could raise the minimum wage and effectively reduce some of the assistance programs couldnt we? Also the minimum wage level rises no where near the same rate as many things people need on a day to day basis like health care, child care, medicine, petrolium products....

you know, in my opinion, in a country as wealthy as the US, having such a low minimal wage AND havign a welfare system is in a way; a subsidy to companies.

i mean, mcjobs for example relay on minimal wage workers. and this minimal wage workers are usually the ones receiving welfare.

so in a way, this employers rely on the gvmt to subsidy part of their payroll, since even the gvmt knows that 5.15 is not enough to make a living.

so in way, its not this people leeching the state, but this employers that leech the state, making every taxpayer support their payroll.

so raising the minimal wage, would actually take of the burden of this employers from the taxpayer, and put it back to where is should have been in the first place, the employer.

i dont see how that meassure is not a conservative meassure, since it actually reduces the size of the gvmt, and gives each its responsabilities. (and i dont think it should be the worker making 5.15 the one footing the bill, in fact i dont see why in the US a person who works 40hours a week should not make a living, thus he is making his part on the economy, yet he cannot make a living)

 

[zod]

hahahaha hehehehe blablablabla etc etc etc

It's pure economic theory, don't set it aside without exploring it dude...

http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=674

 

[biggins]

you know, in my opinion, in a country as wealthy as the US, having such a low minimal wage AND havign a welfare system is in a way; a subsidy to companies.

i mean, mcjobs for example relay on minimal wage workers. and this minimal wage workers are usually the ones receiving welfare.

so in a way, this employers rely on the gvmt to subsidy part of their payroll, since even the gvmt knows that 5.15 is not enough to make a living.

so in way, its not this people leeching the state, but this employers that leech the state, making every taxpayer support their payroll.

so raising the minimal wage, would actually take of the burden of this employers from the taxpayer, and put it back to where is should have been in the first place, the employer.

i dont see how that meassure is not a conservative meassure, since it actually reduces the size of the gvmt, and gives each its responsabilities. (and i dont think it should be the worker making 5.15 the one footing the bill, in fact i dont see why in the US a person who works 40hours a week should not make a living, thus he is making his part on the economy, yet he cannot make a living)

my point exactly, you just said it better than me.

 

[ohio]

I DO think minimum wage is a state issue, not a federal one. However; for almost all locales in the country, current minimum wage is too low. It should NOT be entirely market regulated, as some people are forced to take whatever they can get. Some money is better than no money, so they supply demand curve doesn't work out for a living wage and you would otherwise have kids skipping school to feed their families.

In terms of raising the minimum wage, there are pros and cons, and striking a balance is important. Raising min wage to a living wage reduces stress on the welfare system by encouraging and enabling self-sufficiency (something even you right-wingers like); however, raising it too high can be harsh on businesses, though not SMALL businesses as normally cited. It's actually harshest for large national businesses and franchises, which have figured out very efficient ways of maximizing the proportion of minimum wagers they can function with. Local/small businesses are actually advantaged vs. big co's when min wage is raised, though they DO take an immediate hit just like everyone else. There's also the problem of inflation, but in real life you would have to raise min wage about 100% before it caused inflation.

Lastly, raising min wage DOES have an immediate boost effect on the consumer goods economy, because so many min wage earners are teenagers that spend 100% of their post-tax income. It only has a trickle-up effect on the investment side though.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

It's pure economic theory, don't set it aside without exploring it dude...

http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=674

hmm, that article does not seem more "scientific" than my speculation, and observation. imo (no data, but anecdotal) it does not compply with several requisites to say it is a sound social science theory.

plus in economics, there are always hardcore sides pushing mutually exclusive and contradictory theories.

in this case? what would it be this theory??

the ones pushing for a no-minimal wage (a catastrophic failure everywhere its been implemented, ask any south-american, just like communism), or the other theory of establishing lower boundaries, which, while not perfect, seems to have worked out usually better than the other idea (just like capitalism and democracy).....

 

[Skookum]

Skookum, why is not supporting a minimum wage increase liking to be poor with no future? I dont ever plan to work for minimum wage, so I dont think its really an issue.

Because i'm tired of labor cost's being driven down, while the price of everything is increasing. Like you state it's all related, so ultimately if labor costs are frozen by the time you get a steady job you very well will probably be making minimum wage when compared to a percentage and not the literal number.
Hey i'm not an economist either but i'm aware and realistic and not idealistic like you in knowing big business doesn't give a rats ass about me, you, or minimum wage dude. And i know they got tons of money, why take the side of the business when all WE want is a little frikkin crumb of the pie....
Just a frikkin crumb.....

 

[BurlyShirley]

Hey i'm not an economist either but i'm aware and realistic and not idealistic like you in knowing big business doesn't give a rats ass about me, you, or minimum wage dude. And i know they got tons of money, why take the side of the business when all WE want is a little frikkin crumb of the pie....
Just a frikkin crumb.....

I think I just tend to look at our economy as a 'we' instead of an 'us vs. them' scenario unlike most of the people on this board. I know that healthy corporations mean the prospect of more upward mobility, which is more important to me than raising the minimum wage $2 for non-skilled workers. If the opportunity is there to either help corporations create better, high paying jobs for these people, rather than keeping them trapped in the land of minimum wage (regardless of whether it $5 or $7), I say we need to invest in the companies by giving them tax breaks and not screwing them with minimum wage hikes that IMO, wouldnt even necessarily help the people getting them all that much, since the govt. subsidizes those REALLY in need anyway.

 

[Skookum]

I think I just tend to look at our economy as a 'we' instead of an 'us vs. them' scenario unlike most of the people on this board. I know that healthy corporations mean the prospect of more upward mobility, which is more important to me than raising the minimum wage $2 for non-skilled workers. If the opportunity is there to either help corporations create better, high paying jobs for these people, rather than keeping them trapped in the land of minimum wage (regardless of whether it $5 or $7), I say we need to invest in the companies by giving them tax breaks and not screwing them with minimum wage hikes that IMO, wouldnt even necessarily help the people getting them all that much, since the govt. subsidizes those REALLY in need anyway.

Idealism at it's worst....
In business you broker and deal, you don't "trust" a company to do the right thing for you......
c'mon wake up....

 

[ohio]

I know that healthy corporations mean the prospect of more upward mobility, which is more important to me than raising the minimum wage $2 for non-skilled workers.

A living wage with time to attend night classes or similar also means a prospect of upward mobility. The ability to go to college, rather than having to support your parents because they're only making minimum wage means a prospect of upward mobility. We're not talking about middle management getting the exec bathroom key here...

If the opportunity is there to either help corporations create better, high paying jobs for these people, rather than keeping them trapped in the land of minimum wage (regardless of whether it $5 or $7), I say we need to invest in the companies by giving them tax breaks and not screwing them with minimum wage hikes that IMO, wouldnt even necessarily help the people getting them all that much, since the govt. subsidizes those REALLY in need anyway.

Why would these companies EVER promote an uneducated worker?
If you can't figure out a way to enable training of some kind for these people it doesn't matter how well their company does, other people are going to come in laterally above them.

There's plenty of money out there to be made, and all of these companies pay according to the wage scales as their competition... if they can't compete, it's because they're a **** company and it's not my job as a tax-payer to foot the bill for their incompetence with tax-cuts and subsidies.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Idealism at it's worst....
In business you broker and deal, you don't "trust" a company to do the right thing for you......
c'mon wake up....

Its not an issue of trust for one, its simple math. A company that makes money is going to hire more workers and expand, thus helping the economy and workers themselves. What's so hard to get about that?
Also, telling me to wake up is kind of getting old because its not as if I havent considered your viewpoint. I just disagree with it as do many many others. Assuming Im ignorant is not the right way to go about convincing me of anything. I dont argue this from a personal perspective becuase I try to be objective.

 

[Silver]

Its not an issue of trust for one, its simple math. A company that makes money is going to hire more workers and expand, thus helping the economy and workers themselves. What's so hard to get about that?
Also, telling me to wake up is kind of getting old because its not as if I havent considered your viewpoint. I just disagree with it as do many many others. Assuming Im ignorant is not the right way to go about convincing me of anything. I dont argue this from a personal perspective becuase I try to be objective.

How much has CEO pay increased compared to average worker pay in the last 25 years? Anyone?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Why would these companies EVER promote an uneducated worker?
If you can't figure out a way to enable training of some kind for these people it doesn't matter how well their company does, other people are going to come in laterally above them.

There's plenty of money out there to be made, and all of these companies pay according to the wage scales as their competition... if they can't compete, it's because they're a **** company and it's not my job as a tax-payer to foot the bill for their incompetence with tax-cuts and subsidies.

They would not and should not promote an uneducated worker, nor should an uneducated worker expect anything more than a minimum salary. BUT I maintain that anyone who wants an education can have one in this country, the problem today is not a lack of people with an education, its a lack of jobs for them to go to, and money to make. If tons of jobs were made available, and there werent enough people to fill them, you can bet that the govt. or the companies themselves would educate folks to work for them.
And Ohio, you foot the tax bill one way or another, whether its subsidizing people who wont by and large do anything with it, or by subsidizing companies who can and will.

 

[BurlyShirley]

How much has CEO pay increased compared to average worker pay in the last 25 years? Anyone?

Are you hinting that its wrong for people at the highest-level management positions to make more money than their workers do?

 

[ohio]

And Ohio, you foot the tax bill one way or another, whether its subsidizing people who wont by and large do anything with it

Last time I checked minimum wage is not paid with tax money. A raise in minimum wage reduces the amount of tax money paid out in welfare. So remind me again what I'm footing the bill for?

Seriously, Burly, you're not going to win this argument. I'm all for businesses doing well. My career depends on it... But raising the minimum wage (at a state/local level, or federally but with "zoning", and within reason) is a good thing for the economy, for small business, and for a balanced federal budget.

I guess I just tend to have a "we" point of view, rather than an "us vs them..."

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I think I just tend to look at our economy as a 'we' instead of an 'us vs. them' scenario unlike most of the people on this board. I know that healthy corporations mean the prospect of more upward mobility, which is more important to me than raising the minimum wage $2 for non-skilled workers. If the opportunity is there to either help corporations create better, high paying jobs for these people, rather than keeping them trapped in the land of minimum wage (regardless of whether it $5 or $7), I say we need to invest in the companies by giving them tax breaks and not screwing them with minimum wage hikes that IMO, wouldnt even necessarily help the people getting them all that much, since the govt. subsidizes those REALLY in need anyway.

of course economy is about "us vs them". you want to sell your labor, and will try to get the most of it, them try to buy your labor and want to pay the least for it. its adam smith.

you may argue the nash ideas on mutual interests, but they only work in a contructive confrontation,

not in "the only way up overall for us is for most of you to go down" which is roughly what is going on in most of the underdeveloped world. and the only way in that scenario (the current scenario) is the adam smith way.

there is balance to reach. for example, if minimum wages were eliminated in the US, of course overall economy will flourish!!!! 30% yearly yield would be more common, and a boost on gdp growth will be felt.
But, for this high macroeconomical numbers, a big socialized cost will be.

I agree with you on the premise that wealth creation is first than wealth distribution, otherwise i´d be a commie.
But i think that at the current level of the US, the trade off economic might, against better conditions for the poor, and more chances to improvement is worth.
its time to start pouring down to the grass some of the rain the high trees are getting... like in northern europe for example.

 

[ohio]

Are you hinting that its wrong for people at the highest-level management positions to make more money than their workers do?

No, he's saying that CEOs are recieving disproportionate raises for doing the same thing they did 10 years ago.

 

[ncrider]

"As one policy analyst once pointed out, it may be easy to lie with statistics, but it's alot easier to lie without them"

The debate over the minimum wage has been an economic pissing match for a long time. Still people disagree. Raising minimum wage will make some workers better off, but it hurts some low-wage workers how lose their jobs because firms will cut back on employment. So are people better of on net? Without statistical data it really comes down to your judgement based on morals and philosophy.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Last time I checked minimum wage is not paid with tax money. A raise in minimum wage reduces the amount of tax money paid out in welfare. So remind me again what I'm footing the bill for?

I disagree that a raise in minimum wage of $2 over 4 or 8 years as Kerry suggested will have much effect on the number of people recieving welfare. You can reduce the number of people on welfare by supporting businesses that create jobs, right?

 

[Silver]

No, he's saying that CEOs are recieving disproportionate raises for doing the same thing they did 10 years ago.

Yep.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P83603.asp

So, how many other people at those large American firms got 27% pay raises last year?

 

[BurlyShirley]

No, he's saying that CEOs are recieving disproportionate raises for doing the same thing they did 10 years ago.

Its just more whining by the have-nots. CEOs deserve whatever raise they give themselves. The health of their companies rest on their shoulders.

 

[Skookum]

Its not an issue of trust for one, its simple math. A company that makes money is going to hire more workers and expand, thus helping the economy and workers themselves. What's so hard to get about that?

Well in turn a labor force that has money to spend on consumer goods helps the economy too. If nobody is buying then business is bad correct? Really oversimplifying like this is going to have going in circles. My deal is Labor has to be as impersonal and businesslike to their business otherwise labor gets hosed big time, it NEVER goes the other way, even though you will hear them whine. or squeal more pie more pie!!! ink:

Also, telling me to wake up is kind of getting old because its not as if I havent considered your viewpoint. I just disagree with it as do many many others. Assuming Im ignorant is not the right way to go about convincing me of anything. I dont argue this from a personal perspective becuase I try to be objective.

I'm not trying to chastise you, but i've been in the workforce for well over 10 years now so i'm just relaying what i've seen. it's just the way it is.
Hey Big Joe here's a huge tax break and low labor costs and illegal immigrants to boot, can you hire my cousin?
Hey where's Big Joe? Big Joe?
Joe?