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rampage, dammit

OGRipper

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Feb 3, 2004
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Apparently Zink thought it was worth risking his life for a chance to win, but that it wasn't worth it to only improve a place or two and still not win.

I doubt we'd see that hashtag if he won.

It should probably be #fuckrampageJUDGING.
 

maxyedor

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Oct 20, 2005
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Given that the human brain isn't even fully developed in to the mid-20s, I'd say that if you asked any of these guys 10 or 15 years from now if they'd still have done their runs knowing what they know in later life, they'd probably say no. I think some of these sports are getting so "extreme" now that the smallest screw-up kills you and has consequences far worse than 10 or 15 years ago. It's good entertainment, but it's getting worse and worse for the participants IMO as the margin of safety gets thinner and thinner. Just keep them hopped up on Red Bull tho...
Ask the "godfathers of the sport" if they regret the hucks. Chances are they'll say no, infact, most of them were at Rampage this year participating in some capacity. Nobody with half a brain gets into mountain biking because it's a good career, 100% of the field at Rampage ended up there because somewhere along the line they fell in love with the sport and decided to focus on it, rather than any number of better paying extreme sports.

The danger level seems to be rising, but the injury numbers are staying pretty level. I think that may be in large part due to the format of these comps. They're rider driven, and in the case of Rampage, the lines are rider designed, if a 70ft gap is too much for you to handle, you build a line around it, as a result, the only people hitting the stupid huge drops and gaps are those who feel confident in their ability to clear them.

Again, these are athletes who sign up for the contest, even ride other contests in hopes of qualifying for Rampage, then they show up, spend 2 weeks creating their own line, knowing full well the risks involved and that they likely won't win a penny, and if they get injured, the promoter won't be covering their bills. Yet they show up anyway. You can say a 25 year old isn't mature enough to make a life changing decision, but if that's really the case, shouldn't we kick anybody under 30 off the trail? More people die racing XC and Enduro than freeriding, can a 25 year old comprehend the danger of heat exaustion? or washing out and hitting some rocks wearing nothing but spandaex?



I agree somewhat. The riders could indeed decline the invitation to ride if they feel they are being exploited. Maybe Zink and Strait won't show next year. Problem is, a lot of the riders are Redbull spawnsored athletes. I wonder if contractually, they can refuse the invitation. When I saw Zink's "#fuckrampage" hashtag, I wondered what other riders thought of it. Andreu has been a pretty outspoken guy in the past, refusing to ride in Joyride and pulling out of the FMB series because he doesn't agree with their vision of mountain biking. So I wondered what he had to say about Redbull and how they fund the athletes at Rampage. And then I realized he is sponsored by them. As are the Claw, Genon, Godziek and a slew of others. The "fact" (I don't know if it really is a fact) that Redbull can coerce them into the competition is a little twisted.

And then there's the "moral" question: is it really better to allow the riders take ever increasing risks just because the reward is greater? I pose the question ethically, as in, they do it just for our entertainment. I don't have the answer, and I guess that's a question the athletes have to answer for themselves... and maybe they don't do it just for our entertainment, maybe it is personal, for their own benefit and sense of accomplishment....
Zink is in a good position to criticize an event, especially a Red Bull event. He's the undisputed champ when it comes to pulling big ass tricks, is sponsored by a rival energy drink company (no doubt Monster encourages a little Red Bull bashing and cringes that their athlete is most known for his performance at RB's events), and he finally seems to have found himself a home in YT and Sensus, if he doesn't compete next year, he still has the cash to feed his kid. That said, it would be hard to argue that Rampage didn't make Zink and cement his status as a legend and innovator of freeride. It's a very co-dependent relationship.

You raise an interesting question about prize money and risk. Would it be any less wrong if an athlete were killed or paralyzed if the prize was $1m? Would it be better if all the athletes simply got an appearance fee so there were no financial pressure to push your limits? Would it be acceptable to drastically up the risk if Red Bull did pay all the medical bills? At what level of injury do athletes deserve compensation?

TL/DR version. Shit happens when you ride your bike, worse shit happens when you crash while riding your bike. Heal up quick Paul B.
 

OGRipper

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Feb 3, 2004
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Those Fest guys are doing it right, but it's hard to see Rampage changing to a format without a winner. Judging is subjective and will always create controversy - that's part of the drama and the appeal. No matter who wins it's fodder for debate and some people will always feel robbed. I know I went back and watched some of the runs a bunch of extra times to see if I agreed with the judges.

Next year will interesting. Rider boycott? Pool all the prizes, with every finalist getting an equal share? Don't hold your breath!
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
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Can riders do what is done in the Redbull Rampage (that type of riding) and reasonably not expect a serious injury or death?
 

thad

Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
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How do you know you when you're old?

When you say "you could break your neck doing that crazy stuff" instead of "THAT WAS FREAKIN AWESOME!!11!"
 

Kanye West

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Aug 31, 2006
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How do you know you when you're old?

When you say "you could break your neck doing that crazy stuff" instead of "THAT WAS FREAKIN AWESOME!!11!"
Broken necks are what closed the most popular and closest mtb resort to LA for 10 years, and probably will again after the last two fatalities there this summer. To think an event like Rampage isn't subject to the same path is colossally stupid.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
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Doesn't matter if a competitor or customer who gets killed, insurance settlements typically mandate closures.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
Considering the amount of money RedBull has and attention they get through this event I think its a disgrace the riders arent at least insured and get expenses covered.
I think thats about all the responsibilty they have though.

Then make Rampage a jam format and problem solved.
 

maxyedor

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Oct 20, 2005
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Very few insurance policies require an event to shut down after a serious injury or death, they just take a closer look at the event and may change the price of the policy for the next year based on their findings. Most events are so poorly managed that they can't afford the higher insurance rates. I'll bet you a quarter we'll see EWS back in Created Butte next year...

Considering the amount of money RedBull has and attention they get through this event I think its a disgrace the riders arent at least insured and get expenses covered.
I think thats about all the responsibilty they have though.

Then make Rampage a jam format and problem solved.
Wouldn't making it a jam session still get Red Bull the same epic footage that in turn would get them the same kind of exposure, but instead of one guy getting a huge check, and everybody else going home empty handed, they all go home empty handed, except the guys who crash, they'd go to the hospital, but maybe they could pay with the street cred earned at the previous years event? At least nobody would get up in arms since it's just a jam session, after all.

Your t12 vertebre is not magically stronger just because it's a jam session.

Anybody have a guesstimate as to what red bull actually makes off this event? I think most assume is somewhere close to the GDP of a medium European country, but in reality, I'll bet it's a whole lot closer to what an average New York hot dog cart pulls in.

Again, riding bikes is really fun, but also really dangerous, people die in XC races for god sake. If Fest has taught us anything, it's that free riders are not motivated by money, there's something else making them tick.
 

csermonet

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Mar 5, 2010
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i dont understand why everyone is comparing rampage to the fest events. hucking the gnar cliffs of virgin utah is nowhere near the same as perfectly smooth and manicured jump lines.
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
Red Bull took a break from this event a few years ago. Riders clamored to get it back. Might be time for another break.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
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Funny to read the "Rampage F-Ya!!" Sentiment early in thread and "Rampage :( :( "sentiment now.

Does anyone think any rider is showing up without comprehensive med insurance including short and long term disability?

Pro riders dont make their salaries off contest winnings, nor are contest winnings expected to pay T&E - they have budgets with sponsors for that.

Pro riders earn money by getting their RB/Monster etc logos on espn or visa tv commercials, and rampage provides the platform to accomplish that.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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Funny to read the "Rampage F-Ya!!" Sentiment early in thread and "Rampage :( :( "sentiment now.

Does anyone think any rider is showing up without comprehensive med insurance including short and long term disability?

Pro riders dont make their salaries off contest winnings, nor are contest winnings expected to pay T&E - they have budgets with sponsors for that.

Pro riders earn money by getting their RB/Monster etc logos on espn or visa tv commercials, and rampage provides the platform to accomplish that.
therein lies one of the problems. sponsorship money in MTB (whether its racing / slope / freeride) isn't the same as it is in other sports, especially when you look into the other sports that make up the Red Bull signature series.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Here's something I posted in another spot in response to someone posting that Lacy Kemp blog:

I read that about an hour ago.

http://extreme.com/insane/1036763/massive-loosefest-pov

The sounds at the end of that video are not cigarettes. Something else maybe. But not cigarettes.

And I'm not sure it's something lacy kemp can relate to.

Redbull did something awesome 15 years ago when they pulled this gem of an event out of todd barber's behind. And it's been pretty friggin awesome ever since. Media blackouts on crashes and injured riders is bullshit. So is willfully misleading the announcers into an 'everyone's okay' narrative to save face.

But redbull invented this thing. It's their house. And it's an invite list, not a draft card. I'm not saying it can't be improved, but literally just walking around with an insight of 'this is fucked up' just makes me want to ask: 'okay what have you done that gives professional riders a chance to shine in this kind of venue? Because if it didn't exist and someone introduced it, every single person competing would be elated at the proposition. It's literally made careers in what everyone competing would gladly call their dream jobs' It's a little condescending to be telling every one of these grown ass men "I know better than you, here let me show you how you've been misled"

Not saying the way the event is run is perfect. But redbull has given a lot of people exactly what they want. And no, I don't mean carnage. That part sucks. But flirting with disaster a little bit is what gives every single one of those guys competing reason to get up in the morning. I'm nobody and I'll admit it straight up, it's why I ride bikes. And rampage as a whole is still an awesome thing. Maybe redbull has gotten a little big for their britches, with the willful misleading to save a public image. But by and large, they're still doing something really neat that up to this point, no one else has been willing to do.

I mean hell, it was what, 21 guys in a final and maybe a dozen that didn't qualify? That's a pretty small number. There are LOTS of guys who obviously bowed out for whatever reason. And that's always an option.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
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therein lies one of the problems. sponsorship money in MTB (whether its racing / slope / freeride) isn't the same as it is in other sports, especially when you look into the other sports that make up the Red Bull signature series.
mountain biking is less marketable to a broad audience than other sports.
 
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Kevin

Turbo Monkey
Very few insurance policies require an event to shut down after a serious injury or death, they just take a closer look at the event and may change the price of the policy for the next year based on their findings. Most events are so poorly managed that they can't afford the higher insurance rates. I'll bet you a quarter we'll see EWS back in Created Butte next year...



Wouldn't making it a jam session still get Red Bull the same epic footage that in turn would get them the same kind of exposure, but instead of one guy getting a huge check, and everybody else going home empty handed, they all go home empty handed, except the guys who crash, they'd go to the hospital, but maybe they could pay with the street cred earned at the previous years event? At least nobody would get up in arms since it's just a jam session, after all.

Your t12 vertebre is not magically stronger just because it's a jam session.

Anybody have a guesstimate as to what red bull actually makes off this event? I think most assume is somewhere close to the GDP of a medium European country, but in reality, I'll bet it's a whole lot closer to what an average New York hot dog cart pulls in.

Again, riding bikes is really fun, but also really dangerous, people die in XC races for god sake. If Fest has taught us anything, it's that free riders are not motivated by money, there's something else making them tick.
Its costing riders money now, and they are at risk of huge medical bills. If rb covers that its a big weight of their shoulders and they would get plenty of exposure in order to get other sponsors.
Plus i dont know why you ride and what you like about it, but for me its also about having fun and kicking my butt out of my comfort zone while raising hell and ripping it up with my buddies.

Having met a quite a few at races and other events, im pretty sure thats no different with the Pro's bikeys.
 

maxyedor

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Oct 20, 2005
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Its costing riders money now, and they are at risk of huge medical bills. If rb covers that its a big weight of their shoulders and they would get plenty of exposure in order to get other sponsors.
Plus i dont know why you ride and what you like about it, but for me its also about having fun and kicking my butt out of my comfort zone while raising hell and ripping it up with my buddies.

Having met a quite a few at races and other events, im pretty sure thats no different with the Pro's bikeys.
Exactly my point, Fest works because it's riders pushing eachother, same as Rampage. Difference being the winner of Rampage gets a check and the winner or Fest gets mad props. We complain that MTB doesn't pay as well as other extreme sports, but now we're saying nobody should get the big check?

If the same injury were to happen at a Fest event, the injured rider would be just as screwed, but it sounds like people wouldn't be upset because there's not a corporation behind Fest. Either way it's a guy risking his life and financial future for your entertainment. Switching Rampage to a jam session format doesn't solve the "issue" at hand, and there's no reason you couldn't solve the problem of athlete medical coverage while still keeping it a contest so that somebody goes home with a check.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
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in general yes. but rampage is one of RB's most watched events
true, but its free to view.

redbull media monitizes through paid clicks on ads from their website, and selling the footage after the fact (to toyota, visa, etc for advertisements, DVD/itunes etc).
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
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Are there any sports in which the event promoters pay for health insurance? It's usually the team or league, isn't it?

Isn't it hard enough to get money into our little bike games?

Like I said a ways back, it should be enough to give these guys the biggest possible stage to do their thing. And aside from a few wooden booters, it is THEIR thing. Their line, their choice to ride.

It really seems to boil down to people being unhappy about the judging - or the fact that there is judging at all. I would question staying involved too if I nailed a line that a year or two ago would have been a clear winner but that didn't even get me on the podium this year. It's just so crowded at the top - the level is so high at this point that a lot of those guys deserve to win, and I can't blame them for being bitter about perceived unfairness in judging.

It would be interesting to see it evolve into a week of a building/jam format. That would avoid weather stops and people hitting ridiculously gnarly stuff for the first time when it's all on the line. I'd watch a couple hours of footage from that for sure. But it would have a lot less drama. Seeing how these guys deal with the pressure of the moment in competition is part of the draw.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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It really seems to boil down to people being unhappy about the judging - or the fact that there is judging at all. I would question staying involved too if I nailed a line that a year or two ago would have been a clear winner but that didn't even get me on the podium this year. It's just so crowded at the top - the level is so high at this point that a lot of those guys deserve to win, and I can't blame them for being bitter about perceived unfairness in judging.
i think the bigger issue is how they handle'd Paul's injury that has people upset. and the subsequent discovery of how little prize money their is, investment on part of the riders/builders, and that in order to compete riders have a waive RB of any liability.

the sport has evolved, bikes have evolved, riders have evolved, the event has evolved. It's time for Red Bull to evolve too.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
It would be interesting to see it evolve into a week of a building/jam format. That would avoid weather stops and people hitting ridiculously gnarly stuff for the first time when it's all on the line. I'd watch a couple hours of footage from that for sure. But it would have a lot less drama. Seeing how these guys deal with the pressure of the moment in competition is part of the draw.
Meh......like a lot of people I couldn't care less about aggy's feelings while he's sitting at the top of a ridge stressing about wind with 10 minutes to drop or go home.

But there would be a lot more footage (possibly fewer injuries) and a lot less bitching if it were a jam event.

Put up an invite list, host/feed/house/provide water trucks and have a two day jam session. Windy up top? try something new on a huge jump down low. Riders (and not fucking snowboard judges) vote for a best run/best trick and redbull gives a little money. You could easily do it with the cost being similar. I mean really, that's kind of what the fest format was after, and does anyway.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,655
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NORCAL is the hizzle
Meh......like a lot of people I couldn't care less about aggy's feelings while he's sitting at the top of a ridge stressing about wind with 10 minutes to drop or go home.
That's because you have a cold, black heart my friend.

There may be a lot of people who don't care but there are definitely a lot of people who do. They're selling drama, and lots of people are buying.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Really? (serious question)

Everyone I know hates American coverage of the Olympics because they spend way more time on back story than actual event footage. I know I'm the same way when comes to rampage. I want to watch awesome riding, not inner poetry being written.

I mean it's one thing to hype up the event before anyone's riding, but a jam format would not only be a lot more chill for the riders, this whole 'pressure' thing would shift a little. I mean it gets windy in virgin around noon. That's a fact and it kind of sucks holding a contest in it. Everyone already knows it sucks. Turning the event into a soap opera doesn't make the riding any better.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
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NORCAL is the hizzle
Yes, competition creates additional drama. Absolutely. Thrill of victory, agony of defeat, etc. People get kicks out of seeing other people handle (or fail to handle) high-pressure situations. Lots of people are interested in that aspect.

A Rampage without a winner will be a less dramatic Rampage. But I'm not saying that's a bad thing - it would be good to have less drama over the weather, judging, etc., and focus purely on the riding. I'm all for it. I just don't know if the money will flow into the event without the drama of competition.