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rangers and tickets?

seand

Monkey
Nov 22, 2003
791
0
seattle
got a call yesterday with some disturbing news...

aparently there are (as of 1130am yesterday) rangers at the bottom of two seven possibly handing out tickets to bikers and there are signs going up about not building? i havent been out there in quite some time, but ehhhhh this is upsetting.

can anyone confirm this? hate to think we officially lost yet another spot to ride....

*sigh*


EDIT: according to the amazing detective work of certified drunk, this is just another HUGE bullsh1t story made up by seanb....GOOD WORK BUDDY!
 
Jun 18, 2004
946
0
seand said:
got a call yesterday with some disturbing news...

aparently there are (as of 1130am yesterday) rangers at the bottom of two seven handing out tickets to bikers and there are signs up about not building? i havent been out there in quite some time, but ehhhhh this is upsetting.

can anyone confirm this? hate to think we officially lost yet another spot to ride....

*sigh*
I can't confirm the signs but I was at 38 and (for the first time) told that I can't ride there and that the junior Ranger's knew about "...all of the trail damage..." at 38 and 27... she said they were out warning people about "...proper trail usage..." ... so I was warned and we left... that was about a month ago... havn't been out that way since... the junior rangers indicated that they know about most of the building along the I-90 except for the peeler...
 

trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
Str8OutaBallard said:
"...all of the trail damage..." at 38 and 27... she said they were out warning people about "...proper trail usage..."
Maybe its just semantics but by saying there was "trail damage" seems to me to imply that the trail is allowable if said damage was repaired and/or avoided in the future?
Did they give you any insite into what proper trail usage might entail? I mean, besides walking them...
 

seand

Monkey
Nov 22, 2003
791
0
seattle
let's keep the peeler outta this convo... i think scott and crew would be most appreciative of it!

i know the rangers know about the various trails at 27...earthcore also has done surveying of the damaged areas...i dont know if 27 is recoverable because of the water rerouting, trees that have been cut down and nailed into...and HUGE holes created for dirt use...atleast that was the feeling i got from a ranger a few weeks back when I was loading up the car...i was warned back then that some huge effort was underway and it was only a matter of time...guess that time is now?
 

Langer

Monkey
Mar 27, 2004
254
0
Hiding
We need something organized like the NSMBA down here. It might help our cause if we look organized and do trail maintence with input from the Rangers/DNR. It will also help if we can get trails called something else other than "illegal" by the Rangers. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

Maybe the BBTC can help?
 

carbuncle

Monkey
Dec 2, 2004
364
0
Edmonds, WA
Say what about the BBTC? My impression of them is that they don't give a rat's ass about freeriding! Prove me wrong, and I will rejoin and do every work day I possibly can for them next year. Justin, you here? Please, please prove me wrong (and no, Collonades does not count)!
 

evilbob

Monkey
Mar 17, 2002
948
0
Everett, Wa
carbuncle said:
Say what about the BBTC? My impression of them is that they don't give a rat's ass about freeriding! Prove me wrong, and I will rejoin and do every work day I possibly can for them next year. Justin, you here? Please, please prove me wrong (and no, Collonades does not count)!
First off I want to say I am not picking on carbunkle here.
Sometimes it takes a little individual initiative to get somethings going. We can't expect to get the BBTC (or anyone else) to start a positive dialogue with the forrest service or DNR over any land use. With that said the BBTC as well as other groups are great resources for contact info, support structure and project/proposal structure. It still takes an individual/s to get something started. Getting it started does not mean waiting for some group to get it done for you. Justin is spread pretty thin in his support as are many members of the BBTC on existing projects. To do more projects the BBTC needs to have individuals/groups who will inititiate, champion and own cradle to grave the issues that are desired to change or improve. It is alot of personal time and commitment, this means you would give up some ride time to persue something that will be good for others sometime in the future. I myself have been very suprised by the number of BBTC members that I have found of late to be more freeride/DH oriented and am certain if approached in the right manner would be valuable support in a well planned, positive pursuit of trail developement/usage. Just remember it takes time and commitment, so decide if you can commit the time. If you can't please don't go out and rip a new section and spoil the time somebody else is putting in and the things that are secret :sneaky: and allready exist, lets keep them that way for now if we can :D
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
evilbob said:
First off I want to say I am not picking on carbunkle here.
Sometimes it takes a little individual initiative to get somethings going. We can't expect to get the BBTC (or anyone else) to start a positive dialogue with the forrest service or DNR over any land use. With that said the BBTC as well as other groups are great resources for contact info, support structure and project/proposal structure. It still takes an individual/s to get something started. Getting it started does not mean waiting for some group to get it done for you. Justin is spread pretty thin in his support as are many members of the BBTC on existing projects. To do more projects the BBTC needs to have individuals/groups who will inititiate, champion and own cradle to grave the issues that are desired to change or improve. It is alot of personal time and commitment, this means you would give up some ride time to persue something that will be good for others sometime in the future. I myself have been very suprised by the number of BBTC members that I have found of late to be more freeride/DH oriented and am certain if approached in the right manner would be valuable support in a well planned, positive pursuit of trail developement/usage. Just remember it takes time and commitment, so decide if you can commit the time. If you can't please don't go out and rip a new section and spoil the time somebody else is putting in and the things that are secret :sneaky: and allready exist, lets keep them that way for now if we can :D

what he's trying to say is that instead of bitching about it and waiting for someone else to take action, take some action yourself. Any of you go to meetings with land managers to try and devise plans for the future? To figure out what the problems are?To make a plan? Anyone educate yourselves on what the liability issues REALLY are so that you can represent your interests?

Sure it sucks to go to meetings, wade through red tape, make plans,negotiate, read documents, get approvals. It's red tape coated with molasses. And even if you get approval to do what you want, you can be assured they aren't going to provide you with money or resources. So then you have to volunteer labor and fundraise. It takes some vision and a lot of committement to see things through but it can be done.

Scorched earth gives you the satisfaction of instant gratification, but yields very little for the long term aside from negatives.

I see this pretty clear my side of the state, having been instrumental in getting an advocacy based MTB club going here this year. Everyone wants to wait on the sidelines to see what we are going to do for them, or to tell us what they think we should be doing, but very few are willing to step forward and actually help make it happen.
And for those of us involved in the actual "doing" - there's only so much that a limited amout of people can get done.

I challenge those of you who are always complaining about this(it's a regular theme on this board) to go to a club meeting,find out what commitees there are, if a committee to address your issue doesn't exist, offer to chair it; find out what needs to be done next, get involved, volunteer your time, help with some tasks, or donate some money if you don't have time. There are plenty of success stories out there for models.

geargrrl
 

Borneo

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
1,011
0
Duvall
Like I said before grrgrrl, do what ever you can not to get burnt out and too flat a forhead from banging against the wall of change.
The sport need more like you. :)

(Hoping Justin pipes up. But, knowing him, he's letting us squabble on the side lines first.)

Yeah, there's FR stuff in the works. Just takes time (and bodies).
 

geargrrl

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2002
2,379
1
pnw -dry side
LOL, things are good over here. I just had to say that. You know us grrls, if we don't bitch once in a while we blow.

I can't wait for the Beacon Ladder park, the plans are pretty darn cool. ( I've seen them, neener neener)

gg
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,189
0
in a bear cave
It's pretty pointless to attack BBTC or any bike advocacy group if you actually want something done. What other club in King County is gonna even want to affiliate with you?
There are plenty of groups like WTA and the Sierra Club that would love to see more dissent among mt. bikers so as to close off all trails to bikes, so we can enjoy a nice ride on forest road. WooHoo it's hard enough to get someone to ride with me now when i post on here. Think of if all we had were gravel roads. Dude let's go ride 7174 it's gnar!

The process has been slow, alot of people raise good points on why.

The facts remain all mt. bikers even if you're into nothing but XC need to rally and try to support the DH scene (yes FR is just DH but with a F and a R and DH is XC just all D and no X). Simply because big bikes are not going to disappear, and more secret trails will be built as long as there is no where local to ride.

But big bike lovers need to work towards legitamacy.

If BBTC sucks so bad why don't you start up your own big bike advocacy group? i'm sure people in BBTC would join up and help. Or join STM or just start a private club.

i'd love to be able to ride something like RatPac somewhere in the hills above Issaquah or wherever.....

Wouldn't it be awesome to have the day where forest service rangers would be handing out tickets to dumb hippies who were dangerously hiking up DH trails?
 

Dave_Schuldt

Monkey
Jun 13, 2004
343
0
Seattle
Remember you can go to jail for building trails. It's a lot of work for the FS to bust someone but if they feel they need to set an example they will.
 

lucky13

Chimp
Jun 3, 2005
66
0
Seattle, WA
Why do I never hear of people buying their own chunk of land to build permanent trails on? And don't tell me you can't afford it with +$3000 bikes and the SUV to take it places with.

Meetings ARE boring, but worth it if you want a place to ride. My guess is that most big-bike stuff will have to remain in Canada untill someone opts for the above.

I meant to ask in the other thread about "redbull": What ever happened to the World Cup course at Crystal Mountain Resort?
 

Borneo

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
1,011
0
Duvall
I did. Location was pretty important for me when we moved out from the city in '96 and even though I'm under 3 acres, I still have about half a mile stuffed in here all Tapeworm style. My "homage" to Tom and the other builders if you will. Several features have been added to it since then and I occasionally have people over to play. But, both my insurance company and legal representation are telling me I'm playing with fire everytime someone else rides my stuff. It may be naieve, but I just hope for the best in people. Stating simply, "you may not sue me. But, your next of kin will."

Mass buying of property for DH/FR purposes will come after it's reasonable to do it for XC purposes since that's seen as less of a risk.

This generic subject comes up here on the PNW forum probably every other month and it's getting really old. Perhaps a sticky would be in order that goes something like this:
"I don't like the man tearing down my DH/FR trails I built on their property and why isn't the BBTC doing anything about it?"

Sit in a few meetings or shut up.
 

Langer

Monkey
Mar 27, 2004
254
0
Hiding
I am not b****ing about BBTC. They do a great job in representing XC type trails(St. Edwards, Middle Fork Snoqualmie, etc). But until there is some sort of organization, you can kiss FR trails good bye!

Quit bitchin and get organized people!!!! :nope:
 

juice

Monkey
Nov 11, 2003
189
0
Seattle
BBTC is definitely committed to solving the lack of downhill/freeride - and not just because I'm the executive director and a freeride junkie, but because its mountain biking, and its our mission to improve mountain bike access.

Its all fine and dandy to say that, but what can actually be done and what are we doing? This is the hard part since there aren't any easy solutions in the Seattle area.

Freeride is a bit of a weird word since it means different things to different people. To me it means Fromme, Seymour or Cypress style riding with lots of vert and super technical with a bunch of enhanced or man-made features. To other folks it means some ladder bridges and drops on xc rides or skills park type stuff with flow lines like SST. So rather than talk about freeride, I think about the kinds of riding that we need and don't have.

Skills parks are an easier problem to solve since there's more land available that works for this kind of thing. All you need is a couple acres of forest and permission to go build and get creative. We're all over this, and hope to announce a project with King County before 2005 ends. Its hung up right now as we work through contract, risk and insurance issues, but I'm confident we'll get it figured out. For a skills park think xc trails with bridges, log rides, drops etc., some dirt jumps, mt. bike flow lines, and some harder trails with a lot of ladder work and tons of jumps.

Freeride and downhill that incorporates a lot of vert is harder since you need good forest, well draining soils, the availability of lots of rock to armor the steeper sections, and accessibility. Most of this land in the Seattle area is either private timber land or National Forest. The private land is mostly owned by Hancock, a huge national investment company, and they're not interested in working with us that closely. The Forest Service is hamstrung by all the rules and public process, so its a 5-10 year process to get permission for new trails. They finally see the need for legit downhill/freeride, but the key is finding the right chunk of land and then going through the loooong process to get it approved.

That means our short term plan needs to be centered around finding an appropriate chunk of land that is managed by a local government (city or county), has good vert, and has access. We're looking.

There is one possibility out there right now, but its surrounded by private land without public access. Sugarloaf Mountain just to the East of Maple Valley. Its got 600 feet of vert, is nice and rocky, and isn't too far from where most of us live. The problems are the access, there's a bunch of shafts from coal mining, and the forest isn't that great (lots of alder and young, struggling Doug Fir), but that's probably why it could work for bikers - the well organized anti-bike lobby isn't interested in it. The key to making Sugarloaf work for us is buying an adjoining parcel so there's public access. To do this we could either try to get King County to appropriate the funds, or start writing grants and bring in the money ourselves. Or one of you could be our sugardaddy and buy the land for us. http://dnr.metrokc.gov/wlr/LANDS/natural/sugarloaf-mountain.htm

The other possibility is to get Snoqualmie to open back up for summer ops, but that's another thread.

I'm paid to facilitate this stuff, but one person who has their hands in 10 different projects isn't enough, it takes an army of volunteers. What we need to make any of this happen is 1 or 2 dedicated people to organize our efforts, thats how BBTC and NSMBA work. This means working with me to set up regular meetings, keep the pressure on even when it doesn't look like we're getting anywhere, and always be looking for new opportunities. If we approach this as working against the land managers we'll never get anywhere, but if we continually work with them to try and identify new opportunities, eventually something will happen. Then we need to stick with the process and write grants to bring in the money to git'er done. It isn't sexy, but it works.

If you're patient enough to read through this entire post, you might just be the right person for the job!

Justin
BBTC's E.D.
206-524-2900
justin@bbtc.org
 

scotteric

Chimp
May 11, 2004
66
0
seattle
so has anyone actually been there since shauns original post to see if what he mentioned is actually real????? so far it seems like conjecture to me.
 

seand

Monkey
Nov 22, 2003
791
0
seattle
scotteric said:
so has anyone actually been there since shauns original post to see if what he mentioned is actually real????? so far it seems like conjecture to me.

yeah, i like to make up stories....it is so much fun! LOL


frank was who gave me a ring...corp failure on here...ask him to take some pics of the signs he said he saw next time he is up there and post em...

i havent been up to two seven in a while..so I am just going on what I was phoned about...as much as i like the idea of getting a ticket for riding my bike...i could really find better ways to spend my time :)

look at is as a friendly heads up to all those who are going to wander out there...also, look at it as a question to anyone who may have more info regarding this.
 

Borregokid

Monkey
Aug 12, 2004
427
0
Cle Elum
Informed sources told me that the situation was normal and nothing had changed in that little spot by the freeway. Of course when we get news over here in CE it takes about eight weeks to get here.
 

carbuncle

Monkey
Dec 2, 2004
364
0
Edmonds, WA
Whoa, touched a nerve there! So, a couple of points: I never have said the BBTC was anything but good, it's just that freeriding isn't their demographic. And it isn't. Justin, you guys do great work, and are getting even more effective as you go along. I love the BBTC, it's just that we, and by we I mean those interested specifically in places like SST and the exits and seeing some Shore-style stuff that is legal and accessible, need to make it happen. Andy and all the folks at SST are doing it, the builders in the woods are doing it, (here's the million dollar question) should we organize and do it? I've said put up or shut up about offering my skills trailbuilding, and I'll say it about organizing: if people want to start an NSMBA type of freeride specific organization I'll offer up my lovely garage in Puyallup as the first meeting place. BBTC shouldn't be saddled with the responsibility for issues that doen't speak to their core constituents, so we should address them ourselves. Justin is obviously supportive of freeriding, so if we start a Washington Freeride Association or something I'm pretty certain that we could consult with BBTC on who to talk to and the most effective way to do it, and work with them to address our issues together while they work on the projects that are their specialties. Justin makes a great point in many of his posts in various threads like this: it takes alot of boring meetings and structural organization to get this kind of thing together but BBTC did it, NSMBA did it (and are more than likely also able and willing to shed light on how to get this going for those who were brave enough to commit to it) and certainly we could do it here if enough people would commit the time. Consider the gauntlet thrown, is anyone willing to take up the challenge?
 
Jan 24, 2004
476
0
Duthie
I'll jump on this train. I'm not a member of the BBTC and had chosen to
turn my cheek from the stories I had heard from friends when first entering the Westside fray (originally an Eastsider). Recently I had the chance to ride with Justin on his then new Vpfree on a tour of a local freeride trail. Upon meeting him and many others involved with the BBTC I came to realize that BBTC has a strong contingent of FR/Dh minded folks looking for the same thing. Justin is a good guy for sure and has good ideas and plans for the huckers. It seems to me that it would be counterproductive to start something new instead of supporting an organization that already has a foothold and some connections with people that matter. BBTC from what I've always heard was catered to the lycra crowd. But, have any of you noticed how many of those lycra clad folks are donning the baggy shorts and long travel bikes as of late? It seems easy to say that many of those same people are already involved with the BBTC and are probably looking for this change in focus as well.
 
Nov 14, 2004
516
0
W.Seattle
So heres the deal, I was up there Sunday of last weekend not any bikers really to seen.
so I park my truck and start getting my self ready to head up to our trail and I see a f-150 parked with u.s forest dept parked 2 cars over as I started my hike one of them got out and stopped me and asked me what I was doing I said I was on a hike and then I asked why he asked. Well from what he told me thing were not too happy at the so called twenty seven mtb trail. The timber rights on that land have already been sold to a logging company and the concern is the recovery of the area after the logging is complete.
With how much damage has been to the ground with the drainage and tree removal done by ****. The D.n.r and forest service are not pleased to say the least. Also, poaching has been a problem to for them, deer and elk carcasses have been found in the woods skinned and the neck busts removed.

So that what I was told and don’t really know what to make of it.

Hope we see happier days...
Frank.

P.s. signs to be post in coming weeks. alonge with the threat of tickets. (not a done deal)
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,189
0
in a bear cave
carbuncle said:
Consider the gauntlet thrown, is anyone willing to take up the challenge?
*crickets*

if you want my honest opinion i think BBTC is that homely chick at the prom, but the only one that want's to dance with you.
 

trailhacker

Turbo Monkey
Jan 6, 2003
1,233
0
In the hills around Seattle
Corporatefailure said:
...With how much damage has been to the ground with the drainage and tree removal done by ****. The D.n.r and forest service are not pleased to say the least.
Is **** a person or a censored cuss word?
When we had our little run in with the USFS at Snoqualmie they said they didn't care about any place that wasn't USFS controlled and that included 27?
The unhappy part sounds just like what the sherrif or what ever he was that I ran into out at Duvall said.
 
Nov 14, 2004
516
0
W.Seattle
the **** is a person.
the D.n.r handles state land, and the usfs handles government land.
but yet the Usfs has the final word on the sale of state timber and mineral, water and so on rights.
thats why the usfs is mixed up in this.
 

Certified Drunk

SVT-Lightning
Feb 17, 2002
842
0
Zippy's Burgers
First off did anyone get a ticket? Or is this another one of seanb bullsh1t stories? Seanb seems to be putting his nose in the wrong places AGAIN! This seems to be like last time at SST with "The Rules" another one of seanb bullsh1t stories.
Seanb go back to Canada NOW!
 

Snacks

Turbo Monkey
Feb 20, 2003
3,523
0
GO! SEAHAWKS!
Certified Drunk said:
First off did anyone get a ticket? Or is this another one of seanb bullsh1t stories? Seanb seems to be putting his nose in the wrong places AGAIN! This seems to be like last time at SST with "The Rules" another one of seanb bullsh1t stories.
Seanb go back to Canada NOW!
Hahahah!