Care to back up your statement? Why not just say what you think:Hello Kitty said:
Gimme a "G", gimme an "R", gimme an "I" "P" "S" "H" "I" "F" "T" . . .
Yaaaaaaay GRIP SHIFT!!!
Rapid rise derailleurs?
- Thread starter genpowell71
- Start date
Gimme a "G", gimme an "R", gimme an "I" "P" "S" "H" "I" "F" "T" . . .
Yaaaaaaay GRIP SHIFT!!!
Sanjuro, I understand what you're saying about multiple movements to downshift with low-normal vs. one stroke with high-normal. But ultimately it's still quicker and easier to down shift with low-normal. This is because less pedal rotation is required at the crank to get the job done. You only have to let off the gas for a split second. Bam bam bam, done.
Hey Im not sipping on the shimano hatoraide I was shimanos pimp for 8 years before I tried the sram gripshift I had the old school and the new shimano stuff and both worked well however the sram X.0 works better .Jeff 151 said:
Eh. I've gotten used to them, so they are OK. But I wouldn't rave about them, and if you like any kind of hydra brake besides Shimano, u r f.genpowell71 said:
If you are a newbie, the mneomic is simple, down is harder, up is easier. But I hate being forced to use something, like Microsoft.
Given time, you will get used to anything and be able to react and anticipate. My race hardtail came with RR, my Sugar with the older XT, and I put SRAM grip shifts on my winter bike (less maintenance). The biggest problem I have is when I change bikes and have to spend a few hours "rewiring" my brain.
Change is hard, but not impossible.
Wardo
Change is hard, but not impossible.
Wardo
Yeah but I look at it like this. Why fix it if it aint broke. My pods work great and I can move 4 gears to a time when I hit the downhill. These new STI levers are kewl looking and all, but I like what I have now. And yes I've heard the saying about how all things will improve and get better. Doesnt mean I have to change at technology's pace.
8 clicks on Rapid rise actually is faster than 3 clicks of the high normal system. I couldn't believe it at first, but it's true. You can dump from smallest cog to largest almost as fast as a gripshift.
budgetrider said:
I would have to concur with that. My only gripe with the rapid rise is when the cable and housing bind the least bit, the shifting goes to hell. But other than that... :love:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a second go-around for this "rapid-rise" stuff, isn't it? I seem to remember a buddy with a Moots back in the late 90's with a RR rear der. 
I don't think it ever faded away. I think RR derailleurs had a resurgance thanks to Dual Control. I would not want to use a regular derailleur if I was using DC shifters.SkaredShtles said:Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a second go-around for this "rapid-rise" stuff, isn't it? I seem to remember a buddy with a Moots back in the late 90's with a RR rear der.
caputo1989 said:
Never had that problem.
haven't had any acidental ****ting probas at all with my X.0 twisties going over drops (4ft) steps rocks bumps jumps etc etc.
I love them :love:
I think rapid rise/low normal is stupid. I had it on a bike for over a year and honestly gave it a fair shot. It didn't take me long to get used to it, it just takes too long to downshift through more than one gear. Sometimes you just have to shift down a few gears at a time or you can be screwed trying to get up a short steep incline. On the flip-side, I've never seen a downhill section where I absolutely needed to upshift through two or three cogs in an instant or else come to a stop. With rapid rise, you get a delay when downshifting and instant upshifting. Stupid.
You can't force a downshift with rapid rise and I think that is why they do it - it's more idiot-proof. But if you know how/when to shift, downshifting through two or three cogs with a high normal system is no problem.
You can't force a downshift with rapid rise and I think that is why they do it - it's more idiot-proof. But if you know how/when to shift, downshifting through two or three cogs with a high normal system is no problem.
So they've been making them all this time? When did they start making RR?sanjuro said:
According to the guru Sheldon Brown:
Low-normal/High-normal
Modern derailers are spring loaded, pulled one way by the spring and the other way by the control cable. A "low-normal" derailer is one in which the spring pulls it toward the lower gear(s). If you release the tension on the cable, it will shift to the lowest gear.
Up until the late 1950s, all spring loaded derailers were low-normal type. When Campagnolo introduced the parallelogram-type rear derailer, they changed to high-normal, and most rear derailers made since then have been of the high-normal type.
The major advantage of high-normal rear derailers is that, when used with a low-normal front, both levers move in the same direction for double shifts. This makes it easier to perform a double shift with down-tube shift levers.
The major advantage of low-normal derailers is that they generally downshift a bit better than high-normal units.
Since the late 1990s, Shimano has attempted to revive the low-normal rear derailer design, using the trademark "RapidRise." This has met with increasing acceptance by cyclists.
Sun Tour used to make high-normal front derailers. The principal advantage of this was that the front and rear shift levers moved in the same direction to either raise or lower the gear, which was less confusing for beginner cyclists.
Low-normal/High-normal
Modern derailers are spring loaded, pulled one way by the spring and the other way by the control cable. A "low-normal" derailer is one in which the spring pulls it toward the lower gear(s). If you release the tension on the cable, it will shift to the lowest gear.
Up until the late 1950s, all spring loaded derailers were low-normal type. When Campagnolo introduced the parallelogram-type rear derailer, they changed to high-normal, and most rear derailers made since then have been of the high-normal type.
The major advantage of high-normal rear derailers is that, when used with a low-normal front, both levers move in the same direction for double shifts. This makes it easier to perform a double shift with down-tube shift levers.
The major advantage of low-normal derailers is that they generally downshift a bit better than high-normal units.
Since the late 1990s, Shimano has attempted to revive the low-normal rear derailer design, using the trademark "RapidRise." This has met with increasing acceptance by cyclists.
Sun Tour used to make high-normal front derailers. The principal advantage of this was that the front and rear shift levers moved in the same direction to either raise or lower the gear, which was less confusing for beginner cyclists.
sanjuro said:
Yeah well not that anyone asked but I think DC is stupid too.
The same bike I mentioned above that had RR also had DC, and even after about a year I would still get undesired shifting, usually in tech sections where I wanted it the least. (I ditched the DC in favor of regular triggers so my opinion on RR is based in part on time with DC and part with triggers.)
I will always prefer separate shift and brake levers, that's another reason I prefer campy to shimano for my road bikes.
I assume you mean the thumb levers on the campy 'brifters'. I have used them both, and I do like the thumbers.OGRipper said:Yeah well not that anyone asked but I think DC is stupid too.
The same bike I mentioned above that had RR also had DC, and even after about a year I would still get undesired shifting, usually in tech sections where I wanted it the least. (I ditched the DC in favor of regular triggers so my opinion on RR is based in part on time with DC and part with triggers.)
I will always prefer separate shift and brake levers, that's another reason I prefer campy to shimano for my road bikes.
However, I am a loyal Shimano man, thanks to some bad experiences with Campy from the last century.
Shimano is definitely messing up, though. DC gains you no advantage (although I use it with no problems). Rapid Rise also gains nothing.
No, the campy brake lever feels more positive to me because it only moves in one plane - the brake lever and both shifter triggers are decoupled. You don't need to touch the brake levers to shift, and the brake levers don't swing like with shimano. It is that brake lever swinging action that I don't like about STI or DC. You've ridden both so I hope you understand what I mean, even if you don't agree.sanjuro said:
It's just a personal preference thing. I rode a dura-ace bike on a demo program for almost a year and have lots of rides on other shimano bikes. It works great but I prefer the campy lever action. The campy hoods have always felt better to me too.
No doubt about it. I wondered about that, because I ride the hoods 95% of the time, which is perfect for the thumb levers.OGRipper said:
This is going to sound stupid, but I like the shift housing outside of the bike. I never cared for aero setups, and my old road bike still has cables out the hoods.
I can depend on the cables as a last ditch grab if I come off the bars. It is also important if I do a Museeuw, time trial position but without tt bars, i.e. forearms on the tops.
Having separate brake and shift levers are not as important in road biking. I cannot think of a situation where you need to downshift and brake at the same time, and you cannot upshift and brake with campy.
Well I'm bored today so I'll respondsanjuro said:
:I hate the external cables on the shimano system, I think it looks cheesy as hell. I would have mentioned it earlier but didn't want to sound petty.
IMO aero is much cleaner and works great. Aero cables stopped binding about 20 years ago. It was the day they decided to put springs in the levers so the cables are being pulled from both ends. Bar tape is cheap but you can always use those little couplers so you don't need to re-wrap if you want to replace a housing.
But your last comments are most puzzling to me. Never downshift and brake at the same time, are you serious? Did you mean upshift? I downshift and brake at the same time on almost every ride, when I'm coming to a stop and want to get into a lower gear when I get started again, or when I'm descending some steep sketchy thing with a steep upslope right after. Happens all the time and is one reason I never liked grip shift for a rear derailleur. And although I don't do it very much, you can definitely upshift and brake with a campy lever - why not? Thumb the trigger and finger the brake...?
I tend to agree that having separate shifting and braking is less important in road biking, but for me that's because I use a lot less body english on my road bike and am much less likely to lean on my brake levers.
I always get downshift and upshift confused. In a car, downshift means an easier gear. I think downshift is moving to a smaller cog, i.e. harder gear.OGRipper said:Well I'm bored today so I'll respond
I hate the external cables on the shimano system, I think it looks cheesy as hell. I would have mentioned it earlier but didn't want to sound petty.
IMO aero is much cleaner and works great. Aero cables stopped binding about 20 years ago. It was the day they decided to put springs in the levers so the cables are being pulled from both ends. Bar tape is cheap but you can always use those little couplers so you don't need to re-wrap if you want to replace a housing.
But your last comments are most puzzling to me. Never downshift and brake at the same time, are you serious? Did you mean upshift? I downshift and brake at the same time on almost every ride, when I'm coming to a stop and want to get into a lower gear when I get started again, or when I'm descending some steep sketchy thing with a steep upslope right after. Happens all the time and is one reason I never liked grip shift for a rear derailleur. And although I don't do it very much, you can definitely upshift and brake with a campy lever - why not? Thumb the trigger and finger the brake...?
I tend to agree that having separate shifting and braking is less important in road biking, but for me that's because I use a lot less body english on my road bike and am much less likely to lean on my brake levers.
Shifting to a bigger cog is important when braking, but you cannot do that with Campy or Shimano. I suppose you could have a circumstance where you descend into a corner leading to an uphill. I always point though, it didn't affect Lance though...
I understand why people like aero setups. Frankly, one reason why I like the cables out the brake levers was that Sean Kelly, my favorite ride, was super old school, with non-aero cables, even one of the last to go to clipless.
I have no logical reason for liking non-aero routing, just like I have no logic in liking Shimano.
Yeah it can be confusing but a bigger gear usually means gear inches, not the size of the cog. Funny, I think it's actually easier to downshift (to an easier gear/bigger cogsanjuro said:
) while braking with STI, but I can do it with campy - index finger brakes and middle finger shifts. Anyway time for a rainy commute, later.
Take it to the roadie forum, you Roadies. 