[Dog Welder]

Alright so I'm going through paramedic school right now and we've begun our hospital clinical rounds where we learn how to do patient assessments, start IVs, etc. Now those who know me, know that I'm a pretty amiable guy. It doesnt' take much to keep me happy and I can pretty much get along with just about anyone, I'm just cool like that.

So back to the clinicals. I've begun to notice that doctors, granted not all but the ones I've met, like to talk down to me or talk about me within ear shot like I"m not even there. They don't acknowledge your existence unless you can actually provide some sort of assistence. Very high brown, uppercrust, boys club mentality. They tend to view us firefighters as pests that generally get in the way, that we're unintelligent, knuckle draggin blue collar stiffs. When in reality I was hired with 4 other guys, everyone of us had a Bachelor's degree and one had a Masters.

It seems that a lot of the doctors, young and old, are REALLY knowledgeable, but not smart. To me someone who is smart is someone who is able to think in and out of the box to solve a problem, someone who is able to think beyond the establishment. ie: mathematicians, physicists, engineers. The doctors whom I"ve met know a lot and are very educated but smart they are not. If anything I've learned medicine is a grey area with very few black and white solutions, yet the doctors can't see beyond the established knowledge. Doctors know so much at a level beyond what I can comprehend yet many lack the basics upon which everything is built on. I actually watched a senior trauma doctor do chest compressions on a guy's stomach. I would sooner trust a grandmother who just took a CPR class to perform it on me than I would a neurosurgeon.

Lastly, cuz I could go on for pages, many doctors "say" that they chose their field because the "want to help people" If you truly wanted to help people as a doctor, you'd be living in Africa, or South American working for some nonprofit group, barely making a living. Want do you normally see instead? Doctors in Porches and Beemers making over $250,000 a year sometimes. I mean its good to reward yourself but if you were really in it to help people you'd be driving a Civic and donating your money to enhance your fellow man.

Anyways rant over....just blowing off steam or else I'm going to drop kick a doctor in the ER one of these days.

 

[Ciaran]

:I'm with stupid:
After working at Kaiser Permanente all I can say is that I hope I NEVER need a doc. Some are morons, and the rest are assholes, with a few exceptions. Sooo many nurses get treated like crap by docs that know less than they do. (This is just my personal experience at KP)

Though I kinda disagree with the "helping people" thing. If they were truly only in it for the money they would have become lawyers. Law school is shorter, and you make more money. I think that most docs really do go into it wanting to help people as well as make lots of money. How they end up is a different story. They all whine about malpractice insurance and such, but they still have enough money for that Porsche.

The I.T. guy is much like a bartender... every client wants to talk.

 

[benno]

They tend to view us firefighters as pests that generally get in the way,

Maybe you are. I'm a med student, I get in the way of docs and slow them down, and yeah, they don't like it. There's very, very few docs who are actually enthusiastic about teaching. If you were a qualified paramedic and had to drag some kid around that didn't know anything and doubled your workload you'd probably get pissy too. I would.
(no offence intended BTW, it's just how it happens)

I'm not sure where you're going with your point about the grey area and established knowledge. I think most docs are well aware that there are very few black and white situations in medicine. Not sure what that has to do with established knowledge though... EBM maybe?

and money... hmmm. I was talking to a mate the other day and wondering if 4 years of unemployment in med school,(plus 4 years in my previous degree) and a few years of SFA pay after that will turn me into some materialistic, merc driving prick. I'm soooo f*cking sick of not having money.

 

[scrublover]

heeee! welcome to my world. i've actually met and worked with many, many docs who are *not* the stereotype nose in the air types. however, the good ones still tend to be the minority. don't let it get you down. there are a lot of good docs out there. the bad ones? don't let them push you around. you are not some handservant, and make sure they understand that. if you've got an order or something that you think doesn't sound right (especially if from a res or intern - no offense guys) don't be afraid to question things, and say something. you'll get more respect in the long run doing that vs. meakly doing anything some doc orders without questioning.

in crit care areas, we tend to see the same docs all the time. once they get to know you, and learn/know that you know what you're doing, things get better, and most of them actually treat you as a person rather than some faceless and nameless underling. you'll also have much more leeway in what you can do vs. working non-crit care areas. generally.

teaching facilities are different animals entirely. my experience working at a large teaching hospital (beth israel deaconess, in boston) was downright scary at times. gently nudging some of the residents and interns in the right direction,after watching them order the wrong stuff was sometimes very difficult. sometimes involving going over their heads to an attending. the young docs especially have not learned that they can trust us called "underlings" to do our jobs, and that we actually know what we are doing.

all that said, some of the most craniorectally inverted docs i've ever met have also been the most talented/skilled. if i'm in the ER, OR, or ICU all f%$#ed up some day, those are the guys i want working on me, bad bedside manners be damned. it is quite possible to respect their skill and knowledge, but not their personality.

dave (med/surg ICU RNsince 1999)

 

[I Are Baboon]

You want to see docs get pissed? Try getting them to punch a timeclock.

 

[stosh]

Insurance companies don't pay them to think outside of the box.

 

[brungeman]

The funniest thing happened when I sliced the hell out of my hand in a quad wreck... I get to the hospital, they make me wait for almost an hour. by the time I got back into the ER, I had bled a huge puddle of blood all over their floor (it leaked out of the drenched T-shirt I had it wrapped in) I get to the back and this nurse looks at it and saw a doctor coming she bolts out of the curtain and hurried up to grab some "nurse practitioner" (sp) and pulled him in to look at it. He went to get some supplies, and told the Doc that he had it under control... I was then told by the original nurse that "the Doc's in the ER are hacks at putting in stitches, and really couldn't care less. They are all in a hurry" she said.

I asked what is the difference between a Nurse Practitioner, and a Doc, and she said "Money and Attitude" I chuckled, and she said "no the NP's here do as much as the Docs, but don't get paid anywhere near doc's money, and they don't treat the rest of the staff like leppers"

 

[SkaredShtles]

What a surprise. People who spend year upon year in college and spend *massive* amounts of cash to enter a profession with giant earning potential in which they get to play God....... they tend to be a bit elitist?

Shocking. Absolutely shocking.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Say what you want, but I want a hightly eduacated, asshole, arrogant, wealth doctor using all the latest and greatest medicine working on me when I have a medical issue... and not some paramedic.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Say what you want, but I want a hightly eduacated, asshole, arrogant, wealth doctor using all the latest and greatest medicine working on me when I have a medical issue... and not some paramedic.

Don't be such a ninny.

 

[stevew]

I don't have to respect someone in order for them to save my life. I can punch them in the teeth if they have been a dick later, after I am recovered.

 

[BurlyShirley]

2 types of people who earn the right to be a-holes:

Doctors

Airline Pilots

Your life's in their hands. They have more responsibility than one can imagine. I respect both immensely, and havent had a bad experience yet. Great fellas IMO.

 

[MMike]

2 types of people who earn the right to be a-holes:

Doctors

Airline Pilots

Your life's in their hands. They have more responsibility than one can imagine. I respect both immensely, and havent had a bad experience yet. Great fellas IMO.

What about roller coaster and Tilt-a-Whirl carnies? They could kill you just as easily.....

 

[brungeman]

Say what you want, but I want a hightly eduacated, asshole, arrogant, wealth doctor using all the latest and greatest medicine working on me when I have a medical issue... and not some paramedic.

that is assuming you make it to the hospital.... without a competant paremedic you may not make it!

 

[Slugman]

Insurance companies don't pay them to think outside of the box.

Bullseye! (some) Doctors are restricted in what they can do by hospital administration rules that force them to only treat a patient a certain way. This can be due to fear of litigation or due to reimbursement issues.

I work in the medical device field; I'm an engineer who designs spinal implants. I can tell you that there are PLENTY of incredibly bright guys out there who are seriously restricted by the hospitals. A lot of them make more money from inventing new systems (typically a partnership with a company) than they do from their 'real' job.

That being said - there is a very fratboy mentality within the medical field. The residents and students that I see in the OR are treated like dirt, and constantly berated for not knowing their sh*t. It gets a little better as they get more experience - but it's basically like they are hazed for YEARS!

Just my $.02

 

[disasterarea]

not knocking all the hard work that these people went through to obtain their degree/licence and "the right to be a-holes", but it reminded me of comments made by a mate - who flys for a living "Airline pilots are just glorified bus drivers" and another one by a doctor "doctors are just glorified technicians." Perhaps they have something there...

2 types of people who earn the right to be a-holes:

Doctors

Airline Pilots

Your life's in their hands. They have more responsibility than one can imagine. I respect both immensely, and havent had a bad experience yet. Great fellas IMO.

 

[-dustin]

where Toshi at?

 

[Jeremy R]

Very high brown, uppercrust, boys club mentality.

Bryant Gumble?
Or did you mean brow.

 

[Dog Welder]

Say what you want, but I want a hightly eduacated, asshole, arrogant, wealth doctor using all the latest and greatest medicine working on me when I have a medical issue... and not some paramedic.

Trust me when you've seen how bad some doctors are. You'll much prefer a paramedic working you up. Plus Field medicine and emergency room medicine are two completely different beasts.

 

[scrublover]

Trust me when you've seen how bad some doctors are. You'll much prefer a paramedic working you up. Plus Field medicine and emergency room medicine are two completely different beasts.

Yep. PA's and NP's are pretty rockin', too. Unless you are having big time issues/problems beyond their scope of practice, they are very capable. But with far less attitude.

I haven't known a ton of medics, but those that I do know decently are pretty damn good.

There are a ton of good docs out there, too, just to make sure this thread isn't all about bashing docs. The guy who fixed up my hand a few months ago at the Keystone base clinic was a very cool older doc. Retired, but still picking up a few days here and there just to keep his hand in.

 

[Silver]

What do you call the guy who came in last in his class at medical school?

 

[benno]

What do you call the guy who came in last in his class at medical school?

a paramedic

<runs and hides>

Joking!

 

[MtnbikeMike]

What do you call the guy who came in last in his class at medical school?

A doctor?

 

[scrublover]

What do you call the guy who came in last in his class at medical school?

someone who is gonna' have a bitch of a hard time with internship and residency?

 

[benno]

Class rankings and academic performance aren't that important IMO. Everything I've experienced in med school so far suggests that it in no way prepares you for graduation. That's why interns are incompetent. There are some very, very 'smart' people in my class that I wouldn't let within 10 feet of me if I was crook (common sense is a beautiful thing).

 

[scrublover]

Class rankings and academic performance aren't that important IMO. Everything I've experienced in med school so far suggests that it in no way prepares you for graduation. That's why interns are incompetent. There are some very, very 'smart' people in my class that I wouldn't let within 10 feet of me if I was crook (common sense is a beautiful thing).

Oh I know. Just didn't come through well the way I wrote it. I just meant that if you aren't all that hot with the book side of things, it can make other parts pretty difficult as well.

The ones you mean, who can regurgitate anything from text, yet aren't able to properly tie their shoes? Plenty that are the other side of that coin as well. Horrible in school, yet are great in an actual patient care setting.

I work with/know a few docs that are great to talk with, great personalities, great guys, smart, know their stuff types. And I wouldn't have them working on me for anything!

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Many people in my family are or were in the medical profession and it has more than its share of MDs who are arrogant assholes. I think the attitude is encouraged by traditional training. Growing up in this community has caused me to avoid medical care unless absolutely necessary. If I get messed up I do go to a doctor and entrust myself to the system. A couple times I have vetoed proposed treatment.

The system works after a fashion for well understood maladies, with all its warts and pimples.

 

[Toshi]

where Toshi at?

been up in a TINY town in idaho this week, way smaller than the one i've been at the last few weeks. managing my own inpatient. yes, patient, just one. heh.

What do you call the guy who came in last in his class at medical school?

a family practioner? sure, he or she will have an md, but as scrublover points out it'll be tough to land a good residency. that person would probably end up in a community residency in a non-competitive field.

other random thoughts: NPs and PAs are good, especially in their ability to take the time to chat with people. however, their underlying knowledge of pathophys is far less than that of a doctor. will this matter if you're being treated for a sore throat? no. but in some cases it's crucial.

paul, stand up for yourself. i'm an example that it's possible to not be run over by attendings, at least as a student. if they pimp you, answer or find the answer. if they're a jerk then ignore the rudeness, get the job done and get away from them...

 

[reflux]

Like any stereotype, it's impossible and unfair to call all doctor's arrogant assholes. I too, have had some so-so experiences with the medical profession, but when it really mattered, my doctor came through and did his job perfectly. To be honest, I know nothing about his personal life and couldn't care less about his personality. What really mattered to me, was that he knew how to perform his job and get the results he wanted. The dcotor before him however, wasted my valuable time and prolonged a diagnosis by about 8 months...bastard.

 

[Dog Welder]

been up in a TINY town in idaho this week, way smaller than the one i've been at the last few weeks. managing my own inpatient. yes, patient, just one. heh.

a family practioner? sure, he or she will have an md, but as scrublover points out it'll be tough to land a good residency. that person would probably end up in a community residency in a non-competitive field.

other random thoughts: NPs and PAs are good, especially in their ability to take the time to chat with people. however, their underlying knowledge of pathophys is far less than that of a doctor. will this matter if you're being treated for a sore throat? no. but in some cases it's crucial.

paul, stand up for yourself. i'm an example that it's possible to not be run over by attendings, at least as a student. if they pimp you, answer or find the answer. if they're a jerk then ignore the rudeness, get the job done and get away from them...

Very true...I talked with my sister about this and she says its a common theme in teaching hospitals where they see hundreds of med, nursing and paramedic students come in and out yearly. They have no stake in being nice to you since you might be gone soon. She has her own practice and says that if yer a dick you won't be able to keep quality people to work for you. I may have jumped the gun with my comment but I will revise if necessary after I finish my clinical rounds. No worries about me standing up for myself...in fact that will probably get me into more trouble than if I just folded.

I've already gotten into an argument with a doctor when I snaked her intubation. She got in my face just as I was about to insert the scope and said "That's my intubation!" my reply was "Alright ...so in a couple years when you roll your Porche I'll try and get that tube in to save your life. Cuz you know I only have a month to get good at this skill whereas you got 4 years. "

 

[Toshi]

you also might want to consider that people who decide to do residency or practice medicine in socal are a different breed, perhaps a ruder breed, than others in the rest of the country... maybe it's true, maybe it's a horrible regional stereotype, hmm

 

[Dog Welder]

Well tell you this the vast majority of them at USC are either from Asian or Jewish families who traditionally valued the profession not for its alturism but more for its social stature and monetary advancement.

 

[Toshi]

didn't you live in CO at some point? never to late to return