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Rear Floater on my AC

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
hahaha....all I can say is when I got my brake therapy floater for my Trek it made a huge difference...good product, good service...ride on!!...D
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
kicknitLivE said:
Hmmm my banshee never had any brake related jack or lock up in the rear. Wonder why you don't see any bikes of this design with a floating brake option. My ME degree is on schedule, actually.
And congratulations on your upcoming ME degree, with a dose of open mindedness and objectivity, it can be a fun bit of knowledge to have. But in the meantime, here's a little homework assignment:

Draw a free body diagram. Show the force of the contact patch of the tire with the ground while braking. Assume rigid bolts attaching the brake caliper to the suspension. Calculate the interaction of all forces involved.

Now found a choppy piece of ground where you can ride your banshee with or without brakes. Go thru at a steady speed without touching the brakes. No go thru at the same speed, and hit the rear brake (only) hard. Observe if the suspension feels the same under both conditions.

I would bet money (say the price of a floating brake), that you would notice a significant difference in the two conditions.

Note:, you will not notice this if you do not hit the brakes. Note: you will not notice this if the ground is smooth. Note: you will not notice this if you have an iron butt.

Many people are absolutely shocked when they put a floater on and realise what they thought wasn't there, was in fact very much there, they had just become accustomed to the behaviour and assumed it was normal.

Now I want a 5 page write up on my desk by monday morning......

boy, sometimes it feels good to get cranky late at night...
 

DHS

Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy
Apr 23, 2002
5,094
0
Sand, CA
ok, already you have a session 7 floater. thats awsome. how much for the banshee one?
and can i still get the carbon floater arm for my Racelink....
 

ChrisRobin

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
3,346
190
Vancouver
LOL!!! I love this.

The only time I 'heard' that a floating brake wasn't working out was in MountainBikeFiction where the 2003 Giant DH team were trying them out on practice runs. If I remember correctly, a few of them liked it and the others didn't because it would add extra weight and "it's another device that can break" (what could possible go wrong anyway??). Someone feel free to correct me on this...otherwise, I keep hearing people ranting and raving on how much of a difference it makes.

It would be cool to try one on a 2003 Nicolai Nucleon ST. It currently squats during hard braking which isn't a really bad thing yet it would nice to try one just for the fun of it.
 

scottishmark

Turbo Monkey
May 20, 2002
2,121
22
Somewhere dark, cold & wet....
shock said:
Many people are absolutely shocked when they put a floater on and realise what they thought wasn't there, was in fact very much there, they had just become accustomed to the behaviour and assumed it was normal.
not as shocked as they are if they go back to riding without one! well at least thats what convince me to part with my $$
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
ChrisRobin said:
It would be cool to try one on a 2003 Nicolai Nucleon ST. It currently squats during hard braking which isn't a really bad thing yet it would nice to try one just for the fun of it.
I actaully tried it and I liked the way it felt without a floater mounted but that's just me...I'll see if I can find it for you...D
 

ChrisRobin

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
3,346
190
Vancouver
BMXman said:
I actaully tried it and I liked the way it felt without a floater mounted but that's just me...I'll see if I can find it for you...D
No kidding...what kind of difference did you notice with the floater on and then back to not having it?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
But Shock, what about my bike? The rear end is horribly stiff and un-supple when I apply my brakes...
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
ChrisRobin said:
No kidding...what kind of difference did you notice with the floater on and then back to not having it?

that's just it...I couldn't really feel a difference and it added 2 lbs....so I only had it on for a week...D
 

Pau11y

Turbo Monkey
I took my Tomac 204 out for the first time this weekend for a hike-a-bike session. I got a floater for her when I began the build despite James' (Go-Ride) opinion that it doesn't need one. All I can report is she feels exactly like my FSR and Army in the studders despite being a single pivot. Actually, I'm a bit afraid to ride her w/o a floater since I'm going to a single pivot from FSRs and Army/Discos. I couldn't really turn her loose on the section I rode but there was no skipping in the rear at all.
BTW, Brian had to do some special things to get my floater to work, including re-machining the pivot around the 12mm axle. The dude WILL hook you up on CS!
And Brian, I may still visit the Hadley option instead of running the Edco Bigrocks. Think you can hook me up with one on the package price? :D



Oh just FYI, to whoever it was that posted the cost of a DH frame... You can get the same Tomac 204 for under $1K now from PreOwned Bikes.
 

WheelieMan

Monkey
Feb 6, 2003
937
0
kol-uh-RAD-oh
ChrisRobin said:
LOL!!! I love this.

The only time I 'heard' that a floating brake wasn't working out was in MountainBikeFiction where the 2003 Giant DH team were trying them out on practice runs. If I remember correctly, a few of them liked it and the others didn't because it would add extra weight and "it's another device that can break" (what could possible go wrong anyway??). Someone feel free to correct me on this...otherwise, I keep hearing people ranting and raving on how much of a difference it makes.

It would be cool to try one on a 2003 Nicolai Nucleon ST. It currently squats during hard braking which isn't a really bad thing yet it would nice to try one just for the fun of it.
Yeah I remember reading that article. Obviously alot of pros 1) don't feel that a floater is worth the weight or 2) prefer their bike to squat significantly under braking. Fabien Barel's floating brake geometry actually causes the bike to squat more than if it didn't have a floater.
 

WheelieMan

Monkey
Feb 6, 2003
937
0
kol-uh-RAD-oh
Pau11y said:
I took my Tomac 204 out for the first time this weekend for a hike-a-bike session. I got a floater for her when I began the build despite James' (Go-Ride) opinion that it doesn't need one. All I can report is she feels exactly like my FSR and Army in the studders despite being a single pivot. Actually, I'm a bit afraid to ride her w/o a floater since I'm going to a single pivot from FSRs and Army/Discos. I couldn't really turn her loose on the section I rode but there was no skipping in the rear at all.
BTW, Brian had to do some special things to get my floater to work, including re-machining the pivot around the 12mm axle. The dude WILL hook you up on CS!
And Brian, I may still visit the Hadley option instead of running the Edco Bigrocks. Think you can hook me up with one on the package price? :D

Oh just FYI, to whoever it was that posted the cost of a DH frame... You can get the same Tomac 204 for under $1K now from PreOwned Bikes.
Nice looking bike! I love the design of those frames. Looks like you have a mega slack headangle there!
 

Pau11y

Turbo Monkey
Yeah, that Mr Dirt is one big fork. But the Tomac has, by design a pretty steep head angle. So it actually works out quite well w/ that fork. I think the lines of the frame/fork actually makes it look a lot more slack than it really is.
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
DHS said:
ok, already you have a session 7 floater. thats awsome. how much for the banshee one?
and can i still get the carbon floater arm for my Racelink....
All our (Brake Therapy) floaters run about $295, unless there's some special machining, like for the Tomac/Edco hub combo.

And yes we'll make you a carbon rod for your racelink. It would be a on-off, unless we start to get demand for them, so email me at braketherapy@therapycomponents.com, and let me know the length and end requirements, and I'll give you a quote.
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
ChrisRobin said:
LOL!!! I love this.

The only time I 'heard' that a floating brake wasn't working out was in MountainBikeFiction where the 2003 Giant DH team were trying them out on practice runs. If I remember correctly, a few of them liked it and the others didn't because it would add extra weight and "it's another device that can break" (what could possible go wrong anyway??). Someone feel free to correct me on this...otherwise, I keep hearing people ranting and raving on how much of a difference it makes.

It would be cool to try one on a 2003 Nicolai Nucleon ST. It currently squats during hard braking which isn't a really bad thing yet it would nice to try one just for the fun of it.
That article was pretty accurate (I was there conducting the test). It went like this..

1) I put the floater on Jared's, Dustin's and Tara's bike, I think it was Tuesday before race weekend at Big Bear. They went down Westridge. I was standing near the bottom, and they all stopped with smiles on their faces, telling me how good it was. They mentioned that they could even use their rear brakes in the corners with the bike leaned over, and the rear tire would still grip, where it would hop sideways without the floater. I was pretty stoked that they stopped in the middle of their run to tell me, it was very cool.

2) before prctice, they decided to take the floater off, telling me that they figured the course would be smooth enough that they wouldn't need it. I was kinda bummed, but oh well.

3) After the first day, as the course got rougher and rougher, they all put them back on for the rest of the weekend, including the race.

4) The next race was Snowshoe mudfest, and Jared and Dustin took them off, saying nothing would matter, including having a flat tire. As rough as that course was, I thought it was an odd choice. Tara left hers on.

5) Leaving that race, Tara hurt her foot when the team truck crashed, and I don't think she raced DH any more that year. Shortly after, Dustin was hurt, I believe at the next event in Canada (Mt Saint Ann?), and I don't think he raced any more that year. Jared continued to take it off and on, depending on whether he thought the weight was worth the performance. In particular, he did use it at Schweitzer, telling me it would be stupid to race without it.

In any case, they all liked it, and I still don't think they were making the best decision taking it on and off, but I'm biased. Those units were totally stock, with the aluminum rod/steel rod ends, and added less than 1 pound of weight. When they first ran them at Big Bear, they all mentioned that they couldn't feel the weight, but they sure could feel the performance gain, ie, they went faster. I think the weight issue can be alittle bit of a head game sometimes.

BTW, there have NEVER been any failures of our stuff, at least that I'm aware of.
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
The Rose said:
Yo MikeD, what you need is a sawzall and a welding rig, that should loosen the rear end up a bit.
Yeah, that was one of th eearly designs known as the unified front and rear triangle. Generaly not known for plushness.

Try taking the caliper bolts out, that should let it float enough so you don't feel it when you hit the brakes
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
BMXman said:
that's just it...I couldn't really feel a difference and it added 2 lbs....so I only had it on for a week...D
Just to clarify, that must've been a floater that Nicolia makes as an option, right? as we don't make one for that bike.

Also, none of our floaters weigh over a pound, in fact the one we supply to the Kona team adds less than 130 grams, or about 1/4 pound
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
BMXman said:
that's just it...I couldn't really feel a difference and it added 2 lbs....so I only had it on for a week...D
Again, just to clarify, you're talking about putting it on the Nicolai, and not your Deisel, right?
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
Pau11y said:
I took my Tomac 204 out for the first time this weekend for a hike-a-bike session. I got a floater for her when I began the build despite James' (Go-Ride) opinion that it doesn't need one. All I can report is she feels exactly like my FSR and Army in the studders despite being a single pivot. Actually, I'm a bit afraid to ride her w/o a floater since I'm going to a single pivot from FSRs and Army/Discos. I couldn't really turn her loose on the section I rode but there was no skipping in the rear at all.
BTW, Brian had to do some special things to get my floater to work, including re-machining the pivot around the 12mm axle. The dude WILL hook you up on CS!
And Brian, I may still visit the Hadley option instead of running the Edco Bigrocks. Think you can hook me up with one on the package price? :D



Oh just FYI, to whoever it was that posted the cost of a DH frame... You can get the same Tomac 204 for under $1K now from PreOwned Bikes.
Glad you finally got a chance to ride that thing! Let me know when you're ready to go Hadley, we'll get you hooked up.

Brian
 

shock

Monkey
Feb 20, 2002
369
0
WheelieMan said:
Yeah I remember reading that article. Obviously alot of pros 1) don't feel that a floater is worth the weight or 2) prefer their bike to squat significantly under braking. Fabien Barel's floating brake geometry actually causes the bike to squat more than if it didn't have a floater.
Again, of course I'm biased, but I think the weight issue is kind of overblown (at least with our floaters, I don't know about 2 pound nicolia floaters). No one has EVER mentioned to me that the bike feels heavier, or too heavy, or that they notice the weight when adding the floater. And they always go faster with it.

As for Fabien's geometry, I was directly involved with that (we supply them with the floater). I don't agree with it, but he has his entire bike set up around that, including front and rear springs and damping. It seems to work for him, but I think he's the exception to the rule. I don't know of anyone else that likes that setup.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
shock said:
Yeah, that was one of th eearly designs known as the unified front and rear triangle. Generaly not known for plushness.
Feh, and Weagle says Evil bikes are high-tech.
shock said:
Try taking the caliper bolts out, that should let it float enough so you don't feel it when you hit the brakes
You're supposed to use bolts on your caliper?? Uh-oh... er, rather, I'm right with you.