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Rear Shock Knowledge / Rant Space

FarkinRyan

Monkey
Dec 15, 2003
610
192
Pemberton, BC
Ohlins literally built the original Double Barrel old ones even have the Ohlins logo on them. You kids and your rap music and your not knowing your history...


 
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mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,787
1,477
Denver, CO
Ohlins literally built the original Double Barrel old ones even have the Ohlins logo on them. You kids and your rap music and your not knowing your history...


That’s funny because the article you linked to says Öhlins did most of the design, but they are not a shock maker.
If you look closely in the above pic, it does not say Öhlins, Swedish Made. It says Öhlins Technology Inside.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,756
426
I haven't had a ton of time to spend on the monkey lately, but figured I'd answer a few questions about Kitsuma for you to do with what you will.

Still valving rather than shimstacks. The biggest hurdle to getting the shock to handle the way we wanted it to from a tuning perspective was on the rebound side of things, and we've done some nice reworking there, particularly in the high speed range that changes the curve somewhat to build up more HSR damping faster and give it a greater range.

Since I'm currently helping cover service side of things, I'm also pretty excited about the changes we made towards our sealing. Our old shock wasn't a lemon, and we've gotten it pretty dialed at this point through plenty of updates and changes, but there have definitely been some structural workarounds that were getting long in the teeth, and I'm pretty excited about this one from a reliability standpoint.

It still isn't user serviceable. Needing a decent amount of specialty tooling, a vacuum fill machine, and its a more complex shock than some of the others on the market - the fact is, we're not prepared to open that up to everybody - there are a lot of people capable of making it happen with no issues, but there are even more people that will fuck up the rebuilds and leave us biting off more than we can chew with trying to help them out of their self dug hole. I know that's a deal breaker for some of y'all, and I respect that. Service isn't a big money maker for us, it's more of a method for QC and ensuring nobody rebuilds their shock themself and then kills themselves through poor reassembly. It's a point of strong contention within the building - I'd love to see us open it up and let people take some personal responsibility, but it is what it is. That said, I don't see this policy changing any time soon.

Firsthand experience is: I like the increased rebound range, I always maxed out my high speed rebound previously and this change was a nice improvement (as I'm no longer doing it, and it feels more controlled), it also has a little more control on recovering from your bigger hits and drops.

I was pumped on the quick adjustments - being able to not hold up the crew to make a quick adjustment feels a lot more natural and less of a "hey everybody wait for me while I dick around with my suspension." I've always been pretty particular about my suspension, but never liked messing with it mid ride, and this is a nice improvement for me. Probably doesn't matter for some of you, I liked it though.

Long and short - if you liked our old shock, this is a nice improvement in pretty much every way. If you hated our old shock, this is a nice improvement in pretty much every way, but you might still hate it. There's plenty of cool shocks on the market though, so it's a good time to be riding bikes.

I probably won't answer any more questions on the Monkey for awhile because I'm super busy with moving and work is busy, but feel free to ask me anyway - and if you hit me up at work I can spend as much time as you want talking about it. Ask for Will.

Cheers everybody
 

FarkinRyan

Monkey
Dec 15, 2003
610
192
Pemberton, BC
That’s funny because the article you linked to says Öhlins did most of the design, but they are not a shock maker.
If you look closely in the above pic, it does not say Öhlins, Swedish Made. It says Öhlins Technology Inside.
You are correct Ohlins designed it but it was built by Cane Creek. The Ohlins USA arm of the business is not a manufacturer but Ohlins very definitely are, that part of the article is confusing.

Apparently a Cane Creek shock is somehow more difficult in concept and execution to service than a Fox DHX2 / Float DHX2 as well, you could have fooled me. I would rather service a DB Coil over a DHX2 any day.
 
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6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
9,124
5,972
I think there might be new versions of the Cane Creek Inline shocks coming out soon. I'm starting to see the coil and air versions for $340ish. I'd been considering an air IL, but with only a month left of trail bike season for this year I think I might save my freedum tokens...
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,057
637
La Verne
I think there might be new versions of the Cane Creek Inline shocks coming out soon. I'm starting to see the coil and air versions for $340ish. I'd been considering an air IL, but with only a month left of trail bike season for this year I think I might save my freedum tokens...
Brah twin tubes are for Road race bikes.
Low speed adjusters and the high speed is for potholes on an otherwise smooth track.
Degressive junk.

Ditch those linear shims for hsr adjust.
What a joke
 
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tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
714
77
Mexico City
I think there might be new versions of the Cane Creek Inline shocks coming out soon. I'm starting to see the coil and air versions for $340ish. I'd been considering an air IL, but with only a month left of trail bike season for this year I think I might save my freedum tokens...
Nah
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
11,747
986
Hypernormality
I have an old shock question; I am restoring a 2002 Giant AC for fun. Rear shock is a Rockshox Pro Delux. The damping and compression aren’t so hot anymore. Anyone know if it is the type of design where you can change the oil without having to depressurise the thing or will it explode in my face?
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
13,283
5,014
AK
I have an old shock question; I am restoring a 2002 Giant AC for fun. Rear shock is a Rockshox Pro Delux. The damping and compression aren’t so hot anymore. Anyone know if it is the type of design where you can change the oil without having to depressurise the thing or will it explode in my face?
I don't think there's any rear shock like that, they all require hundreds of pounds of pressure with some sort of IFP or bladder that keeps the system consistent without sucking in air. For forks that aren't under such leverage and pressure, they can often use some kind of coil spring backed IFP, but the size and pressure constraints in a rear shock make that impossible. Rule of thumb for rear shocks is whether it has an external reservoir or not, there's always a pressure backed piston or bladder. The question is more about if you can service it with normal tools or you need some special needle/pressurizing fitting.
 

toodles

Turbo Monkey
Aug 24, 2004
3,692
2,195
Australia
I don't think there's any rear shock like that, they all require hundreds of pounds of pressure with some sort of IFP or bladder that keeps the system consistent without sucking in air. For forks that aren't under such leverage and pressure, they can often use some kind of coil spring backed IFP, but the size and pressure constraints in a rear shock make that impossible. Rule of thumb for rear shocks is whether it has an external reservoir or not, there's always a pressure backed piston or bladder. The question is more about if you can service it with normal tools or you need some special needle/pressurizing fitting.
Its a RockShox Pro Deluxe. I'd be surprised if it has any oil or pressure left inside it.
 

VMARTINEZ

Monkey
May 23, 2005
300
17
I have an old shock question; I am restoring a 2002 Giant AC for fun. Rear shock is a Rockshox Pro Delux. The damping and compression aren’t so hot anymore. Anyone know if it is the type of design where you can change the oil without having to depressurise the thing or will it explode in my face?
Find Jerry Vanderpool on Facebook or Instagram and ask him. He use to run Hippie Tech suspension tuning and know's those shocks really well.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
310
351
Resurrecting this thread. What's the least bad, off the shelf air shock for a moderately progressive bike with a decent pedal platform? I've got a GG with both Smash and Gnarvana stays, and am in the process of having my EXT redone to be 230x65. I'm looking for a backup/Smash air shock to use whenever the EXT gets serviced, or if I decided to set up it as more of a trail bike. Oh, and it should be better than this piece of shit DPX2 Performance that I currently have (medium compression, light rebound tune, no LSC adjust).

I'm sorta tempted to get a used Super Deluxe RCT/Ultimate, in case I decide to hold on to it and throw money at it (Tractive).

Or I guess I could have Avvy do the SSD tune to my current DPX2 (can't do the HSB since it's not Elite/Factory). Is that worth doing, or lipstick on a pig?

Without spending silly amounts of money, this is what I'm seeing available on PB:
2018 Super Deluxe RCT ~$250
2018 Super Deluxe RCT w/ MegNeg ~$400
a bunch of 2018/19 X2s for around ~$400
A couple 2020 SD Ultimates for $450
 
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mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,787
1,477
Denver, CO
I would do this: Super Deluxe for $250 and save the $150 compared to the other shocks and it towards Tractive tuning when it needs a rebuild.
 

toodles

Turbo Monkey
Aug 24, 2004
3,692
2,195
Australia
Without spending silly amounts of money, this is what I'm seeing available on PB:
2018 Super Deluxe RCT ~$250
2018 Super Deluxe RCT w/ MegNeg ~$400
a bunch of 2018/19 X2s for around ~$400
A couple 2020 SD Ultimates for $450
The MegNeg cans aren't that expensive. I'd get the one without and do it myself if it was required.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
310
351
How about a DVO Topaz? Very low stiction in this one, not sure about tuning options though. I was happy with mine on Canfield frames.
Had one, hated it. The 3 position compression adjuster is too soft in the open mode, too firm in closed and not right in mid. The rebound was slow. And I can't translate bike feel into fucking with pressure in the little bladder.

Plus one of my neighbors has one on his Ripmo AF, and the fucking thing leaks air every ride, and he's probably only put like 150 miles on it.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
310
351
i'll sell you the superdeluxe from my nomad for a good price. it's 230 x 65. it's a coil. but that's better. :twitch:
Intriguing. Let me see if the guy selling the RCT air responds to my PM. I agree coil is better, but I did kinda want to make the Smash setup *lighter* than the Gnarvana, not heavier. RCT version? Spring included?
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
3,636
1,888
UK
Wot toodles said.
Not all bikes/riding even benefits from fitting a megneg can
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,285
640
SWE
Here is a link to the service manual for the EXT Storia / Arma

Service is quite easy to do and doesn't require the specific tools. A torx T20 with a hole in the center is needed to access the rubber grommet pressurising the IFP. Then some metric bolts, a M2 for lifting the pressure cap and a M6 for the IFP. A pin spanner opens the bearing assy.
20210524_144729.jpg


The oil coming out was black which gave me little indication about its possible origin. I went for Motorex Fork oil 2,5w because it is around 15 cSt @40°C and is a very common viscosity for damper. If you know something about the oil used by EXT, please let me know.

Edit: Wladoil makes the oil for EXT with the following spec:
Density at 20°C0.80 Kg/Lt
Viscosity cSt at 40°C9
Viscosity cSt at 100°C3
Viscosity Index325
Flammability>150°C
Sliding Point-60°C
 
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Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,285
640
SWE
For the piston nerds out there: comp then rebound
20210524_145456.jpg
20210524_145451.jpg


The surfaces in direct contact with the shims seem to have some roughness. Could that be done to allow the shims to lift more easily by lowering the capillary forces?
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
44,914
10,565
Sleazattle
The surfaces in direct contact with the shims seem to have some roughness. Could that be done to allow the shims to lift more easily by lowering the capillary forces?

I'd hazard a guess that it is to reduce hysteresis. Two very flat surfaces wetted with oil can take a lot of force to separate.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
1,511
763
Styria
Here is a link to the service manual for the EXT Storia / Arma

Service is quite easy to do and doesn't require the specific tools. A torx T20 with a hole in the center is needed to access the rubber grommet pressurising the IFP. Then some metric bolts, a M2 for lifting the pressure cap and a M6 for the IFP. A pin spanner opens the bearing assy.
View attachment 160551

The oil coming out was black which gave me little indication about its possible origin. I went for Motorex Fork oil 2,5w because it is around 15 cSt @40°C and is a very common viscosity for damper. If you know something about the oil used by EXT, please let me know.
Very helpful, thanks a lot. I just received my Storia and was not very keen on sending it away for every service. Very appreciated.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
1,511
763
Styria
Here is a link to the service manual for the EXT Storia / Arma

Service is quite easy to do and doesn't require the specific tools. A torx T20 with a hole in the center is needed to access the rubber grommet pressurising the IFP. Then some metric bolts, a M2 for lifting the pressure cap and a M6 for the IFP. A pin spanner opens the bearing assy.
View attachment 160551

The oil coming out was black which gave me little indication about its possible origin. I went for Motorex Fork oil 2,5w because it is around 15 cSt @40°C and is a very common viscosity for damper. If you know something about the oil used by EXT, please let me know.
Btw, did you take measurements of your shim stack? Interested in the dimensions used and the differencese to mine. I guess you also have a custom tune.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,285
640
SWE
Btw, did you take measurements of your shim stack? Interested in the dimensions used and the differencese to mine. I guess you also have a custom tune.
Sorry I didn't bother...
It is a custom tune for slightly lighter rider on a Ransom.
I didn't open the secondary damping circuit either. I went in mostly to change the oil.
I took those pictures if that helps
20210524_145033.jpg
20210524_145026.jpg
 

toodles

Turbo Monkey
Aug 24, 2004
3,692
2,195
Australia
I'd hazard a guess that it is to reduce hysteresis. Two very flat surfaces wetted with oil can take a lot of force to separate.
That's an impressive detail, I wonder if the same could be achieved by having a few microns of shoulder around the centre fixing hole or whether it would adversely affect the "check-valve" aspect of the shims. Be interesting to dyno that option and see.
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
366
129
For the piston nerds out there: comp then rebound
View attachment 160552View attachment 160553

The surfaces in direct contact with the shims seem to have some roughness. Could that be done to allow the shims to lift more easily by lowering the capillary forces?
Thanks for proving this is possible. I have the Storia and Era coming on a new bike soon. I'm not fond of sending things out when the can be done at home.