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Reasons for Iraq war stand the six-pillar test

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
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The Cleft of Venus
Reasons for Iraq war stand the six-pillar test
DailyGlobe | 19-October-2004 | Andrew Cline

In the wake of U.S. weapons inspector Charles A. Duelfer's report concluding that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction, a re-examination of the case for war made by President Bush is in order.

In the first presidential debate, Sen. John Kerry said, "The reason for going to war was weapons of mass destruction, not the removal of Saddam Hussein." Yet before the war, Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair consistently stated that Saddam had to be removed from power and that his holding WMD stockpiles was only one reason this must be done.

Bush and his prime ally in the war, Blair, frequently cited intelligence -from the CIA and foreign agencies, including French, German and Russian intelligence services and the United Nations - that indicated Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction. How entrenched was the belief that he had WMD? Duelfer notes that three days before the invasion of Iraq - which was three months after Saddam informed his lieutenants that he had no WMD - the United States received word from foreign intelligence sources that Saddam planned to use WMD against coalition troops.

Nearly everyone believed Saddam had WMD stockpiles. But neither Bush nor Blair rested the case for war entirely on this belief. They based the case for attacking Saddam on six pillars:


o Saddam possessed WMD (now apparently refuted by the Duelfer report).

o He had ties to terrorists, including members of al-Qaida (confirmed by the 9/11 commission).

o He had never abided by the terms of the Persian Gulf War cease-fire (confirmed by the United Nations).

o He was engaged in a systematic pattern of deception regarding his weapons capabilities (confirmed by the Duelfer report and chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix).

o He intended to develop additional WMD programs (confirmed by Duelfer).

o Saddam's removal would help in the war on terror by initiating the democratization of the Middle East.​

In his 2003 State of the Union address, Bush made clear that he believed war was justified even if Saddam was not an immediate threat to the United States: "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words and all recriminations will come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

This is the essence of the Bush Doctrine, which holds that the United States reserves the right to use military force pre-emptively. That is, the United States can and must act against perceived threats before those threats turn into wounds.

In the first presidential debate, Kerry said, "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for pre-emptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control. No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to pre-empt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America."

Kerry appears to confuse pre-emption with unilateral action. There is a tremendous difference. American presidents always have reserved the right to the unilateral use of force. But the Bush Doctrine represents a new step in that it reserves to this country the right to eliminate a threat that is not, to use Bush's word, "fully" developed.

With respect to Iraq, Bush clearly and repeatedly stated that Saddam must be removed from power before his regime posed an "imminent" threat to this country and the rest of the world - meaning that action was justified even if he was not directly imperiling the United States with WMD as, say, Soviet President Nikita Khrushchev did in 1962. Blair, Australian Prime Minister John Howard, Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar and Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen agreed, as did about 30 other nations that joined the war effort.

Notably, Kerry does not directly dispute the Bush Doctrine itself. In the first debate, he even conceded that America has a right to act pre-emptively (though it is unclear whether he understood what he was saying). Yet he simultaneously says that the absence of WMD in Iraq proves the war was unjustified. One cannot hold both of those positions and remain intellectually consistent.

Under the conditions Bush and Blair laid out before the war, Saddam's pursuit of WMD and his connections to terrorist networks (not to mention his 12-year violation of the gulf war cease-fire) were sufficient grounds for his removal from power - regardless of whether active WMD stockpiles were buried beneath the Iraqi sand.

Remove the WMD pillar that partially upheld the rationale for war, and under the Bush Doctrine the rationale still stands on the remaining five pillars.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
N8 said:
o Saddam possessed WMD (now apparently refuted by the Duelfer report).

o He had ties to terrorists, including members of al-Qaida (confirmed by the 9/11 commission).

o He had never abided by the terms of the Persian Gulf War cease-fire (confirmed by the United Nations).

o He was engaged in a systematic pattern of deception regarding his weapons capabilities (confirmed by the Duelfer report and chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix).

o He intended to develop additional WMD programs (confirmed by Duelfer).

o Saddam's removal would help in the war on terror by initiating the democratization of the Middle East. [/INDENT]
Bloody hell N8, I thought it was going to be better than that.

The belief in WMD was so widespread that Robin Cook (Leader of the House of Parliament and UK Foreign Secretary from 1997-2001) actually resigned from the cabinet as he knew the intelligence was overdone:

o Saddam possessed WMD (now apparently refuted by the Duelfer report). One down...

o He had ties to terrorists, including members of al-Qaida (confirmed by the 9/11 commission).
No more than any head of state who has not helped Al-Qaeda.....

o He had never abided by the terms of the Persian Gulf War cease-fire (confirmed by the United Nations).
Aye, but that was not the reason given.

o He was engaged in a systematic pattern of deception regarding his weapons capabilities (confirmed by the Duelfer report and chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix).
No reason to go to war, it was unsuccessful...

o He intended to develop additional WMD programs (confirmed by Duelfer).
Is the US the thought police? Can we invade states because of their desire to do something that they are already prevented from doing?

o Saddam's removal would help in the war on terror by initiating the democratization of the Middle East.
Except it currently has increased terrorism and democracy is yet to appear. And given the US support for non democratic regimes in Saudi, Kuwait et al is clearly not a concern.

Not so many pillars left really.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
You forgot the seventh pillar, N8:

-Overextending US forces to the point that it encourages our enemies to do what they want to, openly flaunting the US's impotence to stop them, as US forces are stuck fighting a long-term, little-to-gain, everything-to-lose battle to democratize a country which posed relatively little threat until US leaders decided it would be a great idea to attack.

It's a run-on pillar, for sure, but on it, we're a resounding success.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
MikeD said:
You forgot the seventh pillar, N8:

-Overextending US forces to the point that it encourages our enemies to do what they want to, openly flaunting the US's impotence to stop them, as US forces are stuck fighting a long-term, little-to-gain, everything-to-lose battle to democratize a country which posed relatively little threat until US leaders decided it would be a great idea to attack.

It's a run-on pillar, for sure, but on it, we're a resounding success.
Talk like that is the reason Poland is leaving, you know...
 

biggins

Rump Junkie
May 18, 2003
7,173
9
so if i country is democratic it does not have terrorists? Wern't the terrorist of 9/11 citizens of the us? arent we a democracy?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
biggins said:
so if i country is democratic it does not have terrorists? Wern't the terrorist of 9/11 citizens of the us?
No, they werent US citizens.

AND, if a country is democratic, then a renegade dictator cant just spend millions financing terrorism. Pretty simple really.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,904
2,867
Pōneke
BurlySurly said:
No, they werent US citizens.

AND, if a country is democratic, then a renegade dictator cant just spend millions financing terrorism. Pretty simple really.
Doesn't seem to have stopped Bush or Sharon spending BILLIONS on terrorising Palestinians...
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
BurlySurly said:
No, they werent US citizens.

AND, if a country is democratic, then a renegade dictator cant just spend millions financing terrorism. Pretty simple really.
That's true. You can just support the regime that happens to be THE major sponsor of Islamic terrorism for 60 years, and hope for the best...
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,904
2,867
Pōneke
Yeah, I forgot about the Billions that go to Saudi....

So in reality, so called 'Democracys' (Who won your last 'election'?) are just as bad as anyone when it comes to giving money to terrorists.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Changleen said:
Yeah, I forgot about the Billions that go to Saudi....

So in reality, so called 'Democracys' (Who won your last 'election'?) are just as bad as anyone when it comes to giving money to terrorists.
That wouldn't have mattered either. Gore would have been just as bad with the Saudis.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
Silver said:
That wouldn't have mattered either. Gore would have been just as bad with the Saudis.
Kind of like Clinton was...and Bush Sr. before him.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,904
2,867
Pōneke
That's why I used the phrase 'Democracies' and not 'Just Republicans'.

No matter who wins this election, I'm sure I'm going to continue to have an issue with US policy in the Middle east. I just hope it can get a bit better than the car wreck it is now.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
BurlySurly said:
No, they werent US citizens.

AND, if a country is democratic, then a renegade dictator cant just spend millions financing terrorism. Pretty simple really.
Course they can, except they're not called terrorists but freedom fighters, you know, like the Contras.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,257
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
Damn True said:
I think we should pull everything back and let New Zealand handle things for a while.
:thumb:

and we´ll altogether join and sing (yeah, with that muslim singer and a fat joint) :p

Now I've been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun
Oh I've been smiling lately, dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be, some day it's going to come
Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,257
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
Damn True said:
They'd probably be just as effective as the UN.
effective for WHO?? that is the question....

UN is far from perfect, but somehow managed to prevent some wars here and there (unless the aggressor was from the G7), and prevent a few genocides around the globe from time to time.

But when UN is not effective for US interests.... does it means is not effective??????
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
ALEXIS_DH said:
effective for WHO?? that is the question....

UN is far from perfect, but somehow managed to prevent some wars here and there (unless the aggressor was from the G7), and prevent a few genocides around the globe from time to time.

But when UN is not effective for US interests.... does it means is not effective??????
Leaving the US out of the equation based on your assertion, what did they prevent?

War:
Did they prevent...
Pakistan v India? Nope
USSR v Afganistan? Nope
Bosnia v Serbia? Nope
Russia v Chechnya? Nope
England v Argentina? Nope

Attempted Genocides:
Did they prevent...
Hutus v Tutsis? Nope
Bosnia v Serbia? Nope
Bathists v Kurds? Nope
Sudan v Darfur? Nope

So........what has the UN done? :confused:
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,257
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
Damn True said:
Leaving the US out of the equation based on your assertion, what did they prevent?

War:
Did they prevent...
Pakistan v India? Nope
USSR v Afganistan? Nope
Bosnia v Serbia? Nope
Russia v Chechnya? Nope
England v Argentina? Nope

Attempted Genocides:
Did they prevent...
Hutus v Tutsis? Nope
Bosnia v Serbia? Nope
Bathists v Kurds? Nope
Sudan v Darfur? Nope

So........what has the UN done? :confused:

of course UN is far from perfect and not 100% effective, but overall for the world, its effect on peace (at little as you want to put it) is better what no UN at all.
and in several of the cases you mention, it has not 100% fixed things, BUT at least made them not as bad as they would have been without it.

and what is the cost of UN??? what is the alternative? a world without UN??? more WorldWars????

UN is supposed to be a higher ruling for every country in the world, that protects the rights of mankind overall. i see nothin wrong with the concept. its the gvmt of citizens who happen to be other countries.

of course problems will arise when one citizen (the US, UK, Irak, or anybody), attributes itself some sort of god-appointed rights or something over those of every other citizen-country, and rejects to obbey this higher ruling. that is what causes the disliking of UN in the some sectors of the US.


U.N. Peacekeeping Operations: Missions Accomplished

El Salvador: Ending Civil War & Holding Free and Fair Elections 1991 - April 1995

Iraq and Kuwait: Deterring Violence 1991 - 2003
Cambodia: Assisting the Rebirth of a Nation 1992 - 1993
Mozambique: Shifting from bullets to ballots 1992 - January 1995
Namibia: Creating a Free Country 1989 - 1990
Afghanistan & Pakistan: Monitoring Troop Withdrawals 1988 - 1990
Golan Heights: Maintaining the Peace 1974 - present
Suez Canal, Sinai: Silencing Weapons and Keeping the Peace ceasefire 1973 - 1979
West New Guinea: Assuring Peaceful Transfer of Power 1962 - 1963
India & Pakistan: Monitoring breaches to the peace 1965 - 1966; 1949 - present
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,257
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
for the sake of your logic, in the in-efficiency of UN.

I can say the US gvmt has failed to prevent lots of things its supposed to prevent within the 50 states. there is still drugs, murders going on, corporate fraud, etc, etc, etc....

according to your reasoning....does that mean the US gvmt should be dissolved?????
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
ALEXIS_DH said:
of course UN is far from perfect and not 100% effective, but overall for the world, its effect on peace (at little as you want to put it) is better what no UN at all.


U.N. Peacekeeping Operations: Missions Accomplished

El Salvador: Ending Civil War & Holding Free and Fair Elections 1991 - April 1995

Iraq and Kuwait: Deterring Violence 1991 - 2003
Cambodia: Assisting the Rebirth of a Nation 1992 - 1993
Mozambique: Shifting from bullets to ballots 1992 - January 1995
Namibia: Creating a Free Country 1989 - 1990
Afghanistan & Pakistan: Monitoring Troop Withdrawals 1988 - 1990
Golan Heights: Maintaining the Peace 1974 - present
Suez Canal, Sinai: Silencing Weapons and Keeping the Peace ceasefire 1973 - 1979
West New Guinea: Assuring Peaceful Transfer of Power 1962 - 1963
India & Pakistan: Monitoring breaches to the peace 1965 - 1966; 1949 - present
Some of those are really funny.
Iraq & Kuait - I was there....plenty of violence to be had.
Afghanistan & Pakistan - Monitoring something is a mission accomplished? "They ain't movin. Cool, we can go home now, our work here is done."
India and Pakistan - "Yup another day of breaches. We are getting good at this."

Standing by and doing nothing is what the UN is best at.
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,184
0
in a bear cave
Upon further inspection we've determined that the pillars are actually painted styrofoam.

Silly justification aside i've decided i'm gonna support Bush, and the beautiful people across the globe that supply us with oil. i'm gonna fill up my tank and drive to work!

Policy shmolicy it appears as if all of have blood on our hands. One side is completely blinded under a veil of nationalism while the rest of us cry when gasoline prices get raised. All the while oil barons laugh at boths sides, i mean who cares as long as the money's rollin in. Industrialism has left us with a dependance for oil that's can be equated to a junkie's dependence on heroine.

Everybody agree's that iraq is a problem, we now focus for stability in that region, when perhaps we should ween ourselves of the dependance of oil. That's the real solution, imo.