OK so i jest got back from a month in Israel. for the past week i was in Jerusalem and there are a lot of ultra Orthodox men in all black handing out pamphlets like the Mormons. The thing about these people that really makes me mad it that they spend all there time praying instead of working they are exempt from joining the military and get welfare, they do nothing to help the country all they do is drain the already strapped government for money. they also have the nerve to say that by being so religious they are better than every one else. How can Jews do that to there own home land (not serve in the army and live off the government when they are still capable of working) and then have the nerve to think they are better for devoting there life to "god."
religious Jews really piss me off (rant)
- Thread starter TheMontashu
- Start date
TheMontashu said:
Have you met my friend christianity?
I'm not normally one to defend the religious, but you really don't know what the hell you're talking about...TheMontashu said:
1. The Hasidic communities in Israel and the US tend to be very wealthy. They are certainly not on welfare, and do an incredible job of keeping their community poor off of welfare. What makes you think they don't work? There are 24 hours in a day.
2. They are exempt from the military. Uh, is it really so offensive to you that a community of people might refuse a mandatory service that asks them to commit violent acts. Do you also hate the Quakers?
3. They think they are better than everyone else. I think we all (you and I included) have suffered from that one at times. At least THEY believe that if someone joins their path, they become an equal.
Well at least they aren't mexican.....
What did the pamphlets say?TheMontashu said:
What do you mean they do nothing to help the country, the Torah is full of commandments about taking care of the poor/fatherless/widow/alien in the land - if they aren't observing those mitzvot then I'd think they aren't very religious with regards to Judaism.
Would you want to serve in an Army for a nation whose policies you don't agree with? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Ortho Jews a bit at odds with the polices of the current Israeli gov't?
Ah come on Kidwoo isn't that bad.Changleen said:
In israel most of them study torah all day and do not work, they study in yesheeva(sp?) schools all day, this is the israeli jews not the american ones im not speaking about americansohio said:
the orthadoxy in israel control imigration family laws public kosher laws and alot of censorship lawsAndyman_1970 said:
Israel is a Jewish nation is it not?TheMontashu said:
LMFAO!Changleen said:
Just out of curiosity, are we bummed on Budhist monks who just sit around all day and make wet blankets on their back steam while they're in sub zero temps while humming? I mean they could be making bead necklaces to help the economy or shooting chinese soldiers or something.
but that's not quite it.Cos they mostly do Kung-Fu.kidwoo said:
Seriously, the Bhuddists arn't out to get anyone. Whilst the OJ's may reject joining the military, they don't need to most of the time. For the last 50 years one way or another the Government has used the regular army to execute their agenda for the most part.
Zion
It's not just a bike company anymore!!
It's not just a bike company anymore!!
many consider the jews to be a people, so yes. There are also many degrees of religiousnes so some practicing jews go to temple once a week and are still jews while others prey 3 times a daySlugman said:
Again, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Have you spent any time in Hassidic communities in Israel? Where does your knowledge and understanding of them come from... seriously, it's like you're making this stuff up.TheMontashu said:
Young hassidic men attend Yashiva, yes. It's similar to a any religious day school. Eventually they graduate. Are you opposed to highschool?
There are members of the Hassidic community that devote their lives to study of the Torah and Talmud. They are a small fraction of the community, and are happily and voluntarily supported by the rest of the community as intellectual leaders. Do you take issue with government-funded research? Well, consider this community-funded research.
Walk through a Hassidic community in Israel or in the US. You will notice large homes, healthy businesses, well-dressed people in fine clothing. They pay taxes. They are not a drain on society. As I mentioned, even their beggars rely on the community, not the government. I may not agree with their values, but they are good, genuine people that don't harm anyone and lead impressively disciplined lives. Who are you to judge them?
Ohio, what are you talking about? You say yourself in the next paragraph: "There are members of the Hassidic community that devote their lives to study of the Torah and Talmud. They are a small fraction of the community," - That's what he's talking about. What's he making up?ohio said:
Really? It's not similar to a church of England religious school at all. None of mainstream Christianity, Islam or Bhuddism have such uniform adherence to a 'uniform' based on religion. Do mainstream christian schools place such an emphasis on religion over the other staple basics? I am not opposed to high school where you walk away with certification in math, sciences, languages, geography, arts and so on, but to compare what is essentially a seminary with such an institution is pushing it.
Again, there is a difference between research into science and 'research' into a book of mythology. Research means the application of scientific principals to learn more about a subject and gives rise to experiment - the testing of a hypothesis about the subject based on observations of it's behavior. What theologists call 'research' is not this. They practice reinforcement of ideas. Government funded research (less so under Bush) advances proper science which is (hopefully) beneficial to the progress of humanity.
I have no issue with this statement until you infer that the beliefs of these communities in Israel do not place a drain on society, or harm anyone. This is demonstrably false. Maybe they do not harm other Jews, but it is as clear as day that the agendas promoted by their religion have formed a intrinsic and extremist part of Israel's policy towards the Palestinians which have resulted in the American supported oppresion of these people for decades. Israel is not the 'good' side in this conflict. They have killed more Palestinians than the Palestinians have Israelis, made more Palestinians homeless, created thousands of refugees and destroyed the lives and future prospects of tens of thousands of Palestinians. That's the inevitable result of believing you are undeniably right and fighting against a side who believes the same. The Israelis have had the good fortune of being backed by a larger benefactor in their 60 year conflict. It doesn't make them right. Nor does it excuse Palestinian actions, but asking who us to not judge such a history of slaughter and oppresion based on these views is BS.
If it's a culture and a religion and a heritage, and it largely promotes marriage and reproduction within itself, and it has largely been confined and confined itself to homogenius communites during the majority of it's history, it is certainly not far from the traditional definion of a race is it?ohio said:
Notice that i said some people consider the jws as a people, O and my information comes from many israeli friends of mine complaining about the ultra orthadox. The yeshiva is nothing like hight school it is done instead of army service AFTER high schoolohio said:
I've got to run, but I'll respond quickly to this one. You're confusing modern Orthodox Judaism with Hassidic Judaism. While Hassidic are fairly extreme in their views regarding lifestyle, they aren't the ones advocating (to the same extent) militant Zionism, nor do they qield the political clout of the modern Orthodox Jews that form the majority of conservative Israel.Changleen said:
lets not froget there has never been a "palistine" prior to 1948 it simply never existed under arab control, lets also not forget during in independence war in 48 he jews accepted the land they were givin it was arabs who invaded and started the conflict. O and lets not neglect the suicide bombings, Israel only takes action against palistinians(in general) only after that. Israel is also making efforts to creat a country of palistine by giving back gaza it is the arabs who are still are trying to refuse thier land without Jerusalem. Wich by the way is not once mentioned in the koran as the place muhamed went up to heavan, it was origanaly done for political reasons against the crusaders. Now maybe you should not be blaming the jews but the jews and the palistinians for the violence and conflect. O one more point Jerusalem is the 3rd holyest city for the muslem word lets not forget that.
Ever watch Southpark?Slugman said:
SMALL FRACTION. I REPEAT, SMALL FRACTION. His statement was that the community was a drain on the rest of Israel becuase so many of them choose this path. That is blatently false.Changleen said:
Look, like I said, they're not my values... but they do an equal if not better job of educating their youth (with an emphasis on male youth) in math, science, and art than most secular public schools. In addition there is a strong focus on religion. Wouldn't be my choice, but it doesn't seem to harm anyone. They're pretty insular and for the most part ignore the outside world.Changleen said:
Barking up the wrong tree my friend. I agree that their research is not science. However, it is certainly not far from a professor of philosophy or ethics at a state school in a western country. Again, they are funded by the community because the community values their wisdom. Whether what you and I would consider "wise" aligns with what they think is pretty unimportant as long as it serves their community well and doesn't harm the outside world.Changleen said:
See my previous post. Hassidics are NOT Israel. Do you even know who the Hassidics are? They are generally despised, or at least held in contempt by mainstream Israel (especially the modern orthodoxy I believe Montashu represents) because they refuse to take up arms. They have little to no political power. They believe in a state of Israel, but are not Zionists in the current sense, and to my knowledge are not part of the settler community that seems to be the current hub of issues in Israel.Changleen said: