[Changleen]

One of the cool things about NZ is our use of renewable power sources.
Renewable energy is used throughout New Zealand. Hydro systems, New Zealand's largest renewable energy source, generate around 60 - 70 per cent of the country's electricity. New Zealand's geographic characteristics allow a number of renewable energy sources to be utilised - including hydro, geothermal, wind, biogas and solar. There's no reason why most countries don't start moving towards these technologies.

People say 'they're too expensive' but NZ has only 4 million population and we still find the cash for stuff like this, because we know it's important.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3882961a13,00.html

Billion-dollar geothermal power plan
30 November 2006
By MARTA STEEMAN

State power firm Mighty River Power has announced plans to develop more than $1 billion of geothermal power plants in the next 10 years.

The state-owned enterprise says geothermal power is a renewable energy that is more reliable than wind or hydro because it is not subject to the weather.

The programme of geothermal development is the biggest in decades.

Mighty River's plans will compete with several other power plants under construction or in the planning stages.

Genesis Energy expects to complete the building of a big gas-fired power plant at Huntly soon, while Mighty River is also completing the expansion of a smaller gas-fired plant in South Auckland.

TrustPower is extending its Tararua wind farm in Manawatu.

Meridian Energy is building a wind farm in Southland.

High investment in power plants is good for New Zealand, Mighty River chief executive Doug Heffernan said.

The supply of electricity was improving after power shortages in 2001, 2003 and worries of one this winter.

Supplies had not looked so good for several years.

The challenge to be faced now was the limitations of the transmission system, Mr Heffernan said.

Mighty River supported the building of a new line from Taupo to Auckland because it was the only way to secure electricity supplies to Auckland.

He believed that geothermal and wind farms could supply the growth in power demand for 10 years.

Mr Heffernan announced the company's plans to develop about 400 megawatts of geothermal power at the formal start of construction of the 90MW Kawerau geothermal plant yesterday.

He expected the developments to take place at existing sites in the central North island. - Rotokawa, Nga Tamariki and Kawerau.

Geothermal power plants are capital intensive. The 400MW proposal is estimated to cost about $1.2 billion.

The country's other big operator of geothermal power, Contact Energy, sees opportunities to expand its plants in the central North Island and possibly to build another.

Now if only I could convince everyone to get double glazing...

 

[Transcend]

Quebec is pretty much exclusively Hydro power. We sell extra power to about 4 northern states as well as the province of Ontario and New Brunswick.

 

[Lex]

The reason it doesn't happen in a lot of places is explained in the first phrase of the second paragraph: state-owned enterprise. It's easy to pump tax dollars into something but try getting a private company to do the same with a technology that they don't see lining their (or the stockholders') pockets in short order. That's why the US is doing little or nothing to expand renewable energy. In our economy you need a for-profit company to make it happen. The government does research but would never tread on the toes of the big energy companies by getting into the business of competing with them.

 

[Lex]

Quebec is pretty much exclusively Hydro power. We sell extra power to about 4 northern states as well as the province of Ontario and New Brunswick.

My brother-in-law is very interested in solar and wind power, but my father-in-law (as gently as possible) says there is no future for those in Quebec. Power is already so cheap and clean why convert to something else. There is a really big wind farm on the Gaspe peninsula that is really cool, though. Very good spot for it.

 

[Transcend]

I dunno, Hydro Quebec is no longer a crown corp, and are making oodles of money off of building new dams and selling power all over the northeast. It also gives us local to them dirt cheap power.

 

[Lex]

I dunno, Hydro Quebec is no longer a crown corp, and are making oodles of money off of building new dams and selling power all over the northeast. It also gives us local to them dirt cheap power.

It was origianlly set up as a state-owned company though, right? Once up and running it took on a life of it's own. The problem in the US is that the government won't take any steps to get the ball rolling.

 

[Transcend]

My brother-in-law is very interested in solar and wind power, but my father-in-law (as gently as possible) says there is no future for those in Quebec. Power is already so cheap and clean why convert to something else. There is a really big wind farm on the Gaspe peninsula that is really cool, though. Very good spot for it.

Completely agreed. There really isn't much reason to research other types of renewable energy here as the hydro power has more than enough capability for decades of growth to come. Going to be hard to get people to put money into other forms of research when this works, is clean, renewable etc. The wind farms are pretty cool, but cannot touch Hydro electric power in terms of cost and sheer amount of power generated.

Of course, the big dams have ruined thousands of hectares of pristine northern wilderness by the creation of their reservoirs.

 

[Transcend]

It was origianlly set up as a state-owned company though, right? Once up and running it took on a life of it's own. The problem in the US is that the government won't take any steps to get the ball rolling.

Ya, it was a crown corp for a long time, but the real expansion (pushing for profitability) only took off when it went private. I don't think the gov't would need to do that much in the us but allow the zoning, what it takes is a billionnaire willing to drop the crazy cash it takes to get started. I think environmental nutjobs would make it hard though for many changes to taker place. Wind farms kill migrating birds, dams flood massive areas etc.

 

[Changleen]

Yeah, I agree it'd be easier if the state helps out, but it is possible to make profit in the private sector. Check out Meridian Energy, NZ's largest:

http://www.meridianenergy.co.nz/

Renewable only.

 

[Changleen]

Urgh, for those on this thread right now, check out Wellington this morning. It's raining cats and dogs and blowing a gale. It's also really warm (seriously)...

http://www.citylink.co.nz/services/webcam/aotea/

Click through the different cams. This is one of the reasons renewable works here...

 

[Lex]

Yeah, I agree it'd be easier if the state helps out, but it is possible to make profit in the private sector. Check out Meridian Energy, NZ's largest:

http://www.meridianenergy.co.nz/

Renewable only.

I think another problem here in the US is that people don't look at their properties the same way they did when I was a kid. My parents bought their house with the intention of raising a family over the long term. A lot of people (not all) these days only see the short term when they think about their home. Spending $30K on a solar energy system is a bad investment to someone who will only be in the house for a few years or even ten for that matter.

In some European countries they mandate that new construction have at least some solar capability. Can you imagine how much power could be saved if every home in, say, Arizona had even a fraction of their energy needs met by solar?

 

[LordOpie]

and yet, the US will pay farmers to not grow crops, will bail out the trains and planes, and will subsidize pharms... go figure.

 

[Changleen]

It'd be awesome if places like AZ mandated Solar for sure.

 

[Lex]

and yet, the US will pay farmers to not grow crops, will bail out the trains and planes, and will subsidize pharms... go figure.

They should pay those farmers to set up wind farms or move to the desert and be solar energy farmers. Now if only you could convince politicians to discuss actual ways to solve problems rather than debating the procedure for approaching the solution to a problem.

 

[Changleen]

Of course, the big dams have ruined thousands of hectares of pristine northern wilderness by the creation of their reservoirs.

Still better than destroying the atmosphere for the entire planet, and we've already had somewhat of an impact with stuff like roads, towns and cities. It's kinda odd to me that people protest such a tiny side effect of clean power when the downsides to coal or gas are so much worse, just out of sight, and the fact their own town exists and urban sprawl happens all the time seems to be OK.

 

[Transcend]

Still better than destroying the atmosphere for the entire planet, and we've already had somewhat of an impact with stuff like roads, towns and cities. It's kinda odd to me that people protest such a tiny side effect of clean power when the downsides to coal or gas are so much worse, just out of sight, and the fact their own town exists and urban sprawl happens all the time seems to be OK.

While I agree with you, the natives whose historical hunting grounds as well as their burial grounds etc which are in these areas, certainly do not.

 

[Changleen]

While I agree with you, the natives whose historical hunting grounds as well as their burial grounds etc which are in these areas, certainly do not.

Yeah well, you know what I think about holding onto past beliefs...

 

[jimmydean]

That's cool!

Oregon contracted with soy bean farmers in Eastern Oregon to produce Bio Diesel for all city busses. They are also lookin at city/state trucks since thy got such a great response.

http://www.trimet.org/news/releases/oct30biodiesel.htm

It's only B5 (5% bio) to start, but it's better than nothing.

 

[Lex]

That's cool!

Oregon contracted with soy bean farmers in Eastern Oregon to produce Bio Diesel for all city busses. They are also lookin at city/state trucks since thy got such a great response.

http://www.trimet.org/news/releases/oct30biodiesel.htm

It's only B5 (5% bio) to start, but it's better than nothing.

5% is still a cash savings for the city and at least they're starting somewhere. With fuel being as expensive as it is, that savings is money the city can reinvest in other projects. If a city took all of the waste grease from every restaurant and made fuel out of it they're sewer systems would run smoother, they'd have less garbage to haul, etc.

 

[Changleen]

It seems most of the progressive thinking and action about climate change is occurring at state and local levels in the US.

 

[jimmydean]

5% is still a cash savings for the city and at least they're starting somewhere. With fuel being as expensive as it is, that savings is money the city can reinvest in other projects. If a city took all of the waste grease from every restaurant and made fuel out of it they're sewer systems would run smoother, they'd have less garbage to haul, etc.

I agree 100%. Problem with waste grease is a lot of places have takers for it around here as it is. There are a LOT of garage setups in the Portland area. You will find a lot of Dodge trucks that run Bio as well as various VW TDI's.

Oregon also is in the process of building the largest E85 plant on the West Coast. It will use corn from Idaho that travels down the Columbia river and be made available at most major stations.

I will be converting my truck to E85 very soon. I want to run a flex fuel Corvette engine

 

[Changleen]

We don't have that option yet in NZ. I'm running a diesel so I could make the change without too much $$ or hassle... LPG is getting big here though. Most buses, and all the cops, taxis etc run LPG now.

 

[DaveW]

We don't have that option yet in NZ. I'm running a diesel so I could make the change without too much $$ or hassle... LPG is getting big here though. Most buses, and all the cops, taxis etc run LPG now.

It's not as big as it used to be..... late 70's thru to late eighty's ALL government cars ran on dual fuel (switchable LPG/petrol) And a hell of a lot of private cars too. I used to have a dual fuel van it rocked! :biggrin:

 

[DaveW]

The reason it doesn't happen in a lot of places is explained in the first phrase of the second paragraph: state-owned enterprise. It's easy to pump tax dollars into something but try getting a private company to do the same with a technology that they don't see lining their (or the stockholders') pockets in short order. That's why the US is doing little or nothing to expand renewable energy. In our economy you need a for-profit company to make it happen. The government does research but would never tread on the toes of the big energy companies by getting into the business of competing with them.

Actually SOE's (state owned enterprises) in NZ are expected to run exactly like a normal private company, as in they have to run at a profit. Here's an example of how meridian runs.....Meridian cash cow pays additional dividend

Meridian's Statement of Corporate Intent says the company will pay out dividends of 65 per cent of net profits. Mr Boyd said Meridian was able to pay well in excess of that because of the "exceptional results" achieved in 2005-06 and its commitment to have a balance sheet as efficient as private sector competitors.

 

[Changleen]

Wow I though Meridian was totally private... my bad.

 

[Reactor]

It'd be awesome if places like AZ mandated Solar for sure.

That would be cool. There is a little support now. The local power company will pay for about 1/3 the cost of adding solar to your home and buy back the excess power. The state government gives out tax credits to cover part of the rest. There is a development in west Phoenix that has it's own solar power company providing most of their power. It will happen, eventually.

 

[Changleen]

Wow I though Meridian was totally private... my bad.

Wait so that means that fvcking crappy hour long advert was paid for by my money?

 

[DaveW]

Wait so that means that fvcking crappy hour long advert was paid for by my money?

Advertising.... just another part of the operating costs of a corperate entity.

Would you prefer the American method of just spending the same money bribing political types instead?

 

[Changleen]

Advertising.... just another part of the operating costs of a corperate entity.

Would you prefer the American method of just spending the same money bribing political types instead?

Nah but that ad was just excessive... It was like 2 minutes long, AND they were showing it at the cinema.

 

[Kihaji]

Still better than destroying the atmosphere for the entire planet, and we've already had somewhat of an impact with stuff like roads, towns and cities. It's kinda odd to me that people protest such a tiny side effect of clean power when the downsides to coal or gas are so much worse, just out of sight, and the fact their own town exists and urban sprawl happens all the time seems to be OK.

Yeah, what's the extinction of a few species of plants and animals when we can "save the earth", the irony is just flowing off there.

As for the "Well, NZ does it so why doesn't everyone else", not everyone has the geography that NZ does. Often in places "renewable" (that's kind of a stupid term imho, coal and oil are renewable just on a longer time scale)energy sources are actually worse than the current "bad for the environment" sources. This is because the energy to make said collection devices for them is greater than their return. It simply does not make economic nor environmental sense at this point in time, as by the time they actually do pay off their environmental impact from creation, better technologies and techniques have been invented and reinvented that reduce the energy for creation.

In other words, depending on the location, some of these sources are like celery, sure they make look like good souces of food, but they actually take more energy to digest than they give.

Now, that being said, I'm all for using energy saving and alternative sources when they make sense, for the house I am looking at I am already looking at ways to reduce my energy consumption and dependency on the grid(Tankless water heaters, solar panels for heating water to heat the house, high density walls for a large heat mass, etc.)

 

[stevew]

Chang, even a Senator from the party that claims to care the most doesn't want to do the right thing.

Senators or enviormentalists would never let happen what is being done in NZ.

 

[Da Peach]

I dunno, Hydro Quebec is no longer a crown corp, and are making oodles of money off of building new dams and selling power all over the northeast. It also gives us local to them dirt cheap power.

The Quebec government is the sole share holder of Hydro-Quebec.

http://www.hydroquebec.com/publications/en/annual_report/2005/pdf/hydro2005en_01.pdf

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec

Unless there's something I don't know about....

More wind farms are supposed to start popping up in the next few years. They likely won't ever match what the hydro can do, but I guess it will save a hectare or two of hunting grounds, at the expense of a few birds of course...

Now Iceland's a place where geothermal is where it's at!

 

[valve bouncer]

Wind farms are visual pollution. I hate the bloody things. Better than the alternative I guess though.

 

[Da Peach]

Wind farms are visual pollution. I hate the bloody things. Better than the alternative I guess though.

You find them ugly? I guess I'm just not bored of them yet, but everytime I see one I think they look pretty neat!

MMike's face: Now there's some visual pollution...

 

[Transcend]

The Quebec government is the sole share holder of Hydro-Quebec.

http://www.hydroquebec.com/publications/en/annual_report/2005/pdf/hydro2005en_01.pdf

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec

Unless there's something I don't know about....

More wind farms are supposed to start popping up in the next few years. They likely won't ever match what the hydro can do, but I guess it will save a hectare or two of hunting grounds, at the expense of a few birds of course...

Now Iceland's a place where geothermal is where it's at!

It is owned completely by the government, but is no longer run as a crown coorp. They MUST turn a sizeable profit now. It is simply a money making endeavour for the government.

 

[Da Peach]

It is owned completely by the government, but is no longer run as a crown coorp. They MUST turn a sizeable profit now. It is simply a money making endeavour for the government.

Well, I have no complaints with a government organisation striving to run an efficient money generating enterprise, but if you think it is actually run the same way a private company does, you're dreaming.

Sure, all companies have waste. But what I saw while working on their latest James Bay project is beyond wasteful.

 

[Transcend]

Well, I have no complaints with a government organisation striving to run an efficient money generating enterprise, but if you think it is actually run the same way a private company does, you're dreaming.

Sure, all companies have waste. But what I saw while working on their latest James Bay project is beyond wasteful.

I think you'll find pretty much every large scale project in Quebec is wasteful, due in large part to the mega powerful unions here. Hydri has to turn a profit, and is a huge cash cow now for the province. It has come a long, LONG way since the late 70s and 80s when it was burning through money like nobodies business, and not turning an ounce of profit.

 

[MMike]

MMike's face: Now there's some visual pollution...

You are

 

[Da Peach]

I think you'll find pretty much every large scale project in Quebec is wasteful, due in large part to the mega powerful unions here. Hydri has to turn a profit, and is a huge cash cow now for the province. It has come a long, LONG way since the late 70s and 80s when it was burning through money like nobodies business, and not turning an ounce of profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporation

Well, good for the goverment for improving. But who sets the prices?

 

[MMike]

My hydro bill was $267 this month