[Changleen]

This is the lead article in the UK paper "The Observer" this Sunday. Rarely for an opinion piece, it has been reprinted by other papers, and I can tell you that it fairly accurately describes the mood of Europeans about the forthcoming Elections. (I hope they actually turn out to be Elections and not an exercise in fraud by the Republicans.)

Why Kerry will have our support

We would all be safer without Bush

Leader
Sunday August 1, 2004
The Observer

If George Bush's presidency has not convinced us America is a foreign country, last week's Democrat convention at Boston left no room for doubts. Democrats may be first ideological cousins to New Labour, but their presidential candidate, John Kerry, opened his acceptance speech with a military metaphor that could never be used by a European counterpart: 'I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty'.
Republicans insist that Democratic values - pre-eminence of science, affirmative action and instinctive multilateralism - are anti-American and anti-patriotic, but the central taunt is that Democrats are soft on defence and security. Kerry's metaphor - from a stage filled with veterans from Vietnam - was well chosen.

The US has hardened into two virulently opposed ideological and cultural camps that are almost equal in numbers. On the two seaboards, around the Great Lakes, in the north east and some cities of the south, the Democrats have their base: mildly progressive, multilateralist, tolerant and fair-minded. In the south, the Rocky Mountains and the plains lie the Republican base: religious fundamentalists, fervent believers in America's unilateralist destiny and culturally conservative. This is 50:50 America. The election, expected to be close, will be decided in some dozen states, with foreign policy set to be a decisive factor. Kerry will argue that his multilateralism will pay greater dividends for America than Bush's unilateralism.

Kerry insists he will be a different President. Under him the US would achieve its foreign policy ambitions through leadership of the international alliance system, accepting the compromises that that implies. Kerry would restore the treaty system covering the spread and testing of nuclear and chemical weapon systems, that Bush has jettisoned. He would cooperate in relieving Third World debt; he would be sympathetic to the Kyoto accords. He would not prevent sex education and the use of condoms in the campaign to fight Aids. He would back science and stem cell research. He would encourage alternative energy technologies.

Less welcome would be his protectionism on trade issues. Europe should be prepared to challenge him on this, not least in the interests of the poorest countries.

But the risks of another Bush term are far greater. Kerry immeasurably improves our chances of defeating terrorism and making the world safer. In a bitter fight in a divided America, reassurance that Kerry has the support of the rest of the world could be a decisive factor in key swing states. We must offer that signal.

"Kerry immeasurably improves our chances of defeating terrorism and making the world safer.'

Tru dat.

 

[BurlyShirley]

"Kerry immeasurably improves our chances of defeating terrorism and making the world safer.'

Tru dat.

That's all fine and dandy, but um...how?


I liked this part:
" In the south, the Rocky Mountains and the plains lie the Republican base"

The whole middle of the country..heh! The heartland and all that... Not that it matters, just an observation.

I hope Bush is re elected because I like his firmness and decisiveness. I think he's a good leader and a good man. Not the best...but better than the opposition. I think he does what he honestly feels is the right thing. I dont think he's dumb. I am not religious, rich, or any of those other things people claim bush caters to...I just like the way our country is in alot of ways and dont really think it needs the reform that liberals want. Call it hate if you want, but I love the opportunities Ive got and the fact that it still takes hard work to make it well in this country. So some dude overseas wrote some opinion piece based on a huge blanket generalization. So what? Did that change anyone's mind? You cant belittle an entire half of the US by calling them all "Fundamentalists" (bear in mind that this country is chock full o' protestants not fundemantalists in any form) and expect them to want to hear you. Post something of substance sometime.

 

[Changleen]

I hope Bush is re elected because I like his firmness and decisiveness. I think he's a good leader and a good man. Not the best...but better than the opposition. I think he does what he honestly feels is the right thing. I dont think he's dumb. I am not religious, rich, or any of those other things people claim bush caters to...I just like the way our country is in alot of ways and dont really think it needs the reform that liberals want.

That's just fine, as nearly every commentator says, America is split between those who will be voting Bush and those who will be voting Kerry. It's always been said that no one will be changing these people's minds. There are a few in the middle who may or may not make the difference.

As is blatently clear I am on the other side of the fence to you. I could never support Bush. To me he is a warmonger, a liar and a cheat, a man who puts the interests of a few rich Americans over the rest of the population of not only his own country but the rest of the world's people, the environment, and the freedom that American used to represent.

One of the things that brings us both to this forum is that we are Mountain bikers of one sort or another. We both love a sport that takes us to the forests, parks and mountains across the world. We enjoy them in a way that a lot of people never will. We get to lose ourselves in many of the world's most beautiful natural areas.

One of the things I can never forgive Bush for is his betrayal of the world's environment. I really don't think you can deny that Bush has done more harm to the world's ecosystems (especially in America itself) than any other President (if not individual) in the history of the US. It doesn't take much digging to find reams and reams of data on Bush's abuses. He is threatening to destroy one of the only things that really cannot be fixed. Voting for him again is voting that you don't care about the Ozone layer or air pollution, that you don't care about deforestation. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Even if you support Bush's Imperialist neo-conservative agenda, and you think America would be better off governed by laws that put the needs of big business over the needs and rights of the people, as a Mountain biker I find it hard to understand how you can support someone who so blatently puts short term profits over Earth's ecological future and the places that your sport thrives on.

 

[kidwoo]

All that stuff above

Again and again, I can't see anything but ignorance of the legislation that has passed justifying support for this administration. Well that and the previously mentioned religous or upper end financial backing.

Marry me so I can be a part of the commonwealth by November just in case of a repeat President Select.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

That's all fine and dandy, but um...how?


I liked this part:
" In the south, the Rocky Mountains and the plains lie the Republican base"

The whole middle of the country..heh! The heartland and all that... Not that it matters, just an observation.

I hope Bush is re elected because I like his firmness and decisiveness. I think he's a good leader and a good man. Not the best...but better than the opposition. I think he does what he honestly feels is the right thing. I dont think he's dumb. I am not religious, rich, or any of those other things people claim bush caters to...I just like the way our country is in alot of ways and dont really think it needs the reform that liberals want. Call it hate if you want, but I love the opportunities Ive got and the fact that it still takes hard work to make it well in this country. So some dude overseas wrote some opinion piece based on a huge blanket generalization. So what? Did that change anyone's mind? You cant belittle an entire half of the US by calling them all "Fundamentalists" (bear in mind that this country is chock full o' protestants not fundemantalists in any form) and expect them to want to hear you. Post something of substance sometime.

well your post is based on false assumptions that are kinda "US folklore" more than reality.

you can be really firm, and have a lot of decisiveness... to be wrong. the first 2 dont mean that would lead into a good path.

its not free they say that only idiots are the ones that will never change their mind no matter what. so i dont think firmness and decisiveness should be held that high in a value scale.
it doesnt matter if you feel he feels he is right. i mean, hitler thought he was right, even probably stronger than bush. and yeah, that made hitler a good leader, otherwise he wouldnt have lured an entire country to war. but that doesnt make him a good president or anything else.

i do think the US need some of those "liberal" reforms. just check your economy in the last 4 years, or the safety of your country.

everywhere in the world hardwork is required to get rich. liberals wont change that. they aint commies or anything like that. so that argument was the typical patriotical "we the land of the free" speech.

and well, check the meaning of the world "fundamentalist" and you´ll the word protestant is part of the definition.

so, if you want another term of republican unilateralism, well expect more terror and more towards the US. u may try to fight it or whatever, terror is not a fixed enemy with a face, and will not end, if you dont kill every single suspect.

and remember that terrorism, doesnt starts itself, but is a response to US unilateralism, that being the root problem. i dont know why is that so hard to understand for republicans, when the rest of the world, includind democrats kinda realized that a while ago.

 

[LordOpie]

and remember that terrorism, doesnt starts itself, but is a response to US unilateralism...

you need to substantiate that. I've heard that before and to date, I've never seen anything conclusive. So, whatcha got?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

you need to substantiate that. I've heard that before and to date, I've never seen anything conclusive. So, whatcha got?

for terrorism being responses to unilateralism, or being responses rather than self-starting movements.

-the US independance revolution, a response to UKs unilateralism in gvmt.
-1917 russian revolution, a response to the czars repression.
-peru´s shining path, a desperated response to poorness in the rural areas.
-the comunism ideology, a response to some excess of the industrial revolution.
-cubas castro as a response to bastistas regime.
-india´s ghandi, a response to british imperialism.
-etc.

so, terrorism and revolutions are always responses to something, not saying its a good or bad response. and would not start themselves if such "something" had never happened.

so its not that terrorist freely hate the US, or they "envy" the US, like i heard a lot of conservatives.

or do u think there would be terrorism even if the US hadnt supported israel, or if it hasnt such an interventionist agenda???????????

 

[LordOpie]

well, you shared rhetoric like i've heard before... doesn't actually mean anything.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

well, you shared rhetoric like i've heard before... doesn't actually mean anything.

i think is a matter of you choosing to believe the anti-US terrorism is the only one different from every other terrorism, that selfgenerates.

anyway, what are the demands of the terrorists??? the US pulling its aid from israel? to have the US pull out its troops from foreign soil?

isnt interventionism a result of a unilateral policy???? i mean, if it was multilateral, then it would be thru the UN, or some cooperative non intrusive action.

from the mouth of the terrorists, isnt anti-interventionism the main demand of terrorist groups? being interventionism in israel, or iraq, or everywhere???

or do you think terror would have happen anyway??? if so, that would be a more unfounded answer.

what do you think??

 

[LordOpie]

i think is a matter of you choosing to believe the anti-US terrorism is the only one different from every other terrorism, that selfgenerates.

If you're saying that I think the cause and effect is different than the examples you listed, I would say you understand me. Otherwise, huh?

There's still the underlying problem of their religion. The extremists among them seem to be running their own crusade to save us from damnation... either by converting us or killing us to save our souls.

as for the bigger picture, it's just idle speculation. When did ME hate for the US start? What was the cause? Will concessions actually stop 'em?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

If you're saying that I think the cause and effect is different than the examples you listed, I would say you understand me. Otherwise, huh?

There's still the underlying problem of their religion. The extremists among them seem to be running their own crusade to save us from damnation... either by converting us or killing us to save our souls.

as for the bigger picture, it's just idle speculation. When did ME hate for the US start? What was the cause? Will concessions actually stop 'em?

yeah i understand the cause-effect thing. in my first post i was extending past terrorist groups, and extrapolating an answer for the islamics. i mean, if it had been like that always, why is this time gonna be different??

if you want sombody to pinpoint a cause-effect in this case, youll have to sit down, because it would be almost impossible to isolate that in such a tangled web of happenings in the present. maybe in the future, when things calm down, and people actually will look for reasons for history, and not for political gain or, etc. but at this point?? its really hard.

if you choose not to take the evidence, well alright, its ilke with evolution, if you choose not to believe, then nothing will change your mind.

what is ME in your last question??? middle east?? well, i would think it HAS to do with the israel-palestine thing. they didnt sided with the germans or japanese in WWII aftter all so i cannot be that far back in the past.

about the islamic crusade thing. well its the first time i hear that. i´ve out of the states the entire summer, so am kinda di-contaminated of conservative media.

i dont think islam has the same fever for converting as christians. and actually extremist-MEasterners HATE the US, it not like they feel sorry for the americans going to hell anmd will kill them to save them.

it is more that they want to kill them because they want them not be alive anymore.
of course religion has a lot to do, but not in the way that they want to impose theirs, but that they dont want to be impossed the "US" religion or being culturally invaded or threaten, and of couse this feelings come from the unilateral interventionist policy of the states. after all, islam is not only a religion, but a way of life. it demands much more commitment than protestantism.

just think for a moment. you are confortably in your temple in denver, and suddenly you see an army of chinese soldiers in utah and texas. telling you dont worry, but dont dress woman this way, eat pork, or i´ll buy your "coal" at the price i say, else intervention. plus they aid your next door neighbor, who lives in what used to be your backyard and openly displays guns and stuff and says it would use them if he needs to and exercises every day in combat and jiu jitsu.
would not you be threatened? insted of feeling sorry for them and trying to convert them to judaism?

 

[BurlyShirley]

well your post is based on false assumptions that are kinda "US folklore" more than reality.

Well, of course, I disagree.

Think back to school as a kid. Remember what it was like (assuming folks in Peru experience such things) when your regular teacher was out sick, and you had some substitute in their who was really kind and pliable. What did the kids do? Now, when good ole Mrs. Whateverhername got back from being sick...order was restored...correct? Firmness is essential to leadership, as is decisiveness in the face of pressure. Dont be silly.
Also, you cant just whip out the "hitler" reference every chance you get. I mean its like any trait that Hitler had, you cant just pin it on someone and call them hitler-like. "Hitler wore grey alot and so did Bush" does not mean Bush=Hitler. Hitler was a great speaker, John Kerry is a good speaker..he's obviously going to start at least a semi-holocaust with your logic.

Also on the " I do think the US need some of those "liberal" reforms. just check your economy in the last 4 years, or the safety of your country."

We've said over and over...you cant just blame the economy's state on the current pres. There are a ton of factors as Im sure you know and you're going for a real cop-out here. As for safety..well..the ONE ATTACK which occured has been delt with in a very "FIRM AND DECISIVE" manner IMO, and Id like to see that continue...which is another reason Im voting Bush. I wont be scared into voting in some pliable tool who tosses his war medals one day and proudly displays them the next. That in itself is enough to make me hate a man.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Well, of course, I disagree.

Think back to school as a kid. Remember what it was like (assuming folks in Peru experience such things) when your regular teacher was out sick, and you had some substitute in their who was really kind and pliable. What did the kids do? Now, when good ole Mrs. Whateverhername got back from being sick...order was restored...correct? Firmness is essential to leadership, as is decisiveness in the face of pressure. Dont be silly.
Also, you cant just whip out the "hitler" reference every chance you get. I mean its like any trait that Hitler had, you cant just pin it on someone and call them hitler-like. "Hitler wore grey alot and so did Bush" does not mean Bush=Hitler. Hitler was a great speaker, John Kerry is a good speaker..he's obviously going to start at least a semi-holocaust with your logic.

Also on the " I do think the US need some of those "liberal" reforms. just check your economy in the last 4 years, or the safety of your country."

We've said over and over...you cant just blame the economy's state on the current pres. There are a ton of factors as Im sure you know and you're going for a real cop-out here. As for safety..well..the ONE ATTACK which occured has been delt with in a very "FIRM AND DECISIVE" manner IMO, and Id like to see that continue...which is another reason Im voting Bush. I wont be scared into voting in some pliable tool who tosses his war medals one day and proudly displays them the next. That in itself is enough to make me hate a man.

well, the teacher analogy hardly applies to macro-politics.

yeah, comparing hitler and bush is quite a stretch, but i was using him to illustrate that being 100% convinced and 100% firm and decided, DOES NOT mean a good outcome. that, and only that. i dont necesarily imply any other similarity between hitler and bush.

do u think a firm and decisive hotshot in office in the 60´s would have doubted like JFK did with the cuba crisis? maybe JFK was a sissy because he hadnt big enough cojones to nuke first, BUT that was the best posible decision he could have taken for the US.

a firm and decisive act would have been nuke cccp before they nuke first. and history shows, what would have been given the worst posible outcome. actually being careful and doubtful from both sides is what saved the world from a nuclear war that time. and of course, once u make a decision, you may realize you did wrong. what would the firm and decisive hotshot do???? keep going?, what would the doubful sissy do? realize the mistake and try to fix it.

i believe there is more merit in accepting mistakes and fixing them halfway, than to pursue blindy a goal, without regard of its wrong-ness halfway.

and, yeah you CAN blame your president for the deficit. you CAN blame him for bad spending. you CAN blame him for being fiscally irresposible.

of course he is not 100% responsible for the bad situation, but he IS responsible for making the decision that make it worse.

and that was his job, make the best out of any situation. alright, maybe, but only maybe things were going to be bad anyway. but is his economical policy the best for the US as a whole in this difficult time???

do you truly think the current dealing of the US economy is the best one in an economical overall utiliarian POV. after all, he is a president for almost 300 million US-ers, not for 2 million shareholders.

 

[Changleen]

If you're saying that I think the cause and effect is different than the examples you listed, I would say you understand me. Otherwise, huh?

There's still the underlying problem of their religion. The extremists among them seem to be running their own crusade to save us from damnation... either by converting us or killing us to save our souls.

as for the bigger picture, it's just idle speculation. When did ME hate for the US start? What was the cause? Will concessions actually stop 'em?

So basically the question that wants answering is why do Arabs hate the US?

I've been trying to answer this myself for a while now, and I'll provide you some links and quotes in a second, there has been quite a bit of research done on this question by westerners and Arabs themselves.

From all the research I have done these are what I think are the two main reasons:

1) US unconditional support of Israel. Make no mistake about it, what goes on there is way more than any of the US media ever shows. Ariel Sharon is a facist murderer. He has killed so many innocent people whilst hunting a few so called 'terrorists' with extreme and excessive methods. His economic policies have reduced the Palestinian people to a life of depravation. All Arabs know (probably better than most Americans) that this activity is funded almost 100% by the US government. The Arab media is more honest about what Isreal really does under the guise of 'protecting itself' so most Arabs see the US as a supporter of some of the worst terrorism perpitrated in the world, which has been ongoing since the 1920s. Whenever Bush decries terrorist behaviour, or spouts about the evil of nations that suport terrorism, can you imagine how that makes the US look to an Arab?

Links:
http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/israelimassacres.html
http://www.mediamonitors.net/hanania21.html
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/palestine/AmericanIsraeliTerrorism.html

2) American corporate greed supported by policies of the US government

America has a long history of using it's military and economic might to force smaller economies to deal on it's terms - America always takes what it wants first, and if there may be mutually beneficial trade possible with the country in question then great. The flip side of this is that often locals see unfair prices for their main exports which over the years considerably supress their economic development. People just want the US to act in a 'fair' way when it comes to trade. The US currently has a highly imperialistic agenda wrt so called 'free trade' and under Bush this has extended to invading other countries to get at directly, or influence the market for the thing America needs the most - oil. Arab nations have largely bourne the brunt of aggresive US 'trade policies' in this area for many many years. Once again, Bush has taken it one step further.
Here is an interesting article - pretty long, but it's a complex subject if you're really interested:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/feckless.html

To be honest, I don't think that for the majority of people that religion really comes into it. Moderate Islam is not a hegemonistic religion contrary to popular belief in the US. Muslims really don't care if you're not a Muslim. You'll be going to hell, that's your problem. Historically, Christianity is far worse.

Neither is hatred of freedom, capitalism or any of the other reaons the Bush administration would like you to believe. Here are some different perspectives:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:b2QTSirqFaoJ:www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Sept_11_2001/Why_DoThey_HateUs.html+Why+do+Arabs+hate+us&hl=en

http://www.arabview.com/articles.asp?article=334

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=48732&d=22&m=7&y=2004

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0927/p1s1-wogi.html

 

[Changleen]

the ONE ATTACK which occured has been delt with in a very "FIRM AND DECISIVE" manner IMO,

Sorry, but I have to say, WTF is FIRM AND DECISIVE about sending 11,000 troops to Afghanistan, 145,000 to Iraq when the people who did this were all from Saudi?
Bush has conned you into thinking he is taking action when in reality he is just furthering his own ends.

 

[Changleen]

who tosses his war medals one day and proudly displays them the next. That in itself is enough to make me hate a man.

Isn't shirking military service yourself then sending American troops to die for your own ends far, far worse?

 

[Changleen]

and of course, once u make a decision, you may realize you did wrong. what would the firm and decisive hotshot do???? keep going?, what would the doubful sissy do? realize the mistake and try to fix it.

i believe there is more merit in accepting mistakes and fixing them halfway, than to pursue blindy a goal, without regard of its wrong-ness halfway.

YAY to that!

 

[N8 v2.0]

I wonder if the rest of the world views Kerry as another Jimmy Carter..?

 

[LordOpie]

I wonder if the rest of the world views Kerry as another Jimmy Carter..?

I don't think Kerry's that smart.

 

[Changleen]

Any response to the debate or is this just gonna be N8 wandering off topic because he has no answers again?

 

[Silver]

I was in church yesterday and I heard the preacher go on about how the US is blessed because we support Israel (God's chosen people) and that the "Muslim Nation" (whatever the hell that is, his words, not mine) is enraged at us because we support God's chosen people (showing a remarkable ignorance of history, and a remarkable lack of sympathy for anyone who isn't a good Christian.)

I'm lucky I was doped up on Vicodin, or I might have made a bit of a scene and called the guy on his bull****. The worst part was half the people in the congregation nodding and verbally agreeing with the guy anytime Israel was mentioned...scary stuff man, scary stuff.

 

[-BB-]

That's all fine and dandy, but um...how?


I liked this part:
" In the south, the Rocky Mountains and the plains lie the Republican base"

The whole middle of the country..heh! The heartland and all that... Not that it matters, just an observation.

I hope Bush is re elected because I like his firmness and decisiveness. I think he's a good leader and a good man. Not the best...but better than the opposition. I think he does what he honestly feels is the right thing. I dont think he's dumb. I am not religious, rich, or any of those other things people claim bush caters to...I just like the way our country is in alot of ways and dont really think it needs the reform that liberals want. Call it hate if you want, but I love the opportunities Ive got and the fact that it still takes hard work to make it well in this country. So some dude overseas wrote some opinion piece based on a huge blanket generalization. So what? Did that change anyone's mind? You cant belittle an entire half of the US by calling them all "Fundamentalists" (bear in mind that this country is chock full o' protestants not fundemantalists in any form) and expect them to want to hear you. Post something of substance sometime.

and the fact that he has NEVER made a mistake.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I was in church yesterday

man you are a dork...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Isn't shirking military service yourself then sending American troops to die for your own ends far, far worse?

Yes...but I dont know anyone who has done that.

What I do know and have seen is PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE of that tool kerry throwing his medals, and today, he has the audacity to play the role of war hero? I mean if youre gunna be a peace guy, be a peace guy and if youre gunna be a war hero, be a war hero...you dont piss down the entire country's back and tell it its raining. Now some of you guys might think the medal tossing is no big deal, and that's understandable because you really cant grasp the gravity of the situation without ever experiencing that kind of lifestyle...but that is a real slap in the face to alot of proud men. He may as well have just urinated on a crucifix or shat on the alamo or something. I cant respect that.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Yes...but I dont know anyone who has done that.

What I do know and have seen is PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE of that tool kerry throwing his medals, and today, he has the audacity to play the role of war hero? I mean if youre gunna be a peace guy, be a peace guy and if youre gunna be a war hero, be a war hero...you dont piss down the entire country's back and tell it its raining. Now some of you guys might think the medal tossing is no big deal, and that's understandable because you really cant grasp the gravity of the situation without ever experiencing that kind of lifestyle...but that is a real slap in the face to alot of proud men. He may as well have just urinated on a crucifix or shat on the alamo or something. I cant respect that.

ah, c`mon, you know he gotta play by the rules. all of those littlle details are to lure airhead votter. what matters if the end of his argument.

he knows he cannot win without a few conservative votes, and obviously the guy is a big time liberal by US standards.

the only way he has to try to reach some conservatives is to appeal to his war times, and show an d aggressive side to have some common grounds to start with this people. Plus, in the US, war veterans are a LOT of people.
i see it as his means to reach that end.

you know, the kind of people that would vote for a good leader, a good candidate. (a good candidate does not necessarily mean a good president)
of course, like changleen said, those war remarks would be out of question in europe or any other 1st world country.

BUT the states has its share (a big one) of bleeding heart gun carrying, beligerant, we-need-a-strong-leader, poorly educated voters that no other developed nation seem to have. and the only way to reach that pool, is to go for easy am-the-big-balled monologue with a complete lack of substance, but perfectly tailored marketing.
those monologues work wonders in the 3rd world let me tell you, and also work wonders in conservative states.

i believe that candidates show, what they want to show in order to appeal voters. and this very carefully planned actions and details, are just part of their marketing. of course, you can buy a product because the marketing
was good.
but in politics, i believe, the product should matter more then marketing. and by thinking those details are truly part of kerry, you seem to not see thru the skin to check the meat on both candidates.

 

[Archslater]

I wont be scared into voting in some pliable tool who tosses his war medals one day and proudly displays them the next. That in itself is enough to make me hate a man.

Hmmmm...
was it the next day, or was it 30 YEARS LATER?

Believe it or not, some people have a tendancy to change their opinions and beliefs over time as they grow older and learn move about the world. John Kerry isn't just "playing the role of war hero", but he is demonstrating that he fought for this country and then returned and discovered that he and his fellow soldiers were duped into believing that they were fighting for a just cause, when the opposite was true. This caused him to protest the war. You probably didn't know the whole story though, because the convention wasn't covered on Fox News.

 

[BostonBullit]

but in politics, i believe, the product should matter more then marketing. and by thinking those details are truly part of kerry, you seem to not see thru the skin to check the meat on both candidates.

so what is "the meat" of Kerry exactly? I know that GWB is a god fearin, silver spoon havin, not very good businessman guy that will act on his beliefs no matter what the rest of the world thinks. He'll tell you what he's going to do and then go do it, whether you like it or not. Kerry on the other hand can only stand there and for 20mins talk about A)what he did for 4mos of his life 30yrs ago and B)what he might do with his life in the next 4yrs. What I didn't hear anything about is what he's actually done in the past 20yrs while he's been down in DC representing me. If I went into a job interview and only talked about my 7th grade performance and what I was planning to do for the company for the next year they'd most likely want to know what all I'd been doing in the missing 18yrs between those two points....

 

[N8 v2.0]

To see the substance in canidate Kerry, just check out his 20 years of service in the Senate...

:crickets:

:crickets:

:crickets:

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

so what is "the meat" of Kerry exactly? I know that GWB is a god fearin, silver spoon havin, not very good businessman guy that will act on his beliefs no matter what the rest of the world thinks. He'll tell you what he's going to do and then go do it, whether you like it or not. Kerry on the other hand can only stand there and for 20mins talk about A)what he did for 4mos of his life 30yrs ago and B)what he might do with his life in the next 4yrs. What I didn't hear anything about is what he's actually done in the past 20yrs while he's been down in DC representing me. If I went into a job interview and only talked about my 7th grade performance and what I was planning to do for the company for the next year they'd most likely want to know what all I'd been doing in the missing 18yrs between those two points....

about the meat on kerry, and the meat on bush. or the meat on every candidate for any election.
that is their gvmt plans. but that the kind of "i will improve the economy", but their meassures for that, tax plans, security plans and stuff. and kerrys seems to be make more sense, as they are meassures that have been seen before and kinda work, GWBs on the other side are very wild and risky meassures that are in several cases irreparable if they cause damage.

well that is a nice example, you can go to the job interview and say, i´ll always, and have always acted according to what I believe straightforward. the problem is i fvcked up most of the time, AND i am not likely to take fixing meassures in the way. i´ve never shown regrets. i believe in easy answers.

the other might say, well yeah am full of doubts and i´ve shown regrets as i realize i´ve done wrong at more than one point. but i´ve also made good points in the way, finantially and politically.

so, who do you think might be better suited to be a CEO??? the first "infallible" guy with the many mistakes and no fixes and magical rods for answers, or the other guy of doubful steps.

after all its "nice" a lot of people try to believe dubyas (their leader) is sort of infallible or right because he seems to sure of himself. But i think that is a wrong impression or association. as one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[BostonBullit]

I have no misconception that GWB is infallible or right because he's sure of himself, I don't even agree with him a lot of the time. But Kerry's part of your story should say something more like "I realize that I have done absolutely nothing in my 20yrs of government service that I can be proud of. I can't point to anything that I did and say 'Your life is better/safer/cleaner because I did this', but I have a lot of ideas that I think you'll think sound great and if given the chance I'll spend the next 4yrs explaining why I can't make good on them". Kerry isn't a man of doubtful steps, he's a man of no steps or backtracks.

I don't like Bush, but I sure as hell don't like Kerry either. If someone can't say why Kerry would make a good president without mentioning Bush then they should simply admit that they are voting "ham sandwich" rather than try and convince themselves, and others, that they like the man.

 

[Changleen]

I think the gist of the original article, if you read between the lines is:

"Look, people, it's really really important that that fvckwit moron Bush doesn't get in again. He's dangerous.
He's singlehandedly destroying the environment, he's made the world about 100 times more dangerous with this shortsighted, big business inspired, hate fueled policies. It's gonna take us about a thousand years to get the Arabs to trust us worth 2 cents again. Everyone knows he can't even finish a proper sentance, and that's no way for the 'leader' of the 'free' world to be! On top of that, he's turning America into a fundamentalist dictatorship, he may well have actually planned 9/11 as well as failing to do anything about it, and he'll invade your country at the drp of a hat! He needs to go before he falls of his Segway again and lands on the big red button."

Try reading it again and you'll see what I mean. I'm not going to lie, Kerry may not be the best president ever, but I'd rather vote for a Banana, a Mouse, a Grandfather clock or a Ham sandwich before I ever voted for Bush.

 

[quadricolour]

He needs to go before he falls of his Segway again and lands on the big red button."

Hahahahahahaha!

 

[N8 v2.0]

Try reading it again and you'll see what I mean. I'm not going to lie, Kerry may not be the best president ever, but I'd rather vote for a Banana, a Mouse, a Grandfather clock or a Ham sandwich before I ever voted for Bush.

Of course you'll be voting..... in what..?? A New Zealand election..?

 

[Changleen]

There's more than one way to vote, N8.

 

[BostonBullit]

There's more than one way to vote, N8.

why do people from countries that don't matter all that much in the global scope of things spend all their time analyzing the US government?

 

[N8 v2.0]

why do people from countries that don't matter all that much in the global scope of things spend all their time analyzing the US government?

Because deep down they are wannabe's. Combined that with the fact that generally their own governments are rife with graft, incompetence etc and a lack of national presence on the gobal stage.. yadda, yadda...

Here for example is what's going on in the news in New Zealand at the moment: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storyarchive.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=general

:zzzzzz:

 

[Silver]

why do people from countries that don't matter all that much in the global scope of things spend all their time analyzing the US government?

Because if they don't stay on the good side of the US government, invasion or crippling trade sanctions seem to be the order of the day.

On the plus side, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are all on our side. With friends like these...

 

[BostonBullit]

Because if they don't stay on the good side of the US government, invasion or crippling trade sanctions seem to be the order of the day.

On the plus side, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are all on our side. With friends like these...

come on now man, you're not following the party line here, you know that the US ONLY invades or otherwise has any interest in a country that has oil. I would say that NZ is pretty safe unless we all of the sudden need a big supply of Mithreal

 

[Changleen]

I would say that NZ is pretty safe unless we all of the sudden need a big supply of Mithreal

Yup, Hopefully I'm pretty safe from the influence of people like N8 over here.

Unfortunately George Bush's stupidity affects the whole world, I have spent a lot of time in the US, I'm a mountain biker and I like this forum, and it is FORUM, so N8 trying to stop me posting my opinion because I'm not a US citizen is simply evidence to me of his inability to actually debate the issues here.

In fact telling anyone that their point of view is 'not relevant' is the weakest form of debate, and normally turns out to based on prejudice or racism.

Everyone has a right to their opinion (even N8), sometimes people are wrong (especially N8), and if so they can be argued down in logical debate, provided they are willing to stick around listen, or wander horribly off topic.

 

[Changleen]

By the way I'n not a New Zealander either...