Reviews: Vivid, D24s, Twenty6 Levers

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by mattmatt86, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

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    I've picked up a few parts over the past couple days and got them all installed today and went out for a ride so I thought I'd share.

    Rock Shox Vivid 5.1

    I was semi skeptical seeing as RS hasn't had the best luck with rear shocks in the past but I'm pleased to say that the shock is awesome. It was easier to setup and tune than my DHX 5.0. The small bump sensitivity was 10x better than the DHX and when I got up and cranked on the bike while going over some high speed rooty sections the rear end felt glued to the ground. I took it off a 8ft drop on our DH course and the landing was butter. Granted I've only ridden for about an hour with the Vivid but so far I am extremely happy with the purchase and would recommend it over the DHX.




    Michelin DH24 2.5 setup Tubeless with Stan's

    I had been a long time Maxxis man but I think I might have just found my new favorite tire. Previously I was running supertacky DHF 2.35 Minions but I was looking for something with a little more meat. The tires did add a good bit of weight but I'm not too worried. It was really muddy today so I ran the tires around 35psi and I was trying to get them to break loose in turns and had no luck. A lot of my buddies were having trouble through certain turns but the 24s never let me down. I did notice that they don't clean as well as other tires but I'm trying to find pics of different cutting patterns to try. I'm also anxious to see how fast they roll on dry terrain.





    Twenty6 Products Levers

    I first want to thank Tyler at Twenty6 Products for hooking me up with these levers, they are gorgeous and perform amazingly. After a little confusion with the installation I was able to get the stock levers out and the new ones in. I immediately noticed the decrease in the lever throw. I also noticed that the levers were much more rigid than the stock K24 levers which under hard breaking had the tendency to flex. The Levers also feel so much better than the stock ones, it's hard to describe but they just feel better. I'm usually a 1 finger braker and was curious to see how the levers would feel seeing as they are made for two finger braking but there was not a single issue. I already thought the K24's were amazing brakes, but the Twenty6 levers were cherry on top. Bottom line, give Tyler a call and get a set .





    Here's pics of how far the levers have to go until full braking







    Now for a couple random pics

    I counted all the spare tires around the apartment the other day and the number was kinda ridiculous, 34.












    And heres a pic of my latest project, I've been hand sanding/polishing my 45 dollar Azonic DS1 frame. I'm not sure exactly what I'm gonna do with it but I'm thinking maybe a DJ/Slalom bike.

     

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  2. bent^biker

    bent^biker Turbo Monkey

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    good reviews, those levers look like they'll be giving straitline a run for their money. I will be interested as to how the vivid performs long term.
     
  3. jonnynails

    jonnynails Monkey

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    Nice pink studded belt
     
  4. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

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    Thanks, it was for a pink and black party.
     
  5. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

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    i'm actually kind of interested in trying some michelin stuff instead of maxxis.
     
  6. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    can you comment on how well the low speed compression adjuster on the vivid works? and how it feels with alot of lsc?
     
  7. pelo

    pelo Monkey

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    Sounds like a great shock. I´m pretty curious about the lsc too.
     
  8. Broken_Spoke

    Broken_Spoke Mr. Big Hot Pastrami

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    What year is that DS1? My 2003 has square chain stays and the drop outs look nothing like that.
     
  9. dh_newbie

    dh_newbie Monkey

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    Hey Matt, thank for your review of the vivid. I am waiting for the Romic of th vivid use. Anyway, I also want to try the RS vivid in order to see how good it is!
     
  10. FCLinder

    FCLinder Turbo Monkey

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    Matt, my Vivid is in, but still waiting on a spring. Hope to have it on the Shova soon. Thanks for the review man.
     
  11. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

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    There isn't a LSC adjuster, its called "initial stroke rebound" but the adjustment performs a bit like LSC does. With very fast initial stroke rebound the rear tire feels glued while going over fast rooty and rocky sections, but with slower ending stroke rebound I don't get bucked when taking a big drop or jump.
     
  12. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    LSC = low speed compression... that big blue knob.
     
  13. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

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    Thanks buddy, I'm aware of what LSC stands for. And I said there isn't a LSC control but I didn't say that there wasn't a compression knob. It doesn't specify between low or high speeds so that's why I said there wasn't a LSC adjustment, and yes it's blue thanks.
     
  14. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    It is a LSC knob, it's just a needle adjuster like every other LSC knob, and like all LSC adjusters it adjusts LSC primarily and has some effect on HSC too (I am aware of no LSC adjusters that have no effect on HSC). You can keep talking down to me if you like though, which is pretty funny when you say there's no LSC adjuster, it's actually a rebound adjuster... :lighten:
     
  15. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

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    It has beginning Rebound Stroke, Ending Rebound Stroke and Compression adjustments. Nothing about hi or low speed anything. And I never said that the compression knob was a rebound knob, I just said it was a Plain old Compression knob and didn't specify between hi and Low.

    http://sram.com/en/rockshox/rearsuspension/vivid/#tab1

    You better E-mail Rock Shox and tell them they labeled all the knobs wrong.
     
  16. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    hahahaha, you bought a new rear shock and you don't even understand what kind of tuning adjustment it has. Great review, i especially like the part where you say the low speed rebound control acts like a low speed compression control: its called "initial stroke rebound" but the adjustment performs a bit like LSC does. too bad compression and rebound are total opposites, with each controling the shock shaft's ability to move in completely different directions :poster_oops:
     
  17. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

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    Have you ridden the Shock? Setting the initial rebound stroke on fast makes the rear shock track similarly to how my totem performs when I set the LSC on it to fast. That's where I was drawing the comparison from. I understand that Compression and Rebound are opposites but when riding over fast rocky, rooty sections the fast Initial rebound setting and a fast LSC setting perform very comparably. If you'd like to come over I'll let you try out the rear shock for yourself then you can call me a liar.
     
  18. Ian Collins

    Ian Collins Turbo Monkey

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    by saying "the adjustment performs like the lsc does".....he's right.....the LSR adjustment performs the same operation that LSC does, just in different directions......
     
  19. davetrump

    davetrump Turbo Monkey

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    sort of but not really

    high/low speed refers to the speed that the shaft is moving, while the beginning/end stroke rebound are position sensitive adjustments, not speed sensitive

    though i see where you are making a comparison between the two it is still apples to oranges
     
  20. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Ah just quit while you're behind dude, you started by saying it was a rebound adjuster.

    Like Socket said, the compression adjuster controls LSC because it's a needle valve adjuster (he's spent some time talking to SRAM about how the shock works). It might be labelled compression but it's specific to low speed, same story for the blue compression adjuster atop a motion control fork. It doesn't have to say LSC for it to be a well known fact that it is - once you've seen how the damper actually works.
     
  21. Ian Collins

    Ian Collins Turbo Monkey

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    true, but i thought the vivid was a speed sensitive damper?...boxxer controls are wacky in that regard.....not a position sensitive fork but people say that the gate controls HSC and the MOCO controls LSC while neither do either technically.....IMO both controls on the boxxer are quite useless and the fork worked much better for me after a brilliant person we both know tuned it to be truly speed sensitive........so my question is....is the vivd speed or position sensitve?
     
  22. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    the vivid is speed sensitive.
     
  23. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    on compression you mean? because begining and end stroke rebound sound pretty position sensitive to me.
    What is the range of the beginning and what is the range of the end stroke? 75/25 or 80/20 or whatever. Because with DH you can bottom on fast rooty stuf where you dont want to have a slow(er) end stroke rebound. Or is it actualy a speed sensitve rebound but to make it understandable for the average joe they called it beginning and end stroke?
    How did they realize a position sensitive damper for the rebound?
    the best tuning is still with the ccdb because there you only have speed sensitive adjustments and no position sensitive.
     
  24. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    nope, the whole shox is speed sensitive. its just called beginning and ending rebound, but there is sense to that i guess. the beginning of the stroke the spring is compressed less then it would be at the end of the stroke. so the lower shaft speeds would be at the beginning of the stroke and the higher shaft speeds would be at the end.
     
  25. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    yeah, I think you are right. Also matches with the info on the ccdb.
    quote on high speed rebound:Affects the response of the shock when returning from deep in the travel. Less rebound damping is good
    because it enables the wheel to return to the ground more quickly.


    So end stroke/high speed rebound shouldn't be used when you feel like being bucked over the bars after a drop. because high speed rebound only works when your rear wheel isn't touching te ground so it should be used for keeping the rear wheel glued to the ground with a lot of bumps after each other.
    when you land a big drop then there is a lot of weight on the rear wheel so your damper isn't capable of reaching high rebound shaft speeds dispite the big force of the spring or is this not correct.
     
  26. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    Or how bout I just point out that you clearly said it "wasn't an LSC adjuster" and that it was "called initial stroke rebound" (your exact words), which I'll point out again IS A TOTALLY SEPARATE ADJUSTER.

    So yes you did say that either that the compression knob didn't exist or that it was a rebound knob. Now that you're done being a knob - hopefully - maybe some productive discussion will come of the shock.

    djamgils - the shock is entirely speed sensitive as dhkid said, but the fastest rebound will always be fairly deep in the stroke as that's where there's the most spring force. The "beginning" and "ending" stroke rebound adjusters are indirectly position sensitive because of this, but in reality they are somewhat mislabeled - don't know why RS chose to do that but maybe they thought it'd make setup easier if people thought of them as position sensitive since most people have no idea how to set up high and low speed compression (which are far simpler to do IMO) let alone rebound.


    edit: and I think reviewing a shock when you don't even know what each knob does let alone how to set it up (yet is somehow "heaps easier to set up and tune than a DHX") after a whole hour of riding is a waste of time. But that's just me.
     
  27. FOXROX

    FOXROX Turbo Monkey

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    better yet, nice VCR :imstupid:
     
  28. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    agreed, I've found them more or less useless as well. what's the use of having 6 clicks of LSC when the first 3 barely do anything (and are often inconsistent) and the the 4th one almost stops the fork from compressing altogether? If you don't mind telling me, who is the 'brilliant person we both know' who tuned it and what did he do? there isn't much going on inside the boxxer damper, i can't imagine he did anything too complex.:nerd:
     
  29. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    easy there, no one has called you a liar so simmer down. but you do seem a bit confused as to what you are feeling and why. going by the above example you've already got the totem and the vivid set up with similar LSC so when you adjust the vivid low-speed rebound to 'fast' you are essentailly matching it to the same relative rebound setting as the totem. it might feel like you are making a compression adjustment, but you really aren't. you are really using less rebound to take advantage of the compression setting you already have.

    what it 'feels like' and what each adjustment is doing are not the same thing. a shock set up with very little LSC will track very well, however, if you have your rebound set too slow it will pack up and feel harsh. by running the LSR/beginning stroke rebound fast it lets you take advantage of your low LSC setting without worrying that on bigger hits the shock will rebound too fast. Now, if you ran the LSC a little heavier and left the rebound fast you might end up with the same packed-up feel; not because the shock was packing up, but because it wasn't compressing enough. similar feel, two completely different reasons.

    in short, the reason running low initial rebound feels like running light LSC is because the suspension is free to be pretty active on those types of bumps and compliments the light LSC setting very well, as opposed to a rear shock (or your fork) that uses more-or-less the same rebound setting through its travel and has to compromise a bit. That's why there are 2 rebound adjustments, so you can take advantage of being able to run faster low speed rebound without things getting ugly on big hits.

    I'm going to hazard a guess that being able to adjust LSR/begining stroke rebound separately might also let you get away with running a little more LSC damping without the bike feeling totally dead(something along the lines of what DIRT felt when they tested Hill's bike).

    the difference in what each does is important to understand. If the bike is wallowing in corners or seems to absorb too much input from the rider when trying to hop over rough terrain or pre-jump or bobs excessively then you want to make a change to the LSC circuit. If you treat the adjustments as having a similar effect you won;t fix the problem. if, in fact you then went ahead and added more LSR/beginning stroke rebound instead you would have a bike that still wallowed under cornering (perhaps even more so) and responded poorly to rider input. it might not bob as much, but only because the shock wasn't rebounding fast enough any more. So no, they really are not similar apart from the mechanics of how each one works (ie physically restricts the flow of oil in a given direction).

    you really can't tune a shock well until you understand why each adjustment makes your shock perform a certain way.
     
  30. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    wiat, are you saying that more LSC will make the bike feel dead? i feel the opposite, it makes my bike feel lively, get more of a pop when jumping or exiting berms.
     
  31. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    jumping and railing berms are a small part of a dh track. . . but i agreed, a little more LSC can make a bike more lively feeling to some people since less of their input (and weight transfer) is absorbed by the suspension. However, there are times when this gives the rear suspension a sort of vague, dead feel if the rebound setting is set too slow (as often is the case for it to be set correctly on the rest of the tack). I like the idea of being able to run higher LSC but with quicker rebound for all those places on a DH track where i'm not railing berms or hitting jumps; you know, the actual bumpy parts
     
  32. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    oh alright, i get what you mean with the slow rebound. thats why i cant stand slow rebound.
     
  33. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    It is speed sensitive, the amount of damping is a function of the speed, not the position. The blue knob on the Boxxer does adjust LSC clean and clear, it does nothing else. The floodgate thing controls the THRESHOLD where the fork transitions between the LSC curve and the HSC curve, which IMO is actually more useful than adjusting the HSC curve itself, because it allows you to really adjust LSC to whatever the hell you want (really - Udi ran his fully locked out with a super weak threshold for a while and it worked fine).

    General Lee - I agree the clicks thing is stupid, but there's a fairly simple solution - take the blue knob off so there's no detents any more.
     
  34. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    Ah you're kind of right with the LSC/liveliness thing... adding more damping will only ever absorb more of the energy you put into the suspension (and mean that the springs compress less which means that you have less to help you bounce out), but adding more LSC means that the bike doesn't compress as far (and thus for as long) whenever you pump it or whatever, so the rebound reaction when you want to pull up/hop/bounce the bike comes sooner. IMO this is the main reason why it feels livelier as well as more stable.
     
  35. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    I reckon the best way to use the boxxer damper is to find a setting that provides adequate LSC damping, while not being locked out at all, and then use oil weight to get the amount of damping right.

    The right position for that is pretty much 2 clicks back from closed. Make sure there isn't a "half click" at the end of the adjustment range too, as that'll mess with that ideal position. If there is a half click, you can tighten/loosen the reverse-threaded topcap a small amount from the plastic damper spring tube (with the damper assembly removed from the fork) until the last click/position is a complete one.

    Anyway after you've done that, just use oil weight to get the amount of damping right. I've been running Silkolene Pro RSF 5wt for the last year and a half (26cst) and find that it provides the perfect amount of damping for me. Socket's heavier than me and running the RSF 7.5wt (at a similar setting from what I could feel) which makes sense.

    I reckon removing the detented adjuster is no good (at least for me) coz my bike gets crashed, bumped, and rubbed against in shuttles heaps. Having the adjuster means you can have the exact same setting day in day out... that's just me though.
     
  36. miuan

    miuan Monkey

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    Udi: do you still have all your shims removed with your current setup?
     
  37. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Ah yeah, speedstack free since 06.

    I pretty much tried all sorts of silly stuff when I first got the fork (running it locked out + blowing off fast like socket mentioned) but I settled on a good setting/setup pretty quick and haven't changed it in over a year now.
     
  38. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    Somebody on mtbr stated that even with the floodgate off it still matters what the position of the floodgate is. Is this true? And what do you mean that it controls the transition from lsc to hsc, what is the result of that? If this is true then it could be considered as a mid speed compression adjuster?
     
  39. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    I don't get what you mean by "even with the floodgate off it still matters what the position of the floodgate is". Can you please clarify that statement?

    You have the blue knob, that's your LSC adjuster. In tandem with the shim stack (if you have it in there), this determines how much LSC you have. When the Moco unit "blows off", ie reaches the floodgate threshold, what is actually happening is the LSC piston being pushed back far enough (3mm is the furthest it can go) that the LSC plate at the bottom is "bottoming out" on the floodgate adjuster, and thus being separated from the LSC piston. When this happens, the plate and the piston are obviously separated, which has the same effect as a shim stack opening by being pushed off a piston (though not as finely adjustable/tunable obviously, it's preset). This gives you a fair degree of HSC damping anyway. What the floodgate adjuster does, is determine at what point you go from forcing all oil through the LSC port (so you have essentially a quadratic speed/force curve), to allowing the plate/piston to open and let more oil through there (which has a curve which would have to be of a much lower gradient, probably regressive too, than the quadratic LSC curve).

    Attached a pic I hope illustrates the idea better. It's not a mid-speed compression adjuster, it simply adjusts how much force (and to a much lesser extent speed) is required to cause the LSC curve to transition into a HSC curve.
     

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  40. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of the fact that the floodgate on the boxers isn't the same as the floodgate on the totem, pike, etc. I was refering to the totem so thats why I sounded off to you and why I didn't understand. Just read the manual of the boxer and now it is clear.