Was it after Giant plagiarised him? I remember there were times when he was more open about stuff.
RideMonkey How To Series: Throwing a Tantrum in Public
I think you did this in Vacuum because you did nothing to prove me or anyone else here otherwise. You talk about facts. Present them.
So since I don't agree with you my mindset is not that suited to be an engineer. And you claim people call you stupid?
Here's an easier challenge. By the numbers presented by the engineers here, what pressure would I have to start in the shock, to achieve a 30% sag level with a 185 pound rider.
Simple math, simple question. Any takers?
i'm going to work, I'll be back to play later
Simple math, simple question. Any takers?
i'm going to work, I'll be back to play later
Engineering is a bizarre mindset. I've met many people, both at their university and in the work place that were not well suited. Some realize it and go in a different direction, some don't.
My comment was based on the fast that you state you are an engineer that does not do engineering work. I will make an assumption that if you were good and you WANTED to do engineering work, you would. The logical conclusion would be either
1) you do not want to do engineering work
or
2) You cannot get hired to do engineering work
Either one points to "maybe not cut out to be an engineer"
i do recall dw being skeptical about the veracity of scaling pictures to generate any meaningful analysis. pretty sure he actually scoffed at the idea on a couple occasions. perhaps said techniques have been proven to be reasonably accurate since then; i've not the nerdyness to delve into such things on any meaningful level. that said, the proof is in the pudding; i'll reserve judgement until i see some proper independent reviews. tbh, i'm kinda curious how it works in the wild.
if nothing else, this has been an entertaining exchange. been a bit quiet here for a bit.
Harsh crowd.
Did you guys even look at what this dude has done, no matter how kooky or irritating he is? I had his floating caliper mount on a Bullit and the thing worked great. And that was like 15+ years ago. Check his website....
RM crowd, please raise your hand if you have actually designed and fabricated anything more complicated than a PB&J sandwich.
Now raise your hand if you have an actual degree in mechanical engineering.
I am betting not many hands up here......
And the whole "climbs like a hard tail, descends like a DH bike" really is the holy grail of mtn biking (not saying this one does that).
Fox has literally spent millions on the Live Valve project, Specialized and the many iterations of the Brain, etc, etc.
I would love to try out a bike if you ever come out to Santa Cruz!
Did you guys even look at what this dude has done, no matter how kooky or irritating he is? I had his floating caliper mount on a Bullit and the thing worked great. And that was like 15+ years ago. Check his website....
RM crowd, please raise your hand if you have actually designed and fabricated anything more complicated than a PB&J sandwich.
Now raise your hand if you have an actual degree in mechanical engineering.
I am betting not many hands up here......
And the whole "climbs like a hard tail, descends like a DH bike" really is the holy grail of mtn biking (not saying this one does that).
Fox has literally spent millions on the Live Valve project, Specialized and the many iterations of the Brain, etc, etc.
I would love to try out a bike if you ever come out to Santa Cruz!
I find this thread hilarious. I haven't read everything so i have no idea whats going on anymore but 12 fucking pages....yeehaw. Mr. Tantrum really needs an ID person because that looks like an engineer designed it......and he needs some PR help.
BS. Mechanical Engineering
designed, and fabricated the following things
carbon Suspension bicycles
carbon Road bicycles
snowboards
snowboard bindings
snowboard boots
googles
helmets
gopo accessories
ipad accessories
military boats
fire dept boats
and footwear.....
wow - as a long time lurker who've thoroughly enjoyed this forum for a number of years, i must say, tantrum cycles - or Brian - while the Trump comparisons might be a bit harsh, i must admit to finding some of your rants/drivel plain embarrassing to read and at times a bit unworthy. I am sure you and your years and years of experience and your wealth of social networking - including being as fortunate as knowing past world champions no less - gives you an excellent starting point in designing and manufacturing bikes.
However, you are also the guy who sold Kona on the whole magic link calamity, a suspension design that probably nearly undid Kona and unquestionably harmed the brand. Sure, it might have been a fantastic idea, but it is an overly complex solution to an issue that a lot of users don't really find to be an issue at all. Yeah, it was probably the execution and shit poor tolerances by some Taiwanese manufacturers that undid the design, not your solution to the issue being addressed - but still, at the end of the day - whenever i see one of those bikes i feel sorry for the owner. The funny thing is that Kona's current suspension design isn't all that elaborate or fantastic, but guess what - proper geo, shock tunes and decent spec'ing of their bikes have done more for the reemergence of the brand than the magic of your link ever did.
So while i am expectantly looking forward to hearing someone else than RC give his/her two cents concerning your the missing link design, indeed the missing link of bicycle suspension no less, in the end i will prob move on by on in my yesteryear horst link capra and single pivot makulu, and be none the worse for it.
Now, if you can muster as much positivity into this thread from now on as you thus far knowingly or not have added scorn, sarcasm and know-it-all-mannerisms, or introduce as much positive enthusiasm as you've allocated to your design, well then i salute you. You have quite a way to go, as you've singlehandedly turned people who are genuinely interested in your design and want to learn more about it into a negative crowd.
but like Trump, you sure get people talking about your design. I'll give that to you.
However, you are also the guy who sold Kona on the whole magic link calamity, a suspension design that probably nearly undid Kona and unquestionably harmed the brand. Sure, it might have been a fantastic idea, but it is an overly complex solution to an issue that a lot of users don't really find to be an issue at all. Yeah, it was probably the execution and shit poor tolerances by some Taiwanese manufacturers that undid the design, not your solution to the issue being addressed - but still, at the end of the day - whenever i see one of those bikes i feel sorry for the owner. The funny thing is that Kona's current suspension design isn't all that elaborate or fantastic, but guess what - proper geo, shock tunes and decent spec'ing of their bikes have done more for the reemergence of the brand than the magic of your link ever did.
So while i am expectantly looking forward to hearing someone else than RC give his/her two cents concerning your the missing link design, indeed the missing link of bicycle suspension no less, in the end i will prob move on by on in my yesteryear horst link capra and single pivot makulu, and be none the worse for it.
Now, if you can muster as much positivity into this thread from now on as you thus far knowingly or not have added scorn, sarcasm and know-it-all-mannerisms, or introduce as much positive enthusiasm as you've allocated to your design, well then i salute you. You have quite a way to go, as you've singlehandedly turned people who are genuinely interested in your design and want to learn more about it into a negative crowd.
but like Trump, you sure get people talking about your design. I'll give that to you.
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I just don't like the people in my field of work. I like the people in bikes but I like money too much and I got a job I didn't know existed (and my 5 year old would love it) so i took the chance and now I get to argue with people about movies and get proven right every week (with real numbers or as you call them facts). Life is not as easy as you present it though it's nice you work so hard to put down your oponents. To be honest all you had to do was be a bit less defensive about it and I'm quite sure this thread would be much more positive (though probably less fun). I still want to see some reviews from some of the more respected reviewers
Hi Woodbooger,
Be CAREFUL talking about the floating brake here, It has been disproven over and over on RM, if I recall, by some of the participants here..
In spite of that, The Bullit floater was our biggest seller of all time. That was a fun time. I remember spending plenty of time discussing the merits and the claims it was BS on this and other forums. Same acrimony, same angry naysayers. Same result. I sold everyone I could make.
I have not been to Santa Cruz, but I know there is awesome riding and I do have business partners there. Maybe next Sea Otter. Drop me an email from our website, please.
Wisco (pistons?)That is a cool career. Do you have a website or portfolio for public viewing?
Glad you're enjoying the show.
Wait, I wanna see the googles. I'm guessing goggles that let you see the answer to everything. Can we borrow them for this thread?
i'm with you. dude obviously has a clear vision of what he wanted to accomplish, and who his target audience is. we are clearly not it. we are the all singing all dancing crap of the world.
the Magic Link grossed Kona around US$40 million. Ya, it undid them all the way to the bank.
Yes, the first year we had 1 tolerance issue in particular, the cradle where the Magic Link sat was originally CNC'd. When they decided to forge it, they forgot about the draft angle and having to machine the walls parallel afterward. This lead to a lot of "tail wag" in the early models. I had customers ship bikes to my house so I could fix them. But we did, and moved on and the Magic Link bikes sold out every year to great reviews.
They would still be making the bikes, but I chose to end the license.
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What, so yuo don't like being an engineer. That's ok. I'm glad you found something you like to do. Pull you down?? Mr. Norbar, I remember one of my very first posts here. You were WAAAAY angry, before I even got here. I even asked you why you were so angry. You stood out. Put you down. Re-read your own vitriol, sir. I've been called every name in the book with personal attacks.
The only thing I'm attacking is this idea that you can scale 8 pivots to plus or minus 2 mm, then claim you know how the bike rides in the face of evidence to the contrary. I will continue to point out the futility of such an excercise to anybody that wants to argue that point.
You will see plenty of reviews. Eventually, as you all know and have pointed out, actual numbers will be available. I'll be really curious to see the reaction from you and others who are so adamant that I must have no clue.
Mr Lahey,
I'm in the Indy area, not that far. Is that near Columbus? Please drop me an email on our website.
Also, does anybody ride at Vietnam? I have a chance to do a couple demo rides there in the near future.
yo you should totally make pivots with those grip shimz things, so the pivots themselves move!
As an engineer you should know the saying, "In God we trust, all others bring data." My casual perusing of this thread has turned up very little data (unless you are God in which case, carry on) to support the claims you are making. Granted it personally doesn't matter to me either way, but presenting data leads to discussions whereas dataless claims just devolve into pissing matches like this thread has become. If you are worried about the theft of intellectual property you can take solace in the fact that your IP is protected by your patent here in the US and the Chinese don't give a shit and will steal it anyway.
Are you referring to Vietnam as in Milford, MA Vietnam?
Are you referring to Vietnam as in Milford, MA Vietnam?
Sandwich, I knew there was another valid question somewhere in the pile.
I the suspension is at full extension, by definition, you are climbing. Therefore going pretty slow. So the result is not too different from any bike. The back wheel will ride into the hole and the bike will follow it. If you are on a steep enough climb to extend the suspension, most of the weight is on the rear wheel. This is true of all bikes. So it's not like a bike that is riding at 30% sag is going to "drop" the wheel into the hole while the bike stays level. At that speed, the whole bike just follows the ground.
I have stated numbers, specifically that the graph shown has fully 70% of the values off the chart. That is to say, 70% of those values never occur in real life. As in, not even close.
I also mentioned the LR drops 8 % from sag to 50% travel, then levels out.
But you seem to think I need to make a pretty graph for those numbers to be true. And you wouldn't believe them anyway. Why would you believe those same numbers if I put them on a graph? You have already decided the values plucked from a photo are correct.
Just because your mindset is not suited to engineering does not make you stupid. I know many brilliant non-engineers. I never said that once.
You are way correct, very little data at all.
I've mentioned many times, I'm not really worried about having an engineering discussion here, I didn't start this thread. I came here to talk about what the bike DOES in real life, not on paper. The devil is in the details. Some are angry that I won't share those details.
IP is a total crap shoot and a really bad system. Patent law awards the rich. Oh well, should I quit? No fun in that. So we go in with as much protection, and yes, secrecy of actual data for as long as possible. It at least gives you a jump on the market. It's pretty SOP for IP.
Yes, Vietnam in Milford.
I presented this challenge earlier in the day. SOMEBODY (you know who you are), responded with a post, protesting that it was a trick question because all air shocks were differently and you could tel the spring curve, etc.
Then, suddenly, that post was deleted. I think it was the same person that claimed forks were difficult to analyze because of the aforementioned variables, but rear suspension was easy, because it did not have such variables.
Anybody care to fess up? And repost their answer?
and the challenge still stands. The presented analysis (by the pundits) has enough "data" to derive the answer.
Jeebus, he's now quoting his own posts. Eventually he'll be the only one left to argue with. Now that's brilliant !
I stand by what I posted (it was factual), if you want to know why I deleted it - it's because I felt like a jerk for picking on the new kid. It's a tough crowd here and I'm certainly part of it. If I lived near you, believe it or not I would very happily ride your bike with an open mind.
FYI - no it doesn't have enough data - that's why no one has answered it. This is basic F=PA (highschool physics, hardly engineering), so unless you provide fixed area values for the air piston/s, many different pressures can give the same spring force.
Another longtime lurker here to talk some sense into Brian.
First of all, Brian, you are acting like a real idiot. There are a lot more industry people reading this than you probably realize. People who are well aware of the fact that you have been trying the license this design for a few years now with no takers. I personally remember seeing the one with all the links ano'ed different colors of the rainbow at Eurobike a few years back.
I am sure I am not the only one quietly laughing to myself when you talk about Hodaka (the factory where your frame is built) holding pivot tolerances to less than 2mm on alloy frames.
Also you should realize that bashing Linkage is not going to make you any new friends either. I personally know of 4-5 real OEMs we have all heard of who use that program for their designs. You probably thinking right now after reading that last sentence, its why all their designs suck compared to yours. In my opinion that program has been rigorously vetted and improved upon by those who use it professionally. No one cares if you built your own Excel spreadsheet to do your math, and in fairness, I am sure your spreadsheet is not error free.
After having read this entire thread so far as it is the most entertaining bike thing happening on the internet, in the interest of keeping it going I have a few questions:
With all the various links on the frame and bearings between them, it looks like the load on some of the bearings could be really high, especially near top out. Like the bearing just above the shock for example. Any thoughts on that?
Also is there a frame weight somewhere? maybe I missed it, but it looks like all that hardware would add up.
Any thoughts on how the linkage of the Tantrum affects the stiffness of the bike?
First of all, Brian, you are acting like a real idiot. There are a lot more industry people reading this than you probably realize. People who are well aware of the fact that you have been trying the license this design for a few years now with no takers. I personally remember seeing the one with all the links ano'ed different colors of the rainbow at Eurobike a few years back.
I am sure I am not the only one quietly laughing to myself when you talk about Hodaka (the factory where your frame is built) holding pivot tolerances to less than 2mm on alloy frames.
Also you should realize that bashing Linkage is not going to make you any new friends either. I personally know of 4-5 real OEMs we have all heard of who use that program for their designs. You probably thinking right now after reading that last sentence, its why all their designs suck compared to yours. In my opinion that program has been rigorously vetted and improved upon by those who use it professionally. No one cares if you built your own Excel spreadsheet to do your math, and in fairness, I am sure your spreadsheet is not error free.
After having read this entire thread so far as it is the most entertaining bike thing happening on the internet, in the interest of keeping it going I have a few questions:
With all the various links on the frame and bearings between them, it looks like the load on some of the bearings could be really high, especially near top out. Like the bearing just above the shock for example. Any thoughts on that?
Also is there a frame weight somewhere? maybe I missed it, but it looks like all that hardware would add up.
Any thoughts on how the linkage of the Tantrum affects the stiffness of the bike?
Magura?
Udi,
thanks for your nod toward civility
Your post WAS factual. That's why I wanted to use it. It was thoughtful response to a valid question. And I was referring back to your exact quote on page 10:
"Keep in mind that frame kinematics (bump absorption, acceleration, braking, geometry - both static and dynamic) can be represented and calculated analytically with great ease. This is different from a suspension fork (for example) which has internal friction and spring/damper rate factors which cannot be calculated from static external measurement. The end result is that it's pretty easy (for someone with the right tools and knowledge) to say whether a frame will or won't suck, compared to things like shock absorbers or brakes which have more dynamic variables."
This is kinda my point. Even if you DID have all of the exact pivot locations, predicting its ultimate behaviour could be a little tricky due to the facts you mentioned above. It has a shock in it. The fact that it is compounded by some crazy approximation of the linkage behaviour just makes it worse.
So, for example, when I talk about overlaying a rising rate air spring curve over a falling rate linkage, several people have made definitive comments about how that can't possibly be good . Without any of the knowledge you (and I'm agreeing) are stating is important
Also, I think anybody hear with enough interest could grab a caliper and go measure a shock shaft. For the record, the X'fusion is 28 mm in diameter.
Here's another valid question: Once the Live valve gets developed a bit more, do you think it will open doors to different solutions in suspension design? We've already seen a bit of revival of the simple single pivot due to improvements in shock technology. New technology offers the ability to use solutions that were not possible with older technology. This has always been the case in the history of man.
What used to be unworkable can become a potential advantage when combined with new technology.
I love this opening. Obviously, I am the name calling jerk in this forum......
Which "sense" might you talk me into, mr sanchez? The sense that my life in racing and engineering has been a waste and I am wrong about everything?
I'm really not sure what you (or the others) would have me do.
I have not called a single person a derogatory name. I have answered every valid question, even some very invalid questions. While I am not and never will be the most patient man, it would've been fairly easy to respond in kind to everyone having fun calling me names, posting pictures of trump, saying I'm an idiot, etc.
It's pretty easy not to. I know the forum deal, tough to keep any discussion on track.
But if you think talking sense into me includes;
1) giving my exact dimensional data
or 2) saying an analysis based on a scaled picture is not a sad joke for an engineering analysis
not gonna happen
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But I will answer your questions and correct your inaccuracies.
1) Hodaka is not making my frame, the protos or the production models. I wonder where you got that "fact"
2) I was not referring to Hodaka when I mentioned a factory that could not hold +/- 2 mm on shock eye-to-eye. Where did you pull that from?
For the record, Hodaka did make the Magic Link bikes. Yes, they did have a problem with the first batch, but overall, I thought they were a great factory and great people to work with. I enjoyed it immensely and learned a TON about mass production, (compared to the CNC world I had come from). One of the best, funnest experiences of my life. I actually got to ride my bike on old monk trails with the guy that welded my frames.
So, no Hodaka bashing from me.
Linkage is just another tool. Those of us that have been designing and racing linkages in every kind of wheeled vehicle for decades have used many, many tools over the years. If a professional bike designer wants to use this tool, feels it's accurate for their purposes and feels the real life correlation is good enough, good enough for me, I don't care.
But again, don't put words in my mouth, especially the nasty drivel that many of you like to heap on me. I never said anybody's design sucked.
I am pretty sure I could just about any midrange bike off the rack and have an absolute blast. Bikes are pretty damn good. And you what? Even when bikes sucked, they didn't suck. If we were riding solid tires and coaster brakes, we'd have a blast.
So quit with trying to incite me and others putting your words in my mouth. If you have a real question, just ask.
I do have some issues with Linkage, but more specifically, the idea that scaling 8 pivot point and link lengths from a pic and declaring factual conclusions is a joke. Feel free to quote me on this and repeat it often.
I'm glad you can be so sure my spreadsheet has errors. Could you point them out to me so I can correct them?.