It is the American way to hold out one's hand for cash when one injures oneself uninsured. We call it the Rhino_DH way for short.
RideMonkey How To Series: Throwing a Tantrum in Public
I have a big problem with this logic. You see, if I actually want to eat and live, I have to sell the frame for more than it cost me. It will be hard for me to make money if I sell or trade frames for what I paid. Now, I could just sell the frame for $2500 and pay a graphic designer much less (their quotes, not mine). But for a bike enthusiast who actually wants a frame, this seemed like a good idea.
And the response has been great so far. A lot of interest from some very talented designers. Pros. With websites and portfolios. I'm really looking forward to the results.
[QUOTE="norbar, post: 4146734, member: 21894
Not to mention dou you reall think only silicon valley employed graphic designers work for this rare thing called a salary? Last time I have heard we are partaking in a dangerous sport so it is nice to be afford to visit a doctor when I brake my arm. If a company cannot afford to pay a US wage then they can hire someone from Eastern Europe. The wages here are much more affordable and a graphic designer doesn't have to be on site. Otherwise design it yourself or well convince a friend. Not take advantage of some random kid. I love how there is a huge number of people who think you can work for credit or as part of a competition. Ffs this is not threadless.[/QUOTE]
mr. Norbar, why, exactly, are you so angry? We're just having fun. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. We are not taking food out of working designers mouths. The truth is, if my local pro guys (who agreed to enter the contest after doing the original art) didn't come up with something good, I was gonna do it myself. Where is that black spray can anyway?
But here's another artistic parallel. i play in a band. Professionally. It is not my day job, nor do I want it to be, but it could be. I play because I love it. I will also play for free on certain occasions. Many of my "day job" musician friends look down on me for this. They say, we're pros, we don't play for free. And they struggle to get enough gigs.
Then, I will do a free gig somewhere and it will result in 3 paid gigs, just because someone saw us play. Sometimes, I end up hiring the same musicians, who can't get this work on their own because they won't play for free.
wood booger is right, people are stoked on this. They might get to design the graphics for a production bike they OWN. i don't know if you are in the bike industry or not, but designing something in production is fun. You get to enjoy your work. You get to see other people enjoy your work (or tear it to shreds on the intraweb, as the case may be). I'm happy to give people the chance.
Not to mention dou you reall think only silicon valley employed graphic designers work for this rare thing called a salary? Last time I have heard we are partaking in a dangerous sport so it is nice to be afford to visit a doctor when I brake my arm. If a company cannot afford to pay a US wage then they can hire someone from Eastern Europe. The wages here are much more affordable and a graphic designer doesn't have to be on site. Otherwise design it yourself or well convince a friend. Not take advantage of some random kid. I love how there is a huge number of people who think you can work for credit or as part of a competition. Ffs this is not threadless.[/QUOTE]
mr. Norbar, why, exactly, are you so angry? We're just having fun. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. We are not taking food out of working designers mouths. The truth is, if my local pro guys (who agreed to enter the contest after doing the original art) didn't come up with something good, I was gonna do it myself. Where is that black spray can anyway?
But here's another artistic parallel. i play in a band. Professionally. It is not my day job, nor do I want it to be, but it could be. I play because I love it. I will also play for free on certain occasions. Many of my "day job" musician friends look down on me for this. They say, we're pros, we don't play for free. And they struggle to get enough gigs.
Then, I will do a free gig somewhere and it will result in 3 paid gigs, just because someone saw us play. Sometimes, I end up hiring the same musicians, who can't get this work on their own because they won't play for free.
wood booger is right, people are stoked on this. They might get to design the graphics for a production bike they OWN. i don't know if you are in the bike industry or not, but designing something in production is fun. You get to enjoy your work. You get to see other people enjoy your work (or tear it to shreds on the intraweb, as the case may be). I'm happy to give people the chance.
I am starting my own contest. To enter just design and build a custom bike that will only fit me. I will pay the winner sub-market prices and let them have the honor of having me ride their bike.
Back to the task at hand. Pretty sure all of my submissions top the list. Two more brilliant ideas
Or just include a sheet of bee stickers with each bike, everyone loves bee stickers.
Or just include a sheet of bee stickers with each bike, everyone loves bee stickers.
I started a new thread for the graphics, you know, to keep the hate for the graphics separated from the hate for the suspension design. They can be dangerous if intermingled (you know who I'm talking about)
Googlie -eyes on the headtube.
Dude looks like he is loosing his shit anyway - throw on some G-eyes and yer set.
Dude looks like he is loosing his shit anyway - throw on some G-eyes and yer set.
This is starting to make sense, you also got the linkage design via contest?
Dude, don't take it too hard.
This place is worse than herding cats.
I'm just surprised that it has only taken a couple of swerves and stayed pretty much on swerve.
This place never fails to deliver
This place is worse than herding cats.
I'm just surprised that it has only taken a couple of swerves and stayed pretty much on swerve.
This place never fails to deliver
Me? Haha, stirrin the shiite is old hat for me, haters gonna hate and I'm gonna laugh. Super fun. And obviously, lots of intelligent discussion and input.Dude, don't take it too hard.
This place is worse than herding cats.
I'm just surprised that it has only taken a couple of swerves and stayed pretty much on swerve.
This place never fails to deliver
Yes, in fact I did. I entered a contest with myself. No guarantee of anything. No pay, no success, no assurance that it would even work. I worked hard for a long time. I paid money for patents and prototypes. This is what I won:
“Does the impossible; pedals like a hardtail and delivers a plush ride over the bumps-without levers or electronics”.
”The Missing Link delivers the goods. Compared to the current crop of carbon superbikes, the Tantrum Meltdown performs well on the downs-essential for any 160-millimeter trail bike-and its pedaling action is better than all of them”.
@Tantrum Cycles Do you work for free ?
You have poured a ton of energy into defending your suspension design in this thread in such a way that begs for respect. But when you come up with some bullshit contest for a free frame because you're too cheap, it just demonstrates your utter lack of respect for other professional designers.
I routinely, but politely, tell people who want free work to fuck off. And no serious designer/artist/craftsman will start any project without a deposit, usually 50%. I never take anyone seriously until that happens. And why you might ask ? Because I have rent, bills, over-head, materials and then all the other monthly expenses that anyone else has.
You call it a contest, I call it taking advantage of those who simply do not know any better.
Work for free ? Kiss my ass !
You have poured a ton of energy into defending your suspension design in this thread in such a way that begs for respect. But when you come up with some bullshit contest for a free frame because you're too cheap, it just demonstrates your utter lack of respect for other professional designers.
I routinely, but politely, tell people who want free work to fuck off. And no serious designer/artist/craftsman will start any project without a deposit, usually 50%. I never take anyone seriously until that happens. And why you might ask ? Because I have rent, bills, over-head, materials and then all the other monthly expenses that anyone else has.
You call it a contest, I call it taking advantage of those who simply do not know any better.
Work for free ? Kiss my ass !
Mr Angry Metalsmith. Thanks for your input. I will not be expecting an entry from you. Or hopefully, any other angry person. This contest is not for you. It's for people that WANT to. Taking advantage of?? How. They are voluntarily entering a contest for a chance at a prize potentially well above the value of their work. They are happy about the chance. And some of the entrants have nice websites and portfolios and will be proud to add this if they win.
I had/have an option of using a graphic design intern. Guess what. They work for absolutely free. And there are some incredibly talented people. taking advantage of?? Hardly.
You're not the only one with rent. Am I cheap? I paid a pro last time, look what it got me. And yes, frugal is the word of the day. Starting a bike company as an individual is somewhat difficult. I've always said I never could've gotten this far without a little help from my friends, same going forward.....
So you paid a pro. Did you look at examples of their work before hiring them ? Give them direction ? Ask to see roughs ? Give approval for final design ?
I'm guessing there is more to the story than your telling us.
So you'll be giving away frames to anyone who wants one then. I must admit that's altruism worthy of any mountain bikers' admiration.
Bravo Sir.
All of the above. Award winning graphics design firm. Lotsa cool stuff. Good artists. I gave them the headtube badge (my design) and told them they were show bikes and I wanted them to stand out. And I wanted them to be different. So, the young, hip designer, artist dude came up with a rough. He said it would look like MX stuff (somewhat true). i had some comments about some of the colors, fonts, the whole thing, but, I wanted to leave it up to the artist.
I also thought it looked a little contact paper-y. He said he was going for a wrap look and it allowed him to use more color/shapes. Fine. People loved it, people hated it. It did the job, but I am not looking to repeat that process.
I guess that's part of the problem. The guy did it for a paycheck. All this talk about paycheck. Did he gave a shiit? I'm sure he did, he's a pro, he has pride. But I never got the feeling he had any passion for it. That's what I want.
Money can't buy that.
Back in my day commercial design contests were less controversial - a good way to garner publicity for a new product and an additional path for an artist to get recognized and add a REAL commission to their portfolio.
My advice is to make them available in plain.
My advice is to make them available in plain.
Rarely is a fortune ultimately made from the efforts of the fortunate.
Mocking aside. I am still seriously skeptical about that linkage and the progression rate or whatever you want to call it. Sure it will climb well, but once it moves from a bump it looks like it would blow through the travel. Your video seems to confirm this, looks like you are damn near bottoming out the suspension on a climb. Are you blasting into the climb to get the suspension to move?(shrewd and crooked marketing move) or does this thing blow through the travel during slow climbing bumps, this is a fine means of slacking out the bike during climb causing it to float and wander like a hippy with a 55 gallon drum of lsd.
If it blows through the travel climbing, what the hell happens when you hit shit fast going down hill? Not to mention that spring rate or whatever is going to be a bear to handle rebound at top out. That just might give you some good old forward rotation when you try to leave the ground, better wear a Leatt or have a gumby neck.
If it blows through the travel climbing, what the hell happens when you hit shit fast going down hill? Not to mention that spring rate or whatever is going to be a bear to handle rebound at top out. That just might give you some good old forward rotation when you try to leave the ground, better wear a Leatt or have a gumby neck.
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No human trafficing. Just normal remote work. People outside programing and journalistm can work remote.I am saying that full time, with a salary and full insurance, ID guys working for another company are often stoked on projects like this. No, the Demo graphics weren't designed for beer. More like the full salary guy that got paid to design the Demo graphics helped a small company out in his spare time for some! Why? Because he has passion for graphic design.
I think a kid fresh out of school would be the same. Stoked to see his/her design out in the world and with something to put on their resume. I don't think anyone is taken advantage of.
I don't know what kind of ID-human-trafficking-slave-trade stuff is going on over on your side, but it sounds shitty.
Having said that, here is my entry!
I call it White Hype.
![](http://<a href="http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/woodbooger2/media/bike%20stuff/snow_ball_zpsdwhlzucn.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l507/woodbooger2/bike%20stuff/snow_ball_zpsdwhlzucn.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo snow_ball_zpsdwhlzucn.jpg"/></a>)
I also understand how can you get stoked on a project. That doesn't mean a big company should exploit it.
If your business plan is ok you will sell enough frames and bikes to be able to afford a designer. Not for a wage they get paid in other better paying industries. It can be a shit wage since all bike industry jobs are very low compared to their equivalents anywhere else. I'm not saying you should be paying silicon valley 80k/year for a graphic designer. I'm saying you should just pay him at all. That is all.
Also if you can't live off your business then get a job. Preferably one that won't pay you in bike frames if you win a competition against hundrets of other people. Sorry but you feel entitled to making money off your project yet you deny the same to the people who work for you.
Also @Tantrum Cycles it's not hate. You are just pulling a Tony Ellsworth and can't take criticism. You expected universal praise. You got something else. I'm not hating you. I'm just pointing you are doing something that is ethically wrong from my point of view and many graphic designers are very angered by such practices.
So you have to work for free to have a passion for your project? If you looked for a company with accolades instead of similar sensibility to yours then it's YOUR mistake. I now get it. The contest is because you don't know how to manage and find designers to work with so you need a buffet of designs to know what you like.
Tantrum, the issue you are running into is that you are being seen as taking advantage of a group of workers that are financially stressed as a whole. Graphic designers as well as other artists that work in industry (photographers for example) are more numerous then there is actual demand for (however, the number of really good designers is likely less than demand). Therefore it's a group more likely to be underpaid and more likely to take on work that's not helpful to the long term situation for their entire profession (as more people in the profession take on lower paying work, it has a long term effect of dragging down pay for everyone in that profession - look at photography as an example).
As much as I get a kick out of seeing a designer try to defend a suspension design despite plenty of mathematical and empirical data counter to each of his claims, countering only with "You don't understand" and "You have to ride my bike that isn't in production to appreciate it", I really don't think there's anything wrong with the contest. If you put shit in, you'll get shit out; so if he wants a grade school graphic designer putting hello kitty stickers on his frame, he'll get it. If an actual designer thinks his frame is good enough compensation, so be it.
Any idea how long it would take to design and map out graphics for bike? Do they pay for muse?
The problem is that then some other "i can't make money if I pay people" copany owner does his own contest and soon after all we have are contests and no one really gets paid. Not to mention I assume after you win the contest there is still a ton of work to be done which you aren't paid for since there is a huge difference between a fast mock and having a polished design ready for production in larger quantity.
Also I don't think it's the case of there being too many graphic designers. There is a ton of people doing translating jobs and no one works for props. Some just get shit pay.
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That's a MIGHTY big leap from point A to Z... how soon after are you predicting a contest based economy?
It's not a leap. It's a real problem. Ffs go to any designer group, post a contest and see the response. Maybe it happens less where you work but here? It happens all the time. Jesus the national police bureau here did a contest and the award was literally props and a diploma. Many designers I know of constantly get asked to work for props, in barter or as part of a contest. I don't mean once every half a year. I mean once every week or two.
Not really sure. Depends how good the client's detail and description would be. Is the client providing drawings to go off? Then there is always the creative meetings with suggestions, alterations, re vamps etc....can be a nightmare. Since this would have none of that it could be somewhat fast I would guess a week or so.
Be skeptical, but open to logic and evidence. Eventually, you'll ride one.
In the video, at the bottom of the climb is a pretty good g-out. You come blasting down a hill, across a bridge and try to hit the bottom with all the speed you can, while simultaneously grabbing a handful of gears for the effort at the top. You have to hit it fast or you won't make the climb (at least I won't).
Also, the bike doesn't use as much travel as it appears. It's a little deceiving to look at, as the last 15 mm of shaft or so are not visible due to the shock being sunk into the frame. The amount of travel the Tantrum uses there is about the same as every other bike I've ridden there for the past 15 years.
look at the end of that video, that's where the slow climbing bumps are. Two roots. You can see the shock is fully extended when I hit them. You can see the shock quickly deflect to absorb them as I continue pedaling hard. You can then see the shock stay at full extension for the crest of the climb, slowly settling back to sag as it flattens out.
So, the opposite of slacking out, it absorbs the bump but stays STEEP.
When you hit shit fast going DH? Smooth, plush, bottomless. Fun
This one hilarifies me...BIG COMPANY EXPLOITS WORKERS. Look for me in the Fortune 100. Sam Walton and I do lunch.