[Tantrum Cycles]

If your business plan is ok you will sell enough frames and bikes to be able to afford a designer. Not for a wage they get paid in other better paying industries. It can be a shit wage since all bike industry jobs are very low compared to their equivalents anywhere else. I'm not saying you should be paying silicon valley 80k/year for a graphic designer. I'm saying you should just pay him at all. That is all.

Also if you can't live off your business then get a job. Preferably one that won't pay you in bike frames if you win a competition against hundrets of other people. Sorry but you feel entitled to making money off your project yet you deny the same to the people who work for you.

Also @Tantrum Cycles it's not hate. You are just pulling a Tony Ellsworth and can't take criticism. You expected universal praise. You got something else. I'm not hating you. I'm just pointing you are doing something that is ethically wrong from my point of view and many graphic designers are very angered by such practices.

Oh ya, I love this one too. I have 2 models of bike to sell. Do you really think I want or need a full time graphic designer at this point??

Also, YES, the person that designs the graphics will be getting paid nicely. 4 runners up will also get "paid". Ok, paid if they buy a bike, fair enough, but we're assuming they wouldn't enter if they didn't want one.

Can I live off my business? As an inventor, designer, entrepreneur, it can be touch and go. Sometimes, I do really, really, really well. Other times, I spend a lot of time and money on a project or idea (working for free), and I decide for one reason or other to put it on the shelf or direct my energies elsewhere.

Get a real job??? NFW. I walked away from the most real job I ever had, professional race design/engineering, when my bike biz involvement started to take over in the mid 90's. Haven't had a real job since and don't want one. I love what I do. I get paid to ride my bike. And play music. Not much, in either case.

I don't care. I love what I do. Why else is anyone in the bike industry? As I wrote that, I frowned and thought, "I know that's not true". There are plenty who hate their work here, too. Maybe they should get another job.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

from Norbar "Also @@Tantrum Cycles it's not hate. You are just pulling a Tony Ellsworth and can't take criticism. You expected universal praise. You got something else. I'm not hating you. I'm just pointing you are doing something that is ethically wrong from my point of view and many graphic designers are very angered by such practices."

sure it's hate, it's the internet. That's what it's made for. Luckily, love too. It all works. Hate is good PR, too.

Believe, I've been here long enough to know better than expect universal praise ANYWHERE FOR ANYTHING. Nor do I want it. Criticism is good, even if sometimes ignorant or misinformed. Or, just another opinion. But the internet is special for haters. We all know that, don't act like that's a surprise. I've met people in the past who have ripped me or my products to shreds on the internet. And they're usually a little embarrassed when they admit their handle was "IHATEYOU" on the forums. It's just easy to spew when you're invisible.

BTW, I didn't even start this thread, I had to renew my long dormant account just to join the fun

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

So you have to work for free to have a passion for your project? If you looked for a company with accolades instead of similar sensibility to yours then it's YOUR mistake. I now get it. The contest is because you don't know how to manage and find designers to work with so you need a buffet of designs to know what you like.

Of course you don't have to work for free. But most people do when they're working on their passion, right? Don't you? Unfortunately, most people don't like their job or the people they work for and have no passion. You're lucky if they even show up on time. Commercial artists (and musicians) can be particularly jaded. I get it, as an artist, you want to do what your mind sees as art. And you end up doing posters for a sandwich shop to the owner's artwork. Probably not what you envisioned as being an artist.

So I made the mistake of picking a company that had a good reputation. Hmmm.

Similar sensibility??? Seriously? I'd just polish and clear coat them. That's what I like. Who cares? I'm not hiring an artist to think like me. Exactly the opposite. I want to give the artist a chance to show me HER (or his) art.

I'll like it when I see it.

You are correct on one count. I don't know how to manage. Not a manager. Never been a manager. Never really wanted to be a manager. Too much bossing people around.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Tantrum, the issue you are running into is that you are being seen as taking advantage of a group of workers that are financially stressed as a whole. Graphic designers as well as other artists that work in industry (photographers for example) are more numerous then there is actual demand for (however, the number of really good designers is likely less than demand). Therefore it's a group more likely to be underpaid and more likely to take on work that's not helpful to the long term situation for their entire profession (as more people in the profession take on lower paying work, it has a long term effect of dragging down pay for everyone in that profession - look at photography as an example).

Hi DJ, I get that. BUT, graphic designers around here don't seem to be financially stressed. They're all driving kitted out 4 x's. But, they don't work in the bike industry. And you did make on way IMPORTANT point. The number of good designers is likely less than actual demand. So, if you suck at your job and are starving because of it........

The response I'm getting from entrants is overwhelmingly positive. Many of these are serious pros with nice websites and portfolios. I have put forth this topic as a question to them when they enter. They know the score. Their excited for the chance. And, in the process, I'm meeting some cool, talented people. People that, in fact, I will want to send further business. Even if they don't win. Hmm, so they might get paid for their free work, just like when I do a free gig. It WORKS!!!

It's actually way cool. In retrospect, despite the hate, one of my best moves.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

As much as I get a kick out of seeing a designer try to defend a suspension design despite plenty of mathematical and empirical data counter to each of his claims, countering only with "You don't understand" and "You have to ride my bike that isn't in production to appreciate it", I really don't think there's anything wrong with the contest. If you put shit in, you'll get shit out; so if he wants a grade school graphic designer putting hello kitty stickers on his frame, he'll get it. If an actual designer thinks his frame is good enough compensation, so be it.

Haha sandwich, this is the funniest of all. Does it interest you that the mathematical "data" is nothing of the sort? A bad scaling of a bad picture where you can't even see where the shock mounts? Where at least 40% of the "data" I've seen presented is highly inaccurate? And what is this "empirical" data of which you speak???

So, if someone is using bad math, or a poor understanding of the physics involved, how should I answer? Should I say "of course, you are correct. My math is all wrong and the bike doesn't do what I think ,even though I've been riding it for some time"? The bottom line is, they simply don't understand. They're not quite grasping everything that's going on. It's not easy. If it was easy, somebody else would've come up with it.

I mean, of COURSE you have to ride it to appreciate it. It IS all BS till then. My claims, my math, all of it. So is everyone elses. You say there's data to counter my claims. There's no data, just opinion. I'm guessing, mostly from people that don't do this for a living.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Going by this thread, just put this sticker on the frame. Done.

View attachment 122839

that would be a great HT badge.

 

[Sandwich]

Haha sandwich, this is the funniest of all. Does it interest you that the mathematical "data" is nothing of the sort? A bad scaling of a bad picture where you can't even see where the shock mounts? Where at least 40% of the "data" I've seen presented is highly inaccurate? And what is this "empirical" data of which you speak???

So, if someone is using bad math, or a poor understanding of the physics involved, how should I answer? Should I say "of course, you are correct. My math is all wrong and the bike doesn't do what I think ,even though I've been riding it for some time"? The bottom line is, they simply don't understand. They're not quite grasping everything that's going on. It's not easy. If it was easy, somebody else would've come up with it.

I mean, of COURSE you have to ride it to appreciate it. It IS all BS till then. My claims, my math, all of it. So is everyone elses. You say there's data to counter my claims. There's no data, just opinion. I'm guessing, mostly from people that don't do this for a living.

yeah, measuring and plotting ratios from pictures isn't that complicated. Quite frankly, I trust the people that do it. The bikes aren't necessarily 100% accurate, but you can get a good idea of how the bike is going to behave from that analysis. There may be something lost in translation in subtle changes, but it's unlikely that you're bending physics. If their analysis is wrong, then what's wrong about it? Does the falling rate change to a progressive rate due to shifts in pivot position? Why not post a generic shock rate chart showing how the bike should perform? Why not discuss anti-squat values? The value is in the implementation, not the numbers.

As for empirical data, I've ridden falling rate bikes. Progressive rate bikes ride better. I've ridden bikes with low and high antisquat values. I can tell you that a bike with a falling rate isn't one that I would buy, and it's not one that I would recommend, no matter how much "magic" is behind the linkage that drives it.

One of the most well received bikes conceived in recent times has been the megatrail, which does exactly nothing new. It just does things well because of careful design. What you're saying is that your bike is better, even though it flies in the face of the most commonly accepted design goals for bikes, because you say so, and we're expected to believe that?

 

[Serial Midget]

Not really sure. Depends how good the client's detail and description would be. Is the client providing drawings to go off? Then there is always the creative meetings with suggestions, alterations, re vamps etc....can be a nightmare. Since this would have none of that it could be somewhat fast I would guess a week or so.

That's a lot of non productive activity... I'd look for a tattoo artist instead.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

The response I'm getting from entrants is overwhelmingly positive. Many of these are serious pros with nice websites and portfolios. I have put forth this topic as a question to them when they enter. They know the score. Their excited for the chance. And, in the process, I'm meeting some cool, talented people. People that, in fact, I will want to send further business. Even if they don't win. Hmm, so they might get paid for their free work, just like when I do a free gig. It WORKS!!!

I don't want to call you a liar, but I just don't believe any of the above to be accurate.

Care to share some examples ?

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Haha sandwich, this is the funniest of all. Does it interest you that the mathematical "data" is nothing of the sort? A bad scaling of a bad picture where you can't even see where the shock mounts? Where at least 40% of the "data" I've seen presented is highly inaccurate? And what is this "empirical" data of which you speak???

So, if someone is using bad math, or a poor understanding of the physics involved, how should I answer? Should I say "of course, you are correct. My math is all wrong and the bike doesn't do what I think ,even though I've been riding it for some time"? The bottom line is, they simply don't understand. They're not quite grasping everything that's going on. It's not easy. If it was easy, somebody else would've come up with it.

I mean, of COURSE you have to ride it to appreciate it. It IS all BS till then. My claims, my math, all of it. So is everyone elses. You say there's data to counter my claims. There's no data, just opinion. I'm guessing, mostly from people that don't do this for a living.

This is where it pays to hire a professional. In this case a photographer. But maybe you can have another contest. I'm sure a large swath of professional photographers would love to use their ridiculously expensive equipment for free.

 

[norbar]

Oh ya, I love this one too. I have 2 models of bike to sell. Do you really think I want or need a full time graphic designer at this point??

Also, YES, the person that designs the graphics will be getting paid nicely. 4 runners up will also get "paid". Ok, paid if they buy a bike, fair enough, but we're assuming they wouldn't enter if they didn't want one.

Can I live off my business? As an inventor, designer, entrepreneur, it can be touch and go. Sometimes, I do really, really, really well. Other times, I spend a lot of time and money on a project or idea (working for free), and I decide for one reason or other to put it on the shelf or direct my energies elsewhere.

Get a real job??? NFW. I walked away from the most real job I ever had, professional race design/engineering, when my bike biz involvement started to take over in the mid 90's. Haven't had a real job since and don't want one. I love what I do. I get paid to ride my bike. And play music. Not much, in either case.

I don't care. I love what I do. Why else is anyone in the bike industry? As I wrote that, I frowned and thought, "I know that's not true". There are plenty who hate their work here, too. Maybe they should get another job.

You can just hire a designer to do like 2 designs and pay him for 2 designs instead of paying him a full time salary. You are just looking for excuses not to do so. People do it all the time. Hell I know people with businesses generating <1000$ per month who still pay if a designer does their packaging or logo. Even if it's some small amount of money that is probably less than what your frame is worth. They do it on principle. Hell a friend who is doing his PhD recently needed help from a graphic designer for some science contest (with no pay at the end) yet he still payed the guy who helped him. You have no excuse.

sure it's hate, it's the internet. That's what it's made for. Luckily, love too. It all works. Hate is good PR, too.

Believe, I've been here long enough to know better than expect universal praise ANYWHERE FOR ANYTHING. Nor do I want it. Criticism is good, even if sometimes ignorant or misinformed. Or, just another opinion. But the internet is special for haters. We all know that, don't act like that's a surprise. I've met people in the past who have ripped me or my products to shreds on the internet. And they're usually a little embarrassed when they admit their handle was "IHATEYOU" on the forums. It's just easy to spew when you're invisible.

BTW, I didn't even start this thread, I had to renew my long dormant account just to join the fun

You just want to call it hate because than you can dismiss legitimate criticism. It is rather cowardly. Instead of entering into a dialogue with someone you create a false conflict so you don't have to listen and you can reduce his arguments without even refering to them.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

yeah, measuring and plotting ratios from pictures isn't that complicated. Quite frankly, I trust the people that do it. The bikes aren't necessarily 100% accurate, but you can get a good idea of how the bike is going to behave from that analysis. There may be something lost in translation in subtle changes, but it's unlikely that you're bending physics. If their analysis is wrong, then what's wrong about it? Does the falling rate change to a progressive rate due to shifts in pivot position? Why not post a generic shock rate chart showing how the bike should perform? Why not discuss anti-squat values? The value is in the implementation, not the numbers.

As for empirical data, I've ridden falling rate bikes. Progressive rate bikes ride better. I've ridden bikes with low and high antisquat values. I can tell you that a bike with a falling rate isn't one that I would buy, and it's not one that I would recommend, no matter how much "magic" is behind the linkage that drives it.

One of the most well received bikes conceived in recent times has been the megatrail, which does exactly nothing new. It just does things well because of careful design. What you're saying is that your bike is better, even though it flies in the face of the most commonly accepted design goals for bikes, because you say so, and we're expected to believe that?

No, scaling a drawing isn't complicated. I do it on occasion. However, I would never claim absolutes as is claimed in these forums.If you have any suspension design experience, you know that a few mm here and there change things drastically. There's a reason I ran hundreds of iterations with slight changes at each point. To watch all of the interactive effects and make sure they were all moving in the right direction. There is no way you can scale from a picture with anything close to the accuracy needed to properly evaluate this linkage. There are simply too many complex interactions.

i have stated what the rate does in these forums. But, according to the internet experts, I'm either lying or stupid, because it doesn't agree with their numbers.For the record, the rate falls pretty steeply from full ext to sag, still falls but flattens out at 40-50% travel and is linear the rest of the way. Combined with a low volume air can, there is significant rising rate in the overall spring curve.

BTW, I know exactly what you don't like about falling rate. It's likely that I have ridden more combinations than you might ever (this would make you a lucky person in many cases). Those characteristics are not present in the Missing Link. Why not? I wouldn't like it.

Have you looked at the website tech page? There are plenty of curves to show what's happening. Are they exact engineering data? Hell no. Not gonna. Why not discuss anti-squat values? They are not that important. The interaction of the Missing Link in combination with the driven link from the rockers has effects far beyond anti-squat. Any other suspension discusses anti-squat because, well, that's all they have. That and LR.

And that's the problem with your empirical data. It's from a suspension design that cannot do what this can. This suspension has extra capability. This allows me to use all of the traditional suspension design parameters and characteristics in a different way. So, you are using the wrong measuring stick. If this was another 4 bar, faux bar, short link, long link, etc, your experience would be more relevant. Apples to apples. This is different. it can't be confined to those traditional ways of discussing suspension action.

I have no interest in coming out with another megatrail or any other current design. Good for them, nice bikes are nice.

I'm a lifetime rider, racer and suspension design professional. My entire career. I want MY bike to be better. I came up with a way to make it so and want to share it. if you want a nicely done conventional suspension with a nice AS and LR, good, it will be a great bike. If you want something that can do things that those bikes can't do, by definition, you need something completely different. I have that.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

You just want to call it hate because than you can dismiss legitimate criticism. It is rather cowardly. Instead of entering into a dialogue with someone you create a false conflict so you don't have to listen and you can reduce his arguments without even refering to them.

Nailed it !

It's starting to become obvious why he doesn't like to manage.

 

[norbar]

No, scaling a drawing isn't complicated. I do it on occasion. However, I would never claim absolutes as is claimed in these forums.

Jesus. No one in this topic claimed absolutes. Everyone talking about the characteristic told you it is an aproximation and asked you if it's even remotely close to the truth. How can people can ask you for clarifying their aproximation yet claim it's an absolute? I fail to see logic there. I hope your suspension has more of it than this post.

@AngryMetalsmith exactly. The sad part is even after a contest you still have to do some damn managment. A mockup is far from a final design. I also wonder whether he really knows what he wants. If not no contest will help here. A creative director would but then you can't make a contest for a person picking the winners in another contest.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I don't want to call you a liar, but I just don't believe any of the above to be accurate.

Care to share some examples ?

Funny. Yes, I can share some examples, but if I'm a liar, wouldn't I just make those up!?? True testimonials, NOT paid actors. I will ask the participants, and after the contest, maybe you can ask them yourselves. At this point, they may not want there identity known for fear of being labeled scabs.

I get a variety of positive comments, but it boils down to this; they're happy for the chance, it's a fun project. I have asked them all specifically about this. One guy mentioned that most such contests, there is no real prize, just recognition.I can certainly see that viewed in a negative light.

Since there are very real prizes available, not just to the winner, but the top 5, this is a bit unique.

again, I want to go to the music analogy. There is a thing called "battle of the bands". Basically, you and a few other bands enter and play a set and the crowd votes. You play for free.

But if you win or place, you get a paid gig and if you do that well, continued gigs. Some musicians hate it. We don't work for free. Kiss my ass. Club owners taking advantage of starving artist musicians. I look at it differently. Those musicians watch me play for free, get gigs from it and still don't like it. Or me.

I'm actually ok with a contest based economy. I like it. I mean, that's exactly what I'm doing starting a bike company, right? I am competing. If I'm no good. I lose. Nobody pays me. nothing. I'm done.

Bring it.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

This is where it pays to hire a professional. In this case a photographer. But maybe you can have another contest. I'm sure a large swath of professional photographers would love to use their ridiculously expensive equipment for free.

Wait, I'm not the one complaining about scaling a photo......

 

[norbar]

Funny. Yes, I can share some examples, but if I'm a liar, wouldn't I just make those up!?? True testimonials, NOT paid actors. I will ask the participants, and after the contest, maybe you can ask them yourselves. At this point, they may not want there identity known for fear of being labeled scabs.

I get a variety of positive comments, but it boils down to this; they're happy for the chance, it's a fun project. I have asked them all specifically about this. One guy mentioned that most such contests, there is no real prize, just recognition.I can certainly see that viewed in a negative light.

Since there are very real prizes available, not just to the winner, but the top 5, this is a bit unique.

again, I want to go to the music analogy. There is a thing called "battle of the bands". Basically, you and a few other bands enter and play a set and the crowd votes. You play for free.

But if you win or place, you get a paid gig and if you do that well, continued gigs. Some musicians hate it. We don't work for free. Kiss my ass. Club owners taking advantage of starving artist musicians. I look at it differently. Those musicians watch me play for free, get gigs from it and still don't like it. Or me.

I'm actually ok with a contest based economy. I like it. I mean, that's exactly what I'm doing starting a bike company, right? I am competing. If I'm no good. I lose. Nobody pays me. nothing. I'm done.

Bring it.

You don't want to use the music industry as an example of NOT exploiting someone.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

You can just hire a designer to do like 2 designs and pay him for 2 designs instead of paying him a full time salary. You are just looking for excuses not to do so. People do it all the time. Hell I know people with businesses generating <1000$ per month who still pay if a designer does their packaging or logo. Even if it's some small amount of money that is probably less than what your frame is worth. They do it on principle. Hell a friend who is doing his PhD recently needed help from a graphic designer for some science contest (with no pay at the end) yet he still payed the guy who helped him. You have no excuse.




You just want to call it hate because than you can dismiss legitimate criticism. It is rather cowardly. Instead of entering into a dialogue with someone you create a false conflict so you don't have to listen and you can reduce his arguments without even refering to them.

I'm not looking for any excuse. I did it the first time (hire a pro) and I want to try something different. As I mentioned earlier, the response has been great, and there are people I will do biz with in the future even if they don't win this contest. Why? I like them. I like their ideas. And they want to go after it. I like that.

It's internet hate, it's fine. i didn't invent it. And you might notice, I'm not hiding anywhere. I'm the most publicly visable of all you guys. And I engage and try to answer all legitimate comments. You might notice many of these come from you.

Cowardly? I'm the one getting called a liar, scam artist, a thief, a snake oil salesman, unethical, dastardly (ok, I wish that one). All by anonymous internet denizens. I ain't a scared of you guys.

I wonder where this false conflict is? What exactly, sorry, you lost me there.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Nailed it !

It's starting to become obvious why he doesn't like to manage.

I just don't like bossing people around. you know, telling them what to do.

 

[norbar]

And you might notice, I'm not hiding anywhere. I'm the most publicly visable of all you guys. And I engage and try to answer all legitimate comments. You might notice many of these come from you.

Cowardly? I'm the one getting called a liar, scam artist, a thief, a snake oil salesman, unethical, dastardly (ok, I wish that one). All by anonymous internet denizens. I ain't a scared of you guys.

I wonder where this false conflict is? What exactly, sorry, you lost me there.

Ehh this is getting tireing. The fact you are posting back doesn't really mean you are responding to questions. It's not a discussion if all we get from your is either "cant tell you more because people will still my design" or "you are a hater if you don't like my idea". Good luck with your ideas. Though I trully believe with different aproach to the forums you would have gotten a much more positive response, probably a lot of support and maybe even some decent imput like some designers did here in the past. Hell a different approach might have even netted you a decent graphic designer talking to you which would probably cost you less than it costs you to give away your frame.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Jesus. No one in this topic claimed absolutes. Everyone talking about the characteristic told you it is an aproximation and asked you if it's even remotely close to the truth. How can people can ask you for clarifying their aproximation yet claim it's an absolute? I fail to see logic there. I hope your suspension has more of it than this post.

@AngryMetalsmith exactly. The sad part is even after a contest you still have to do some damn managment. A mockup is far from a final design. I also wonder whether he really knows what he wants. If not no contest will help here. A creative director would but then you can't make a contest for a person picking the winners in another contest.

Not true, the guy that posted the curves in contention IS claiming absolutes. And the rest are using his bad data. When they ask, I always correct them.

I've repeated my data over and over. The people with the bad data claim their data is better. Or I'm a liar. One guy actually said " your bike might do what you say but not for the reasons you say it does." Cracked me up. I said "then I'm the luckiest guy since Newton". All my calculations were wrong, but i got the right answer.

As for knowing what I want?? A nice looking bike. I'll know it when I see it.

 

[norbar]

I just don't like bossing people around. you know, telling them what to do.

Starting a company may not be a solution to that problem

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

You don't want to use the music industry as an example of NOT exploiting someone.

Not exactly talking about the music industry, nobodies making records here. More like the music scene. Is it friendly, hell no. Why? too many musicians for the market, for one thing. Period. But I will always support club owners that play live music instead of dj's. Even playing there for free to get paid gigs.

 

[norbar]

Not exactly talking about the music industry, nobodies making records here. More like the music scene. Is it friendly, hell no. Why? too many musicians for the market, for one thing. Period. But I will always support club owners that play live music instead of dj's. Even playing there for free to get paid gigs.

Yeah no club owner ever screwed over a band. Especially the ones who don't pay for concenrts.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Funny. Yes, I can share some examples, but if I'm a liar, wouldn't I just make those up!?? True testimonials, NOT paid actors. I will ask the participants, and after the contest, maybe you can ask them yourselves. At this point, they may not want there identity known for fear of being labeled scabs.

I get a variety of positive comments, but it boils down to this; they're happy for the chance, it's a fun project. I have asked them all specifically about this. One guy mentioned that most such contests, there is no real prize, just recognition.I can certainly see that viewed in a negative light.

Since there are very real prizes available, not just to the winner, but the top 5, this is a bit unique.

again, I want to go to the music analogy. There is a thing called "battle of the bands". Basically, you and a few other bands enter and play a set and the crowd votes. You play for free.

But if you win or place, you get a paid gig and if you do that well, continued gigs. Some musicians hate it. We don't work for free. Kiss my ass. Club owners taking advantage of starving artist musicians. I look at it differently. Those musicians watch me play for free, get gigs from it and still don't like it. Or me.

I'm actually ok with a contest based economy. I like it. I mean, that's exactly what I'm doing starting a bike company, right? I am competing. If I'm no good. I lose. Nobody pays me. nothing. I'm done.

Bring it.

That's a whole lot of typing to deny a simple request. Smells a lot like bullshit to me.

"At this point, they may not want there identity known for fear of being labeled scabs."

So you are admitting that you are knowingly taking advantage of designers ?

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

@Tantrum Cycles I'll admit that you did get one thing right with this project. The company name is spot on for your unabridged, whiney, defensive posts. Perhaps you might suggest to one of your aspiring graphic design contestants the image of a crying baby for the logo.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Ehh this is getting tireing. The fact you are posting back doesn't really mean you are responding to questions. It's not a discussion if all we get from your is either "cant tell you more because people will still my design" or "you are a hater if you don't like my idea". Good luck with your ideas. Though I trully believe with different aproach to the forums you would have gotten a much more positive response, probably a lot of support and maybe even some decent imput like some designers did here in the past. Hell a different approach might have even netted you a decent graphic designer talking to you which would probably cost you less than it costs you to give away your frame.

I'm really happy with the response from the forums. The people that don't like the bike, don't like me or my attitude, don't like change, can't believe anybody could come up with anything new or better. It's all part of it. I have answered every legitimate question, even though it is quite difficult to keep up.

And I have received great positive input. The highest coming from professional engineers who appreciate the time, effort and unique nature of what I've come up with.

You nailed it. I could've hired any NUMBER of graphic designers for less than the frame. So, you admit, the value of my prize IS more than a designer might get for such a project. $2500 for $50/hr

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Starting a company may not be a solution to that problem

other people will manage. People that like that and are good at it. I have bikes to design and internet to rile.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

That's a whole lot of typing to deny a simple request. Smells a lot like bullshit to me.



So you are admitting that you are knowingly taking advantage of designers ?

Deny that I share private emails without asking the sender?? Seriously?

no, I was being sarcastic about the scab comment. I was a teamster way, way back. Wasn't really a fan of unions then. But I never went on strike.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

@Tantrum Cycles I'll admit that you did get one thing right with this project. The company name is spot on for your unabridged, whiney, defensive posts. Perhaps you might suggest to one of your aspiring graphic design contestants the image of a crying baby for the logo.

Haha, I love it! I admit, I'm having a little too much fun here.

We discussed the crying baby, perfect tantrum image, but I wanted more the adult female. A more serious tantrum, with bigger implications.

 

[jstuhlman]

just wrap the bike with images of the contents if this thread. lots of e-tantrums going on!

 

[Toshi]

This thread has gone about as well as I expected it to. Invoking supra-physics magic always goes down well.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

just wrap the bike with images of the contents if this thread. lots of e-tantrums going on!

that would be kinda cool

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

This thread has gone about as well as I expected it to. Invoking supra-physics magic always goes down well.

No kidding. It's gonna be fun to revisit a few months down the road. Some more mag and intra-web tests coming up this year. Oh, ya, I'm not paying for them and have no advertising. I have been told I would never get tests in mags without ad money. But I am. Hmm.

Maybe string theory is real

 

[Sandwich]

No kidding. It's gonna be fun to revisit a few months down the road. Some more mag and intra-web tests coming up this year. Oh, ya, I'm not paying for them and have no advertising. I have been told I would never get tests in mags without ad money. But I am. Hmm.

Maybe string theory is real

Oh god please tell me you got Richard Cunningham to test it. That would be the best.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Oh god please tell me you got Richard Cunningham to test it. That would be the best.

that's old news. But eventually, they all will

 

[norbar]

.

You nailed it. I could've hired any NUMBER of graphic designers for less than the frame. So, you admit, the value of my prize IS more than a designer might get for such a project. $2500 for $50/hr

Yes but the difference is Instead of paying 1-5 people a few hundret bucks to a total of 500-2500$ you are paying a few people more an a ton of people NOTHING. I'm not acusing you of not wanting to pay but of using a shitty mechanic to do so. One that happens very often and really fucks up the market for designers.

 

[norbar]

I'm really happy with the response from the forums. The people that don't like the bike, don't like me or my attitude, don't like change, can't believe anybody could come up with anything new or better. It's all part of it. I have answered every legitimate question, even though it is quite difficult to keep up.

Sorry but this is some agressive bullshit. So people are either forced to like your bike or you will basically call them inflexible and opossed to change? Strangely when Hugh from I- Track posted his design here the same people who have problems with your bike were very positive about it. So is his suspension not groundbraking enough for you and it only works for us simpletons who are against progress? I love the attitude of trying to put down and insult anyone who doesn't like your bike. I'm asuming the contest for a PR manager hasn't found a winner.

PS. You also received negative imput from professional engineers in this topic. Start trying to distort reality and pretend profesionals love you and only angry trolls hate you.

 

[dump]

Oh god please tell me you got Richard Cunningham to test it. That would be the best.

Not sure if you're joking... but if you're not:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-tantrum-missing-link.html

 

[Jm_]

Watched the video on the website. Holy blowing-through-travel on the climb! That was like 80% of travel, if not more. If it's going through that much travel at that slow speed up rough terrain, I can't see how it's going to work on faster/rougher.