[Jm_]

Toshi, (and the rest) not to make you name names, but, are there any mags or sites, you feel ARE more objective?

I think Krob does a pretty good job : http://www.stuckinthespokes.com/2014/07/22/interbike-outerbike-demo-reviews/#sthash.umInFDXV.dpbs

He has more recent reviews, but I think they are posted in thread-format. He seems to have no huge biases or anything at stake, just wants to get out and ride the new bikes and see how they do. There's a level of honesty there that I simply don't find in magazine/site reviews.

 

[shirk007]

Please get a test bike to Andrew Major for www.nsmb.com

 

[Toshi]

Blistergearreview.com

 

[norbar]

Blistergearreview.com

That's where @kidwoo writes? @Tantrum Cycles the guy I tagged is probably one of the more respected reviewers here so if you really want to put your money where your mouth is.

 

[mykel]

..as far as the numbers go, you are only delaying the inevitable by a few weeks.

As soon as somebody gets one of your frames out of your sight, out comes the ruler / calipers.
The measurements get taken, and into Linkage they go.

Why not just cut the bull, and post them up.
Then you can have a MEANINGFUL conversation with teh regarding actual numbers.

All we are doing now is having a rainstorm by us all pissing into the wind.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I want to talk about the process of invention, design and analysis and why it seems to be difficult for people to grasp what's happening. Please don't take this as anything but a serious dicussin. no snark, no condescending, plenty of that already and always time for more later. I mean, it is the internet. but let's pretend we're siting around after a ride, having a beer and you've decided to listen to me speak for a sec, without having to respond to your banter.

the below is just my opinion. it's a kinda of how I came to work like I work and how I've had the success I"ve had. It's how this bike came to be.

Engineers and people i will call "tuners", want to make thing better. We tune, we tweak, we modify. We look at any given system and try to improve it, solve its problems. This typically involves analyzing it with whatever measuring sticks we have and making modifications. This is all grear, but it can lead to a bit of "blinders on" way of looking at things.

How? I'll use shocks as an example...A long time ago, racing moto, I became a test rider for a shock co. I had no idea what was inside, I just told them what I felt. later, I started tearing them apart and changing shims, etc, tuning them, Maybe making bigger ports, etc. Later on, in car racing, still doing the same thing, but getting frustrated with lack of options.

We had a similar conundrum, we wanted/need bump compliance, BUT, especially at higher speeds, it was absolutely crucial to keep the bottom of the car relatively stable, for aero reasons. To the point where cars, F1 cars and Indy cars both raced with no front suspension at ALL. Fill the shock shaft with solid packers and let the tires move. Good aero, but evil handling.

So, I cleared my mind of what is inside any conventional shock. I just took the whole thing out. I said, here's the wheel, here's the chassis, what do I want to happen in between them? I became an inventor. I discovered that didn't need to use the same mechanisms inside the shock. I could chose a mechanism to provide the characteristics I wanted. I invented some shocks. I put them on race cars. People told me, that won't work, nobody does it that way.

They did work. They won a lot of races and championships. They were not well understood. One, extremely well known, $1m paycheck indy engineer told me "your shocks don't like it when the wind blows the other direction". 2 sweeps of rebound later and we're on the pole.

What is my point? to do something new, something that's never been done before, I HAVE to stop thinking about it and analyzing it in a traditional; manner. I need to step outside the problem. The goals I wanted to accomplish were NEVER going to be achieved that way. Not with AS and LR.

That's why using those traditional measuring sticks doesn't work, You can say, "falling rate" doesn't work. Low volume air can doesn't work. That AS number doesn't work. BUT, if you add another force interaction not being used in those traditional systems, maybe some of these things DO work. Further, now if you look at the entire suspension system as an integral system, not a collection of acronyms, you can design characteristics for each part of the travel and each riding condition.

You cannot do this with conventional analysis, you have to open up new ways of understanding your goals and how to achieve them, regardless of how it was done before.

I will close with this anecdote: I was in Taiwan sitting at a table with 6 production engineers. I had been asked to design a super high end, all singing, all dancing product. Top of the line. I laid out my plan and my design. One by one, the engineers looked it over and each had a different reason why it could bot be done or would never work. I asked them why not. They replied, "because we've never done it that way". I looked at them , a bit incredulously and said, " so, let me understand this, we need to come up with an all new product, but we can't do anything new?"

think outside the box. Challenge yourself to be wrong. I did. And I built the bike. And I was still right.

 

[dump]

Where's the ignore button?!

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

The more he posts, the more he proves my obsevation.

Way to sell those bikes

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

..as far as the numbers go, you are only delaying the inevitable by a few weeks.

As soon as somebody gets one of your frames out of your sight, out comes the ruler / calipers.
The measurements get taken, and into Linkage they go.

Why not just cut the bull, and post them up.
Then you can have a MEANINGFUL conversation with teh regarding actual numbers.

All we are doing now is having a rainstorm by us all pissing into the wind.

OK, this is a great point I forgot to bring up. I am not looking for an engineering debate. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has at least one. I don't really care if other engineers, especially current bike designers, like my numbers. I prefer that they don't. I want them to be happy working on their ideas.

I wonder, which of these other bike designers, or wanna be bike designers will agree with me. Especially since, to a man, nobody agrees with each other. Why do I say this? Look at their bikes. Obviously, Hugh thinks he has the right answer. DW thinks he does. Santa Cruz think they do. Every engineer who is designing a suspension thinks they are the ones with the right answer. This makes everyone else WRONG.. As for the pundits that just want to argue and never designed anything in their life, I don't really care.

I want the layperson to understand what I'm doing and why. They don't give a shit about AS or LR, most don't even know what it means.

Thru all the crap, people are asking legitimate questions that I am answering, like, "why DO you want a falling rate and how does that work within your system" or even "it looked like it blew thru the travel in the video, what's up?" or "if it pedals like a hardtail, how is it over bumps when pedaling?" (very plush, thank you).

One great suggestion, post videos of it going fast. I will, working on that now. So while it is hard to filter al the crap out here, useful information is being exchanged. Just not the "actual numbers". Sorry, proprietary information. If you want to backward engineer it, knock yourself out, but don't blame me when your numbers don't match reality, I'm not doing your homework for you.

 

[Toshi]

if you add another force interaction not being used in those traditional systems

This is where the hang up lies, in invoking things that cannot be modeled by physics. (Does your bike use homeopathy as the secret sauce?)

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

That's where @kidwoo writes? @Tantrum Cycles the guy I tagged is probably one of the more respected reviewers here so if you really want to put your money where your mouth is.

who? what?

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Where's the ignore button?!

I think it's under your right finger on your mouse

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

This is where the hang up lies, in invoking things that cannot be modeled by physics. (Does your bike use homeopathy as the secret sauce?)

What I meant was, by looking at AS and LR numbers in a vacuum. It doesn't work. Sure, you can take two similar bikes, change the LR and or AS and get an immediate relative feel. From this perspective, relative to my bike, they are ALL similar. This is why people want to say, I've ridden a bike like that, it doesn't work, or , I've run those numbers, it doesn't work. Same thing. You're right, it DOESN'T work.

Funny thing about physics. Those "laws". They're just our best guess. That's why the equations keep growing...nature doesn't have to do what we calculate. Engineers get things wrong ALL THE TIME. We're probably the highest percentage of wrong in the known universe.

 

[Toshi]

It's a system whose movement is governed by rigid links and one spring/damper. It's basic mechanics, not the far-out reaches of theory.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I think Krob does a pretty good job : http://www.stuckinthespokes.com/2014/07/22/interbike-outerbike-demo-reviews/#sthash.umInFDXV.dpbs

He has more recent reviews, but I think they are posted in thread-format. He seems to have no huge biases or anything at stake, just wants to get out and ride the new bikes and see how they do. There's a level of honesty there that I simply don't find in magazine/site reviews.

Ok, jm, shirk, toshi, thanks for those references, I'll be in touch with them. With Eurobike and Interbike coming up, there will be plenty of people getting to swing a leg over.

there will be a proliferation of tests coming out in the months ahead. Maybe by some guys you trust, maybe by some guys you don't, but word will get around.

One thing I won't do, pay for an ad in order to get a test. Yes, I've been asked.

 

[bigwheel]

There's a lot of math debating here.

Why is it called "missing link"? it should be "extra link"

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

It's a system whose movement is governed by rigid links and one spring/damper. It's basic mechanics, not the far-out reaches of theory.

Well, on the one hand, you are correct. But, humor me for a sec. Let's suppose the bike does what I say. let's also assume that those things are desirable. What things?

1) steeper geo when climbing, slacker when DH
2) stiffer, shorter travel when climbing (but still plush on bumps), longer plusher travel when descending

Why didn't anybody else figure it out sooner? With all the money, engineers and decades of working on this problem, with all of the myriad of suspension design that have been introduced, why has nobody figured this out? It's just a bunch of links bolted together. The reason is the complexity. If you focus on LR, some other parameters are going to wrong way. If you focus on AS, other parameters are going the wrong way. If you focus on geometry change, other parameters are going the wrong way.

There was a hideous amount of calculation and iteration. I wanted to know things that the linkage program can't tell me. It was not a trivial task to get all of the parameters to work together in the way I wanted. If it was easy, It woulda been done before.

Soooo, if 1 and 2 above are true, can the pundits analysis also be true?

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

There's a lot of math debating here.

Why is it called "missing link"? it should be "extra link"

because that link, that is the one missing from other suspension designs. That link is the one that gives me the extra force manipulation to provide characteristics not possible without it.

And I didn't want to use my name, or some 3 letter high tech acronym

 

[Jm_]

There's a lot of math debating here.

Why is it called "missing link"? it should be "extra link"

All this time, you never knew you were missing the extra link.

 

[troy]

You should call it MTP (Missing The Point)

 

[kazlx]

I don't get the whole 'locking out suspension' thing. It's seriously the stupidest thing to me. My bike (even with a slack HA) climbs just fine. I leave it tuned for my weight and set up for descending and don't really have a complaint. IMO, FS bikes feel like shit with the suspension locked out. Same goes for travel adjust and some of the other bullshit buzzwords. Like Woo said, just make a bike that pedals reasonably and doesn't feel like poo on the downs. I'm happy with my *name redacted to protect the innocent* frame that I'm currently riding. Also, couldn't be happier with the support....

because that link, that is the one missing from other suspension designs. That link is the one that gives me the extra force manipulation to provide characteristics not possible without it.

And I didn't want to use my name, or some 3 letter high tech acronym

Definitely not missing from a Knolly, I think they covered all the links.

 

[Owennn]

So in lieu of any actual figures that weren't created in MS paint (referring to the single graph on http://www.tantrumcycles.com/technology.html), I've uploaded a linkage file to the public repository. Pivot locations won't be exact but they are close enough to draw accurate conclusions. No-one expects manufacturers to post exact pivot locations but at least believable data from a reputable sources prior to making grandiose claims. RC via Pinkbike doesn't count.

Very high anti-squat up to sag point & horrible leverage ratio even for an air shock.

 

[dump]

missing a link, throwing a tantrum

 

[Serial Midget]

Well I was bored and read everything. I will not attempt to disprove any claims or try to predict a designs performance without ever riding the bike but...

From a marketing standpoint it seems egotistical to hype a unproven product based almost solely on designers perception of his invention. The design may be the bomb or total shit - it's the market place that ultimately decides weather or not a new design will make the cut.

I personally don't think the climbing ability of my relatively recent trail bikes (Yeti SB6 & GT Sensor) is lacking. The Tantrum, if it performs as hyped, offers a solution to a problem a limited number of riders focus on.

 

[Lelandjt]

[QUOTE="kazlx, post: 4147680, member: 16690]Same goes for travel adjust and some of the other bullshit buzzwords. Like Woo said, just make a bike that pedals reasonably and doesn't feel like poo on the downs.[/QUOTE]
Kidwoo rides a travel adjust fork. I do too. A lower front end and steeper geometry (or at least countering a bike's natural tendency to get slacker when climbing) make for a more comfortable and faster climber. If the Tantrum does what he says I think you'd like it and find that it encourages more climbing and therefor more descending.

 

[kazlx]

Tried them. Really does nothing for me personally. YMMV.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

You should call it MTP (Missing The Point)

Right. Wait. Me or him?

Nice avatar

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I don't get the whole 'locking out suspension' thing. It's seriously the stupidest thing to me. My bike (even with a slack HA) climbs just fine. I leave it tuned for my weight and set up for descending and don't really have a complaint. IMO, FS bikes feel like shit with the suspension locked out. Same goes for travel adjust and some of the other bullshit buzzwords. Like Woo said, just make a bike that pedals reasonably and doesn't feel like poo on the downs. I'm happy with my *name redacted to protect the innocent* frame that I'm currently riding. Also, couldn't be happier with the support....



Definitely not missing from a Knolly, I think they covered all the links.

kazlz, I gues I need to stock saying "lock out" You're right, riding a bike with a locked out rear on anything but a smooth road is not good. But, If you're climbing up mt wilson so you can bomb it, I'll even wind down the fork.

But those are the exact reasons I designed the bike. I hate messing with that stuff while riding. I do not want any more levers on my bars. I want the bike to do what I want, intuitively.

I'm sure your bike climbs fine. They all do, really. I just wanted mine to climb better. In general, you do not need as much travel and you will benefit from steeper geometry. If ever there was something sure, that is it. You may not care, but it doesn't make it less true.

I'm just not satisfied with the status quo of current suspension design. I want it to do more.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

So in lieu of any actual figures that weren't created in MS paint (referring to the single graph on http://www.tantrumcycles.com/technology.html), I've uploaded a linkage file to the public repository. Pivot locations won't be exact but they are close enough to draw accurate conclusions. No-one expects manufacturers to post exact pivot locations but at least believable data from a reputable sources prior to making grandiose claims. RC via Pinkbike doesn't count.

Very high anti-squat up to sag point & horrible leverage ratio even for an air shock.

Hi Owen,

I have the same questions for you.

1) according to your numbers, can this bike go to full extension from 30% sag, and stay there as if locked out, on a climb, until it hits a bump, at which point it will instantly absorb and then go back the full extension for the remainder, until settling back down to sag as the climb levels out. Say, average 180 lb rider.

2) what will your horrible leverage ratio create? act like?

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Well I was bored and read everything. I will not attempt to disprove any claims or try to predict a designs performance without ever riding the bike but...

From a marketing standpoint it seems egotistical to hype a unproven product based almost solely on designers perception of his invention. The design may be the bomb or total shit - it's the market place that ultimately decides weather or not a new design will make the cut.

I personally don't think the climbing ability of my relatively recent trail bikes (Yeti SB6 & GT Sensor) is lacking. The Tantrum, if it performs as hyped, offers a solution to a problem a limited number of riders focus on.

Hi Al,

You didn't hear a peep out of me about this until it was proven. In real life. The designer that believes his own hype is destined to be suckered by it. i'm a racer. Races aren't won by hype. I made sure I had plenty of outside opinion before I ever turned it on the world. before that, i beat the living crap out of it all over the country and then did it again.

It's not hype. It's real. Otherwise I'd have my head down redesigning it.

Egotistical? Sure, a little bit. Tell you what, you do not spend the time, money and effort I have on my inventions if I didn't believe in myself a little bit. At this point in my life, my track record helps me, but when you go cut a check for 10k to the patent attorney and you think "what else can I buy with that", you better HOPE you have your shit together.

And yes, it's a gamble. Even IF the bike does exactly what I say, what if nobody cares? I won't even be a footnote in the mountain bike hall of shame. I'm betting otherwise, big time. This is me throwin down, pushing my chips onto the table. and I'm not bluffing.

 

[Westy]

You could have gone to graphic design school instead of writing long winded posts defending your design.

 

[troy]

@Tantrum Cycles please, could You upload a video where You put some tension to the pedals (simulating pedaling action) and hit the rear wheel AT THE SAME TIME? You can detach the rear shock for a while, just do not disconnect the missing link.

 

[Toshi]

I know from physics that W = F * d. F is the normal force exerted on my fat body. d would be the distance from sag point to topped out. Therefore each time I'd get on the pedals I'd put in W amount of work independent of propelling myself forward.

In other words, wouldn't the whole concept of jacking the BB up on pedal tension lead to a lot of extra effort expended?

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

missing a link, throwing a tantrum

@Tantrum Cycles please, could You upload a video where You put some tension to the pedals (simulating pedaling action) and hit the rear wheel AT THE SAME TIME? You can detach the rear shock for a while, just do not disconnect the missing link.

Yes. I am working on one now. Really cool. I can hold the bike up with no shock, just pedaling pressure. Then I give the rear wheel a slight kick to the rear, not up, but the wheel goes up.

I also put the front wheel against the wall, get on the bike with no shock and have it support my weight while jumping up and down on the pedals.

It'll take me a day or 2, I hope by monday.

I also have some vids of the shock while the bike is just ripping around, thru rock gardens and such. Just showing the suspension action. Originally, I didn't feel the need for this type of video, it's just a fairly normal suspension in those videos, nut it might help dispel fears of evil falling rates and wallow and such.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I know from physics that W = F * d. F is the normal force exerted on my fat body. d would be the distance from sag point to topped out. Therefore each time I'd get on the pedals I'd put in W amount of work independent of propelling myself forward.

In other words, wouldn't the whole concept of jacking the BB up on pedal tension lead to a lot of extra effort expended?

interesting thought. In the same vein, if we use ANY amount of anti-squat to counter act the natural tendency of the rear to compress, are we also using energy NOT to go forward?

 

[norbar]

What is my point? to do something new, something that's never been done before, I HAVE to stop thinking about it and analyzing it in a traditional; manner. I need to step outside the problem. The goals I wanted to accomplish were NEVER going to be achieved that way. Not with AS and LR.

How can you achieve a bike without a leverage ratio? Is it a hardtail?

 

[norbar]

who? what?

@kidwoo the guy who I tagged. How hard is it to click a link. People like his reviews, they respect his opinion. I doubt it's hard to understand. I just don't remember the site he writes on but people have probably posted about it here

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

@kidwoo the guy who I tagged. How hard is it to click a link. People like his reviews, they respect his opinion. I doubt it's hard to understand. I just don't remember the site he writes on but people have probably posted about it here

I have no idea he is a reviewer or has a website......thanks..kidwoo, hit me if you want to have some fun

I'm not from around here.

thanks..kidwoo, hit me if you want to have some fun

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

How can you achieve a bike without a leverage ratio? Is it a hardtail?

I'm sorry, I should clarify...I forgot my audience.....

I meant with only LR and AS as your available parameters to change. You can't do something new, without something new.

 

[kazlx]

I think Woo should ride it and report back in the name of the