[Da Peach]

Today is going to be a slow day, so...

Since getting back from Senegal, I've gotten to ride quite a bit (1 or 2 times/wk) on the trail/AM/Enderpo bike. The result being that my fitness really got much better, and my technical climbing improved a ton. But, honestly, my bike skills in general aren't really any better beyond the climbing.

I manage to hack my way around reasonably well on the DH bike, (it's miraculous what those things will let you get away with), but my finesse and consistency kinda sucks, and more riding on the little bike hasn't REALLY improved it all that much. Also, watching guys around here demolish rough trails on 4"-5" bikes (and/or hard tails) has made me feel shame.

I took a session the other day to get some more formal and structured input to help get my skills tuned up a bit. The main focus was cornering.

Gotta say, I came away from the session seeing what I was doing wrong, and even managed to do it "right" a few times. Now I just have to make what I've picked up reflexive. That, I fear, is not going to be easy.

We've got a follow up session in mid July. Hopefully I've improved by then.

Anyone else here done some skills training? How'd it go? What were the main points that really "stuck" and improved your riding?

 

[jonKranked]

only informal stuff. riding with people who are way faster than me. riding trials and bmx.

 

[Jim Mac]

Only informally as well. Racing BMX has helped me with cornering and pumping in general on the trail bike. My kid's getting BMX coaching 1X a week and I always try to listen in & see what I can steal.

 

[jonKranked]

riding small fidgety bikes (bmx and trials) really helps get your body in tune with making small changes to a bike, and how to manipulate it, and use your CoG to your advantage.

 

[Da Peach]

only informal stuff. riding with people who are way faster than me. riding trials and bmx.

I'm ALWAYS riding with people who are faster than me (big-ted is fast...). I think that's helped me hurl myself down the hill faster, but not so sure my technique has improved as a result.

My instructor was actually encouraging me to slow the eff down. My runs would start well, then just deteriorate as I started to gain speed and I'd get all ragged.

 

[jonKranked]

i have a DH buddy who is way fast and i just asked him to look at my form and give me advice.

 

[Nick]

Never done 'formal' training but frequently ask for tips on weak techniques (i do that skiing even moreso) and following better riders.

Shoot, I got a couple tips from Stoney and Full Trucker on cornering on my DH bike and immediately saw positive results. Difference? they both used to race.

Things that 'stuck' go way back to driving my car on track days. In theory, weight transfer when braking and fast lines through turns are the same on the bike. Brake early, learn how much brake is REALLY necessary, use the WHOLE line (trail) exit and pedal pedal pedal.

 

[StiHacka]

Riding with better people helped me a lot. I try to figure out what they do differently, then I try to mimic and see if it has any effects, and usually it does. The two clues I am getting told most often are: off the brakes, hit that ****.

I need a good DH tutor because I suck. I plan to pay for a private lesson at Highland later this summer.

 

[jimmydean]

Pussy.

 

[jonKranked]

I plan to pay for a private lesson at Highland later this summer.

i skimmed this and read "I plan to pay for a private lesson from the highlander"

 

[CBJ]

Barely riding trails once a week its really difficult to do anything consistent. Plus new bike and new tires I am still working on setup of the bike too on top of that. I don't really worry too much as I just out there to have fun.

 

[wiscodh]

did a session last season with simon lawton. It helped. I should have done a follow up session later in the year.

my footwork was terrible which lead to ****ty cornering. He fixed that, well i still sometimes revert to it, but rarely now. My speed really picked up after that.

 

[StiHacka]

i skimmed this and read "I plan to pay for a private lesson from the highlander"

Could be as long as I get to keep my head.

 

[big-ted]

Today is going to be a slow day, so...

Since getting back from Senegal, I've gotten to ride quite a bit (1 or 2 times/wk) on the trail/AM/Enderpo bike. The result being that my fitness really got much better, and my technical climbing improved a ton. But, honestly, my bike skills in general aren't really any better beyond the climbing.

I manage to hack my way around reasonably well on the DH bike, (it's miraculous what those things will let you get away with), but my finesse and consistency kinda sucks, and more riding on the little bike hasn't REALLY improved it all that much.

Are you kidding me? You've gotten way quicker all round. I'm sure you've picked up some bad habits, but haven't we all?

/circle jerk

 

[canadmos]

Ride more.

 

[mandown]

I did Andrew Shandro's Summer Gravity Camp the first year it was offered at Whistler; got to spend a week riding with some heavy hitters. I ended up going back for a few years. I had nothing like it to ride in Los Angeles, so I couldn't keep my skills up, but I did learn a few things.

Katrina Strand taught me the bellybutton trick (not as fun as it sounds). She said to imagine an eyeball in your bellybutton, and that wherever it looks is where you will go. It certainly helped with body position in the turns.

I also learned about the power of the rolling wheel. Wheels are how you roll, stop, and turn; but you can't combo those things certain ways. You will be amazed at what the wheel will carry you over if you just let it roll. I realized the brakes often do more harm than good.

 

[Da Peach]

Are you kidding me? You've gotten way quicker all round. I'm sure you've picked up some bad habits, but haven't we all?

/circle jerk

I think that a bigger "little" bike has helped a fair amount too.. SB66s are pretty good, no?

RFX -> SB66c has made for a quicker big-ted, wouldntyasay?

 

[Da Peach]

I did Andrew Shandro's Summer Gravity Camp the first year it was offered at Whistler; got to spend a week riding with some heavy hitters. I ended up going back for a few years. I had nothing like it to ride in Los Angeles, so I couldn't keep my skills up, but I did learn a few things.

Katrina Strand taught me the bellybutton trick (not as fun as it sounds). She said to imagine an eyeball in your bellybutton, and that wherever it looks is where you will go. It certainly helped with body position in the turns.

Yeah, DB at Endless Biking used the "third eye" tip too. It works.

I'm too quick to drop my outside foot. Gotta work on keeping my pedals level and just dip as needed.

 

[Da Peach]

did a session last season with simon lawton. It helped. I should have done a follow up session later in the year.

my footwork was terrible which lead to ****ty cornering. He fixed that, well i still sometimes revert to it, but rarely now. My speed really picked up after that.

I've got the fluidride video with Lars as demo boy on the MKIII. Lots of tips to be sure, but one on one training really drives the points home more effectively (obviously)

 

[stoney]

Shoot, I got a couple tips from Stoney and Full Trucker on cornering on my DH bike and immediately saw positive results. Difference? they both used to race.

Chin up and look where you want to go. It forces more weight over the front wheel which plants better for cornering. This should feel ackward at first. Over do it to get the feel initially. It will likely slow you down while you get used to the feel.

Get confortable letting the back end slide. It's more of a SoCal/dry terrain skill, but it allows you push hard into an even slightly burmed, right-angle corner.

Be prepared to counter-steer on drifty corners. Think about how a rally car turns. Once you start sliding (see above), slight counter-steer will keep the bike centered underneath you.

Turn the bike underneath you. Consider your head the fixed point and let your body and bike move underneath you. For a packed burm (like the pic you posted a few days ago), lean into that how you were, and pedal your ass off as soon as you start to uncompress. On sliding turns, lean the bike underneath you, but keep your weight centered underneath the bike.

Look outside of the 'normal' line. Often the fast line is the hard line, so it doesn't get worn in well.

Jumping is normally faster on a rougher course. Keep it in the air (low and fast) if you can and pedal whenever you can. Learn to ride regular and goofy. It will provide for taking half pedal strokes, which is more power to the ground.

Take straight lines when you can.

Brake in straight lines. The second you start turning you should no longer be on the brakes. If you are, you came in too hot.

Slow down while you work on individual skills. Sliding has a certain minimum speed that you will be moving though.

That's everything I can think of off hand.

edit: One more - learn how to suck up a lip. IF you are coming in hot and the lip will send you too far, suck up the lip and skim the ground. If you can on smaller lips, bunnyhop the lip and pump the back side for more speed.

 

[jimmydean]

I didn't learn how to turn until I started riding sport bikes. I learned all I needed about body position, suspension loading, and counter steer after learning to ride my R1.

When I got back on the big bike, I was so much faster in the turns it was insane.

 

[pnj]

I ride with people that are better than me but they are usually at the bottom of the hill WAY before me so I never really see them...

Get a bmx/24/full rigid bike. Ride pumptracks/skateparks on it.

 

[kidwoo]

Running a long mental list of lee McCormack is annoying. It makes bike riding not fun IMO.

So here's whatcha do: Just get a **** ton of descents in. On the same trails over and over again. The bike doesn't matter, the method doesn't matter, just treat life like Glengarry Glenn Ross: "always be descending". The lifts at whistler, your favorite Seymour or cypress shuttle buddies, or just pedal up things all the time.

But riding the same trails over and over again puts you in a very comfortable situation where you're never surprised or caught off guard. In this mindset you can start to ride the trail(s) very differently than if you only see them a few times a year. You'll get faster in one section and realize you can use that momentum differently for what comes after, be it gapping some rocks, popping off a root to hit a downslope somewhere else.....whatever. But start to ride the trails you know really really well, differently. This gets you comfortable doing new things but in a familiar environment. Get to the point where a trail isn't a reaction to what comes next but series of planned moves, to the point where those moves are second nature.

Then you've got a grown skillset honed somewhere you know very well that you then carry with you on new trails you don't know so well. You've got the idea of gapping entire rock gardens or root balls, yanking out of turns on your back wheel without braking when you're going too fast for the turn radius, manualing through dips to pump speed........it's all a better honed skill set that you're not trying to remember all half assed on trails you keep seeing fresh.

That's my take anyway. You already know how to ride. It's just easier to ride differently on trails you know at first. Picturing other organs attached where they don't belong is golfer shlt.

The 'elbows out' (for example) thing cracks me up. That's a RESULT of going fast, not a cause of it. Try things your own way and then adjust as needed. But yeah following other people is ALWAYS informative.....faster or slower.

 

[Da Peach]

[video]http://www.pinkbike.com/video/256736/[/video]

Gonna be seeing a lot of this trail in the near future, methinks. The non-brit is the coach I'm using. So far so good.

That and the new Expresso. Laps 'n laps 'n laps.

 

[Jeremy R]

I can see if my daughter will help you with your form. She should be cheaper than those other coaches as she gets paid in Smarties or Reese Cups.

 

[Da Peach]

I like the asymmetrical grip positioning. So pro!

 

[Jeremy R]

I like the asymmetrical grip positioning. So pro!

Ha, she grabs the bars in a different place every time she rides. Drives me to

 

[kidwoo]

Ha, she grabs the bars in a different place every time she rides. Drives me to

There was a study a while back that showed that inconsistent hand position was the number one indicator of future alcoholic sorority girl with poor grades status.

 

[wiscodh]

There was a study a while back that showed that inconsistent hand position was the number one indicator of future alcoholic sorority girl with poor grades status.

coulda just said soccer mom.

 

[kidwoo]

No sting.

He hangs out with butch. He deserves sting.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Kidwoo speaks da truth. I love cornering and am pretty quick at it. However, I have no natural athletic ability, none. I can't walk in a straight line and constantly bump into things, but I can rail the snot out of corners. And it's all because of years of practice.

In addition to doing repeated runs on familiar trails, try sessioning a section. I don't race anymore, but still like to keep my skills up. So I will find a suitable corner and practice it several times. A habit I picked up from practicing for DH racing.

I've never heard of the belly button eyeball or laser beam thing before, but have been aware of how much a role your hips play in bike handling. The best way IMO to learn this is to watch any of Danny Harts race runs from a few years ago around the time when he won the world championship. Back then his style of popping his hips is extremely exaggerated making it real easy to study his movements. Now he's a lot more subtle with it, and entirely to fast to see what he's doing.

And a far as the "gotta keep your feet on the pedals and level" thing, it's horse sh!t. If you feel the need to put a foot down and can get clipped back in in a hurry, then do it. Nico Vouilloz drops his foot and can still out corner the competition.

 

[Da Peach]

I was dropping feet all the time.

Whatever works...

Interesting to hear different perspectives. This is all just for fun. I like being on the steep part of the learning curve in sports. Once I get "good", or plateau, I lose interest.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

The new school geometry bikes with the slack head angle and low bottom bracket really encourage aggressive cornering. I have actually started to wear out the side knobs of my tires way faster then previous bikes.


Another fun thing to do is to find the breaking point of your tires. That is, the point at which you start to slide in a corner. Just find a mellow corner and try to lean over as far as you can, trying to get the bike to break traction. The idea here is to make yourself almost crash. Just don't do this with other riders behind you.

And if all else fails, take a couple of bong hits and stop thinking when you ride.

 

[JohnE]

Riding with fast guys is not necessarily good for technique or form. I know, as I have been following them my whole bike life. Often times you only reinforce the bad habits that you already own. I have it on my bucket list to take a lesson, attend a skills camp or day when I return Stateside...but not a DH thing...just an XC/AM kind of joint...I obey the law of gravity...

 

[kidwoo]

Riding with fast guys is not necessarily good for technique or form.

Maybe not but you can see very quickly what someone else sees (or misses) in terms of line choice. It is absolutely educational, one way or the other. You just have to know what to filter and what to learn from.

The feet level thing at all times is also kind of stupid. Dropping an outside foot in a corner lowers your center of gravity (a lot). Even more so if you take your inside foot off and crouch over your dropped outside foot. When you know you're going to start sliding, it makes it immensely more stable. I'll straight up sit down and put my inside leg against my headtube sometimes just so that I can smack the crap out of a rut without hitting brakes. It's fun as hell and way faster than level feet, controlled braking before the turn.

It's just another tool in the box. Every turn is different. If you can maintain traction and rail a turn with your feet level, then yeah do it. If not, there's a quick way to get the equivalent of a two inch drop in BB height

 

[Toshi]

I didn't learn how to turn until I started riding sport bikes. I learned all I needed about body position, suspension loading, and counter steer after learning to ride my R1.

This. Well, I can't say that I've translated it to the mountain bike, but I learned all about cornering through motorcycling, specifically a Lee Parks ridercourse.

 

[Da Peach]

The feet level thing at all times is also kind of stupid. Dropping an outside foot in a corner lowers your center of gravity (a lot). Even more so if you take your inside foot off and crouch over your dropped outside foot. When you know you're going to start sliding, it makes it immensely more stable. I'll straight up sit down and put my inside leg against my headtube sometimes just so that I can smack the crap out of a rut without hitting brakes. It's fun as hell and way faster than level feet, controlled braking before the turn.

It's just another tool in the box. Every turn is different. If you can maintain traction and rail a turn with your feet level, then yeah do it. If not, there's a quick way to get the equivalent of a two inch drop in BB height

this was the lesson, the coach was by no means saying it was bad. just that I was ALWAYS dropping my foot when trying to corner, more than was necessary, and at the expense of balance front to back.

 

[Da Peach]

Riding with fast guys is not necessarily good for technique or form. I know, as I have been following them my whole bike life. Often times you only reinforce the bad habits that you already own. I have it on my bucket list to take a lesson, attend a skills camp or day when I return Stateside...but not a DH thing...just an XC/AM kind of joint...I obey the law of gravity...

yeah, this course is on little bikes. just like the vid I posted. I think we'd likely be learning (or unlearning) similar problems.

I've done lots of riding, but have been reinforcing lots of bad habits.

 

[kidwoo]

this was the lesson, the coach was by no means saying it was bad. just that I was ALWAYS dropping my foot when trying to corner, more than was necessary, and at the expense of balance front to back.

Well stop doing that.

The whole feet flat thing is just to keep you in a neutral position, from which several different actions are possible. That's all it is. It's like the weaver stance.

But it's also really important to know when you benefit from being in the opposite of a neutral position: full on committed to the one particular task you're engaged in at the time. That's good too.

I've known some people that throw a foot out on every single corner. How does that start? Are you trying to get low, or are you really just putting it there for slide protection? If you're scared of literally every single turn, something else is going on.

 

[jimmydean]

I've known some people that throw a foot out on every single corner. How does that start? Are you trying to get low, or are you really just putting it there for slide protection? If you're scared of literally every single turn, something else is going on.

Dirt bike background most likely, I used to do that until I started riding sportbikes.