Road bike knee pain

Heidi · Jul 31, 2006

Your saddle height "seems good"? I'd get a better bike fit done to make sure the height, tilt, for/aft are all right.

OGRipper · Jul 31, 2006

Saddle height and fore-aft position could be the cause, but if the pain is only on the sides it sounds more like a foot position issue, like wrong Q-factor or wrong cleat angle.

Have you been riding this bike set up this way for a long time without pain or is it a new bike? If it's not new, any recent changes to your position? New shoes?

Wumpus · Jul 31, 2006

fore/aft -- means moving your saddle more to the front or rear.

Q: What is this Q-factor thing?
A: Q-factor is a commonly used term which refers to the distance between the pedals.

Q: How do you figure out what your Q-factor is?
A: This distance can be easily measured by removing one crank arm and turning it around so both crank arms point in the same direction, and then measuring the distance between the outside of the crank arms. This measurement is normally in millimeters. A less accurate, but tool-less method to measure the Q-factor is to measure from the outside of one crank arm to the outside of the seat or boom tube, do the same for the other crank arm, and then add these measurements to the width of the seat or boom tube.

Q: Why do I care about Q-factor?
A: Usually because you are trying to minimize it in order to make the nose of a fairing smaller, sometimes to optimize it to better match it to your hip width in order to minimize a hip, knee, or ankle pain situation.

Why are you pedaling with your heels down? Sounds kind of unnatural.

Alfred · Jul 31, 2006

Are you spinning? When I mash a bunch, it kills me.

Wumpus · Jul 31, 2006

Alfred said:
Are you spinning? When I mash a bunch, it kills me.

That usually kills my back, but I did notice the other day having to pedal into a 20mph headwind that my knee was hurting.

reflux · Jul 31, 2006

If bike fit doesn't work, get thee to a doctor. A friend of mine had similar pain but was dead set against going to the doctor. After much peer pressure, he finally went. The doctor diagnosed a small problem with his patellar (sp?) tendon (at least that's what I think it was), gave him a small brace of some sort, and fixed said knee problem.

Wumpus · Jul 31, 2006

Proper foot angles at various points of your pedal stroke.
(from a side view)

According to these folks --> http://www.tredhed.com/pedaling_spinning.cfm

arboc! · Jul 31, 2006

you would be surprized at what a professional fitting can do for you.

Pau11y · Jul 31, 2006

I also use Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements. I used to ski moguls and it's a knee killing sport. It's helped me a lot. You can get a huge bottle of it thru VitamineShoppe.com for under $30.00. I only take one a day, unlike their recommendation of 3 times a day...

Wumpus · Aug 1, 2006

bluebug32 said:
I have a tendancy to get really stiff and sore shoulders and pain in my neck, so I wasn't surprised when I started riding my road bike frequently and the pain started up no matter how much I changed positions and tried to relax. I'm not sure what to do because I like to have a bike to ride when I can't get to a trail and also have something to throw on the trainer during the winter.

I have no idea how you ride but have you tried slowing down. If you are constantly mashing, you are most likely pulling on the bars. Drop to an easier gear and spin a little higher cadence.

I also get really tense on busy roads, and I find I pound out the pace trying to get to the quieter roads.

Wumpus · Aug 1, 2006

bluebug32 said:
Just curious, do you think a cross bike would make any substantial difference?

I wouldn't think it would help. My main reason for riding a cross bike is that I can run wider tires and lower presure -- currently 37cc @ 80-90 psi. I like to go out and find the dirt roads.

Maybe try and take a few easy days*(week) and see if things improve.

*That would be something like 60% mhr or less.

particle bored · Aug 1, 2006

Wumpus said:
Proper foot angles at various points of your pedal stroke.
(from a side view)

According to these folks --> http://www.tredhed.com/pedaling_spinning.cfm

"Proper" is a bit pedantic and unrealistic.

For example, when going up steep inclines and turning low RPM / cadence, heel-down is quite common.

And what is "proper" is fairly individual.

But that graphic is pretty good for a general baseline frame of reference, to fix those "seriously out of whack" pedaling styles.

As one's cadence increases, the amount of heel-up and heel-down tends to diminish. A flatter foot allows for a faster spin.

******************

Q-factor issues are very rare in men, as most men have relatively narrow hips and not a lot of divergence among adult males. The big issue in Q-factor is women with broad pelvic basins and wide hips trying to use a Q-factor designed for an adult male. In that case, the woman must ride with her feet spaced side-to-side much narrower than her hips would prefer.

I'm not too familiar with men having knee pain from a bad Q-factor. Spindle length changes are more commonly done for chainline, not for knee pain.

******************

For knee pain diagnosis, here's what I'd examine --

1) Saddle fore/aft... this affects the angle between your hip joint and the bottom bracket. Each rider performs best and least painfully at an individual position. Some riders are best when they are a bit more behind the BB, while others are best when they are closest to straight above the BB.

2) Saddle height... this affects the amount of flexion in your knee during the pedal stroke. Too high and you risk hyperextension. Too low and you stress the patellar tendon too much. Knee pain can come from a too-low saddle, but not too often from a too-high saddle. Usually when it's too high, your hips rock too severely to keep riding that way.

3) Foot angle relative to the pedal... heel out versus heel in... Again every person has an optimal here, it depends on your anatomy. People who are pigeon-toed (who walk and stand with a "toe-in" position) are likely to be more comfortable with a relatively "heel-out" position. Duck-footed people (who walk and stand with a "toe-out" position) are likely to be more comfortable with a "heel-in" position. Note that too much "heel-in" will result in your heels clipping the chainstays as you go through the pedal circle.

4) Trying to push too big a gear for your power and fitness level.

*************************

In my humble opinion, for knee pain riding a CX ("cross") bike will not be a relief. This is either a fit issue, or a "too big a gear" issue, or maybe both. It's not about CX versus pure roadie.

particle bored · Aug 1, 2006

bluebug32 said:
I'm at odds with my road bike right now. I've had the bike shop look at my postiting and put on a more upright stem. I have a tendancy to get really stiff and sore shoulders and pain in my neck, so I wasn't surprised when I started riding my road bike frequently and the pain started up no matter how much I changed positions and tried to relax. I'm not sure what to do because I like to have a bike to ride when I can't get to a trail and also have something to throw on the trainer during the winter.

Absent serious bike fit issues, shoulder pain and neck pain can be from riding a road bike in an aerodynamic "flat back" position and trying to crane your head upward to see far down the road ahead of you. The more time you put in on a road bike the less painful this becomes. Or you can skip the hours in the saddle, the muscle stretching, etc., and simply get a more upright stem to make your back less flat!

Also, if you ride with a lot of tension in your shoulders and neck you can get stiffness there. When I'm not relaxed on my roadie or MTB, I am most tense in the shoulders. I get really sore at the trapezius and neck muscle areas when I'm that tense. And it gets worse when the rides are long, the terrain is rough, and I'm tense!

particle bored · Aug 1, 2006

bluebug32 said:
Thanks for your observations, PB. I'm a woman (just to clear up the Q-factor differences). I'll try moving my saddle fore/aft. I have a pretty high stem right now. I think the highest possible actually. It's just not a comfortable position to be in and I've been working on it for about a year.

You're welcome!

Sorry I assumed you were a man. That definitely clears up the Q-Factor discussion.

My understanding of the potential knee pain from women whose Q-Factor measurement needs to be wider is that they get either medial or lateral collateral ligament pain, which would be pretty well localized on the sides of the knee.

I've had many knee issues in my life, and have experienced various types of knee pain related to road riding and MTB riding. Here's what I've learned.

Patellar tendon pain -- front of the knee -- generally indicates saddle too low, saddle too far rearward, or a "mashing" technique in too big a gear. Or, as an anatomic malady, chondromalacia or patellar tendonitis.

Hamstring insertion pain -- rear of the knee -- generally indicates too much time with a heel-low pedaling position emphasizing too much hamstring engagement, while in too big a gear.

indieboy · Aug 1, 2006

bluebug32 said:
Thanks for your observations, PB. I'm a woman (just to clear up the Q-factor differences). I'll try moving my saddle fore/aft. I have a pretty high stem right now. I think the highest possible actually. It's just not a comfortable position to be in and I've been working on it for about a year.

i'd be willing to bet you aren't giving your body a chance to settle into whatever position changes you're setting up.

i'd recommend visiting a local fit expert (not some jerkoff shop rat). have him go through the problems your having and let him do his job. KEEP that position for quite some time and see what happens. the thing is your body isn't used to whatever position you keep changing it to. think about it for a minute. anytime you change your position, whether it's a cm this way, cm that way, you force your body to use the muscle groups slightly different. so you're going to experience new/different pains until your body settles into the position a bit.

hope that helps a little.

HOOWAH · Aug 7, 2006

find a physical therapy lab that does athletic performance set ups for bikes. in many instances, if you complain of limiting pain, your insurance company (if you have insurance) will pony up for a relatively inexpense preventative visit. if you're unsure, call the PT lab first and ask them the best way to confront your insurance company.

they should get you on a trainer with your bike, take some pictures from side, front, and back. they'll adjust your bike to fit you and get you in the proper position, and also assess any shortcomings your body has and give you corrective exercises and stretches.

i went through this on friday for IT band related knee pain (on the outside of the knee).

if you have a multi thousand dollar bike the least you can do is spend the $100 to make sure if fits right.

T

Road bike knee pain

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