[$tinkle]

I know we just touched on this recently, but seeing how today is the 31st anniversary of Roe v Wade, i want to seek defenses/apologies/opinions on those who favor abortion.

• what effects, if any, have you noticed or had shared with you with respect to post-abortion trauma (both physical & psychological)?
• do you feel more comfortable sharing your abortion stance, or your stance on religion/spirituality?
• do you believe a human entity has a soul before birth?

please elaborate, if comfortable. These aren't set-up questions, i just want to understand that which i don't embrace.

 

[jdcamb]

Originally posted by $tinkle
I know we just touched on this recently, but seeing how today is the 31st anniversary of Roe v Wade, i want to seek defenses/apologies/opinions on those who favor abortion.

• what effects, if any, have you noticed or had shared with you with respect to post-abortion trauma (both physical & psychological)?
• do you feel more comfortable sharing your abortion stance, or your stance on religion/spirituality?
• do you believe a human entity has a soul before birth?

please elaborate, if comfortable. These aren't set-up questions, i just want to understand that which i don't embrace.

I had a girlfriend who had a abortion and she had serious guilt afterwards. That guilt led her to become very depressed throwing both of our lives into a tailspin. She had the abortion without my knowledge based on the question she posed to me whether I wanted kids or not. Not knowing she was pregnant with my child I said no. When I found out about it (from her sister) I was pissed and handled the situation completely wrong and imaturely and made a bad situation even worse. After she felt better we actually tried to have a child and couldn't. This led to our breakup. After her abortion she had problems with her Uteris that may have been caused by her abortion depending on which Doctor you talked to (which was many).

I feel comfortable saying I am against the idea of Abortion unless in cases of Rape or Incest in which case the victim has the right to decide for themselves what is the right thing to do. I do believe that a Women is the only one who can decide what she should do with her body and that no male has any right to determine what she should or should not do. Basically as a man I only can have a opinion about Abortion and shouldn't decide for any women what is right or wrong for them (this includes the Supreme Court). That is Gods work and I have no right to judge anyone based on the decisions they make concerning their bodies. However wrong I think it is.

I believe that shortly after the fetus is formed it is a human entity and thus has a soul......jdcamb

 

[$tinkle]

Putting aside the arguments which lead to abortion, one thing that all must agree to is to remove the politics from abortion and address grief counseling.

However, it seems the pro-life side is postured to stand in judgment ("you murderer!"), and the pro-abortion side is postured to dismiss the grief ("it wasn't a baby anyway").

In all cultures, the dead are bemoaned. What is an appropriate range of consideration for the woman afterward? Absent from the list should be judgment or monday-morning quarterbacking. Also, she should be validated.

What inroads have been made in the name of compassionate conservatism (which can be desperately needed)? Not to suggest there aren't any, i just have seen any proffered up.

JD, you hit on something very real: your reaction to having your opportunity taken away without your consent. This is a reasonable and valid response, & i bet i would have felt very much the same. How much consideration should be given to the former potential father? Grief, anger and betrayal can't be dismissed like blowing your nose.

Has anyone here (or anyone known by you) ever obtained an abortion b/c it was viewed as the best (or only) choice? Follow-up: what was the convincing argument?

Conversely, has anyone here (or anyone known by you) ever sought to obtain an abortion, but decided instead to carry the baby to term? Follow-up: what was the convincing argument?

Apologies if any terms were polarizing - i'm seeking to be as neutral as possible (again, to understand that which i don't embrace)

 

[laura]

Originally posted by $tinkle
I know we just touched on this recently, but seeing how today is the 31st anniversary of Roe v Wade, i want to seek defenses/apologies/opinions on those who favor abortion.

• what effects, if any, have you noticed or had shared with you with respect to post-abortion trauma (both physical & psychological)?
• do you feel more comfortable sharing your abortion stance, or your stance on religion/spirituality?
• do you believe a human entity has a soul before birth?

please elaborate, if comfortable. These aren't set-up questions, i just want to understand that which i don't embrace.

i have had too many friends in high school and shortly there after who have abortions. one of my friends was very torn up over the abortion. she was only 16. her and the fatehr made the decision to go through wiht it and she was never the same again. however, it did not lead to her use of birth control and she got pregnant again a few years later and lost the baby again.(this time not thru abortion) shortly after she became addicted to heroin and was an addict for 2 years at least. she could be sober now, but we lost touch.

i had another friend in high school who got an abortion with the consent of the father and she got really messed up too. her and the father broke up after the abortion and she tried to kill herself. she got hooked on coke and meth. she turned out ok, as in not a drug addict. she is in school and supporting herself.

now, i always wondered, was it better for these two girls to have abortions? would they have been drug addicts even if they had the babies? was it the abortion that turned them into addicts? both of them were into drugs heavily before they got preganat. i dont think anything would have changed them.


i feel just as comfortable sharing my views on abortion as i do on religion. i think that there should always be a choice. i think that there are too many unwanted children on this earth. i dont think i could ever have an abortion. that being said, i dont believe in god, and i dont think that we have souls that live on forever or that are with us before we are born.

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by laura
that being said, i dont believe in god, and i dont think that we have souls that live on forever or that are with us before we are born.

I'm hijacking.

This statement interests me. Do you believe that we have souls?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Im pro-death.

Babies are worthless vile creatures anyway. I think you should get a 3-month grace period after theyre born to decide if you really want it.

 

[laura]

Originally posted by DRB
I'm hijacking.

This statement interests me. Do you believe that we have souls?

no. i dont believe in ghosts, souls ect. i think we have highly evolved brains.

 

[ohio]

I was somewhat friends with a girl who had more than one during highschool (only 2 as far as I know, but rumors were there were more). It didn't seem to affect her adversely, though I question how balanced she could have been, to be that careless after the first one. I never talked about it with her, but I'm not certain if she was on the pill or not. Her father was a doctor and her family quite liberal, so she had access to the pill.

The restaurant I once waited tables at, all the waitresses AND the bartender had had abortions with the exception of another highschool friend of mine who had decided to have the baby at 17. She was fairly religious, and had actually concieved the baby still a virgin (yes, I am serious... it is possible if things are, uh, messy). Her boyfriend at the time (the son of a pastor) dumped her immediately, and she was raising the boy with help from her family, and eventually her new boyfriend (who was a good fella). IMO, she was the happiest of the women at the restaurant and had the brightest future... but that would have been the case if you removed pregnancies from the situation too. So who knows?

I'm lucky enough to have not had any MAJOR scares in my own relationships. I've also never been serious enough in any of my relationships that a pregnancy would have convinced me to marry or stay with a girl. I probably would have done my best to convince her to have an abortion, but certainly not demanded it.

My friend who has had a scare, now talks to girlfriends up front about this before they ever sleep together. He won't sleep with a girl unless he knows she would be willing to have an abortion in the case of a broken condom or failed pill. Great way to kill the mood, but certainly more responsible than most.

Many MANY people I know have had to use the morning-after pill. I'm not sure about RU-486...

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by jdcamb
I had a girlfriend who had a abortion and she had serious guilt afterwards. That guilt led her to become very depressed throwing both of our lives into a tailspin. She had the abortion without my knowledge based on the question she posed to me whether I wanted kids or not. Not knowing she was pregnant with my child I said no. When I found out about it (from her sister) I was pissed and handled the situation completely wrong and imaturely and made a bad situation even worse. After she felt better we actually tried to have a child and couldn't. This led to our breakup. After her abortion she had problems with her Uteris that may have been caused by her abortion depending on which Doctor you talked to (which was many).

I feel comfortable saying I am against the idea of Abortion unless in cases of Rape or Incest in which case the victim has the right to decide for themselves what is the right thing to do. I do believe that a Women is the only one who can decide what she should do with her body and that no male has any right to determine what she should or should not do. Basically as a man I only can have a opinion about Abortion and shouldn't decide for any women what is right or wrong for them (this includes the Supreme Court). That is Gods work and I have no right to judge anyone based on the decisions they make concerning their bodies. However wrong I think it is.

I believe that shortly after the fetus is formed it is a human entity and thus has a soul......jdcamb

Yep, I agree with you entirely...except maybe the God part.

 

[CRUM]

Originally posted by $tinkle
Has anyone here (or anyone known by you) ever obtained an abortion b/c it was viewed as the best (or only) choice? Follow-up: what was the convincing argument?

Conversely, has anyone here (or anyone known by you) ever sought to obtain an abortion, but decided instead to carry the baby to term? Follow-up: what was the convincing argument?

Apologies if any terms were polarizing - i'm seeking to be as neutral as possible (again, to understand that which i don't embrace)

Back in the 70's, I was a kind of "go to guy" when one of my female college friends became pregnant. This was before I had come up with a definitive opinion on Abortion. My girlfriend got pregnant when we were freshmen. I went with her to family planning and sat with her through the screening, informational meetings, and counseling. After a week or so of agonizing, she decided to abort. Her reasoning was a combination of of jumbled excuses that ultimately made me realize she was definitely not ready to be a mom. I kept my feelings to myself and supported her decision. I realized I was not ready to be a dad. But I was ready to make the attempt. I went with her to the clinic and stayed with her afterword. I can't say that her decision broke us up, but it certainly did not help. I was never sure why I ended up as a guide through the process except for the fact that I had already been through it and had a reputation for keeping my opinion to myself and my mouth shut. I told no one what I was doing.

Anyway, over the next 2 years, I helped at least 6 women go through the process of deciding to abort or not. 2 chose to keep their babies. The 2 who decided to give birth indicated that to them, aborting felt like murder. They just couldn't do it. The other 4 agonized but still went through with the abortions. Their reasons went from "I can't have a baby now, I have to finish College", to " My parents would kill me". Oddly, religious convictions had no real bearing. But, this was the 70's.

I stopped helping after my junior year. I just couldn't do it anymore. I realized that to use abortion as a form of birth control really stuck in my craw. I also realized that while I felt (and still do), the decision to abort is ultimately the woman's choice, I did not have to be part of the process.

This is not a black and white issue to me. There are compelling arguments on both sides. So, all I can say is I am against abortion, but will defend a woman's right to choose. If that is sitting on the fence, so be it. And to make it illegal will not make it go away. It will just make it illegal.

An afterword - Of the 2 women who decided to go full term, they both dropped out of college. One stayed in the area, had her child, decided she was gay, raised the child with a gay partner, and the last I heard from her, her daughter had married and was having a normal life. The other girl moved away and I never heard from her again.

Of the others, my ex-girlfriend got married and had 2 children. That's all I know about her. Of the others, I lost touch with them soon after leaving the area.

But of all the above stories of aborting or not, the one that actually hit me the hardest was what happened to my best friend from that period. In 1980, he married a woman with a congenital heart condition. She had been told to not get pregnant, it would probably kill her. She paid no attention and got pregnant and died in child birth. Her husband (my friend) pleaded with her to abort. He did not know she had stopped taking her birth control pills. But she told him she felt it was her decison to get pregnant and she thought she could beat the odds. And besides, chasing the adoption route had been frustrating to say the least. She wanted to be a mom. She got her wish, but died in the process. I still don't know how to feel about this one. The son born was healthy and last I heard was thinking of going to med school.

On the other side, my wife's mother had a similar condition. She was told the same thing, but endured 3 pregnancies and raised 3 children. She lived into her early 80's.

And then there is this - My mother had been married to a Naval officer in the late 30's. She had 2 boys. Her husband died during WWll. In the early 50's, she met my father and became pregnant. They married and 7 months later I was born. As a kid, this information was not made available to me. I only found out when I did some figuring after seeing their marriage certificate when my dad died. All of a sudden, the life I had as a child came into sharper perspective. As a kid, I never felt connected to anyone in the family. My Dad always seemed distant. My Mom definitely favored my half brothers, and my half brothers, well, let's just say, we never connected. And of the out lying relatives, my Mom's side treated me with disdain. I always felt like I was the odd man out. Seeing the marriage certificate brought some closure for me. I then understood that I was a live reminder of a sexual encounter that would probably not have ended in marriage, had she not become pregnant.

What does this mean? Well, I am here, so I am grateful she did not abort. But having mostly negative memories of my youth as far as family goes eats at me. While I am not angry anymore, I still wonder if I had not happened, would their lives have been happier? Somehow, I still blame myself for the loveless atmosphere that permeated my youth. I ponder this on a regular basis. But since it is water under the bridge, it is but a bit of that self-loathing we all have to some degree. I got over it.

But what is my point? I'm not sure, I'm still trying to figure that one out. Well, I just re-read my post and I guess I feel guilty for having actively participated in helping women to abort. Because, if not for the duty my parents felt to Life, I would not be here. And even though my youth was troubled, I am here. Abortion would have negated that.

I apologize for the long post. I have never discussed this with anyone, let alone posted it to the world. I guess I just needed to get it off my chest. Thanks $tinkle.

 

[jdcamb]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Im pro-death.

Babies are worthless vile creatures anyway. I think you should get a 3-month grace period after theyre born to decide if you really want it.

You scare me....jdcamb

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by CRUM
I apologize for the long post. I have never discussed this with anyone, let alone posted it to the world. I guess I just needed to get it off my chest. Thanks $tinkle.

CRUM, thanks for that. It was a fantastic post. Touching and informative.

We joke about how the anonymity of the internet means we can get away with saying anything... but it can also be fantastic way to get things out that we don't yet feel comfortable enough about to speak of out loud or in person.

I personally have no problem with your position being so gray. The need for everything to be black and white is, IMO, what gets us in trouble a lot of the time.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I posted a few weeks ago in the Wesley Clark abortion thread about how my wife when she was 18 got an abortion after she was raped. We have discussed this many times in the 8 years we have been together, in fact I am the only person she has shared that she had an abortion. She without a doubt believes that what she did was wrong, that her decision killed a human (the embryo) and that it is probably the worst decision of her life. That said she is healing from the experience, and the fact that she is currently expecting our first child I think is helping that process. As I think posters on this thread have shared, there is a huge emotional impact from an abortion. My wife got the abortion because at the time she believed that was her only option, she was very scared, and had no support (I’ll touch on this later) that encouraged other options besides abortion.

Now, my point of view / opinion / beliefs (whatever you want to call them): just as murdering a “full grown human” is wrong so is abortion. Granted that’s my opinion, feel free to disagree. In the research I have done on the subject, it seems to me there are only 4 basic differences between a “full grown human” and an embryo: size, environment that the person/embryo is in, length of development, and level of dependency. Of these 4 differences, none of them qualify as “valid” reasons to terminate a human life, again my opinion. I don’t know if I read that post on here or another thread but the statement was made that abortion is acceptable because there are so many unwanted children (or something to that effect). Does being wanted make a human life more “valuable”? Who is to judge quality of life, and does having a better quality of life mean your life is “more valuable”?

Our culture is great at taking things for granted and I think that is what we have done with the lives we have been given. When we lose the sense of awe that we are in fact alive, we lose sight that every human is a precious creation.

(Rant) I guess my biggest problem with the whole abortion “issue” is not the women who want abortions, or the Dr’s who perform them (take note I am “Pro life”), my biggest problem is with the stereotypical Christian “Pro Lifer” who stands in front of an abortion clinic and yells “Baby Killer” at those women going in there. How many of those “Pro Lifer’s” stand there and hold up a sign that says “We’ll adopt your baby” or “We love you, you have other options, we’ll take care of you”…………..not many that I have seen. When Jesus (sorry I had to bring the whole God thing up) ministered to the sinners (prostitutes, tax collectors, those at the margins of society) He did so by ministering to their needs, not yelling at them telling them they were going to hell. As Christians we are specifically called to minister to these people in love, not yelling. Anyway my whole point is, that if my wife would have had support either at home or at church, the outcome would have most likely been different. It’s sad that because of the stance (more like how it is talked about) of the modern Christian church on some issues (abortion, pornography, adultery) that people are “shamed” into silence when they encounter these problems. The Scriptures are crystal clear that as a community we are to encourage, support and bear each others burdens. But because people who struggle with these things are “shamed” into silence (this is so “bad” if anyone found out, they would not think I’m “super Christian” that I act every week), they hide these things, instead of sharing them so others can help. Sorry about the rant…………..it’s just been bugging me for a while, I hope all this made sense.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I posted a few weeks ago in the Wesley Clark abortion thread about how my wife when she was 18 got an abortion after she was raped. We have discussed this many times in the 8 years we have been together, in fact I am the only person she has shared that she had an abortion. She without a doubt believes that what she did was wrong, that her decision killed a human (the embryo) and that it is probably the worst decision of her life. That said she is healing from the experience, and the fact that she is currently expecting our first child I think is helping that process. As I think posters on this thread have shared, there is a huge emotional impact from an abortion. My wife got the abortion because at the time she believed that was her only option, she was very scared, and had no support (I’ll touch on this later) that encouraged other options besides abortion.

Now, my point of view / opinion / beliefs (whatever you want to call them): just as murdering a “full grown human” is wrong so is abortion. Granted that’s my opinion, feel free to disagree. In the research I have done on the subject, it seems to me there are only 4 basic differences between a “full grown human” and an embryo: size, environment that the person/embryo is in, length of development, and level of dependency. Of these 4 differences, none of them qualify as “valid” reasons to terminate a human life, again my opinion. I don’t know if I read that post on here or another thread but the statement was made that abortion is acceptable because there are so many unwanted children (or something to that effect). Does being wanted make a human life more “valuable”? Who is to judge quality of life, and does having a better quality of life mean your life is “more valuable”?

Our culture is great at taking things for granted and I think that is what we have done with the lives we have been given. When we lose the sense of awe that we are in fact alive, we lose sight that every human is a precious creation.

(Rant) I guess my biggest problem with the whole abortion “issue” is not the women who want abortions, or the Dr’s who perform them (take note I am “Pro life”), my biggest problem is with the stereotypical Christian “Pro Lifer” who stands in front of an abortion clinic and yells “Baby Killer” at those women going in there. How many of those “Pro Lifer’s” stand there and hold up a sign that says “We’ll adopt your baby” or “We love you, you have other options, we’ll take care of you”…………..not many that I have seen. When Jesus (sorry I had to bring the whole God thing up) ministered to the sinners (prostitutes, tax collectors, those at the margins of society) He did so by ministering to their needs, not yelling at them telling them they were going to hell. As Christians we are specifically called to minister to these people in love, not yelling. Anyway my whole point is, that if my wife would have had support either at home or at church, the outcome would have most likely been different. It’s sad that because of the stance (more like how it is talked about) of the modern Christian church on some issues (abortion, pornography, adultery) that people are “shamed” into silence when they encounter these problems. The Scriptures are crystal clear that as a community we are to encourage, support and bear each others burdens. But because people who struggle with these things are “shamed” into silence (this is so “bad” if anyone found out, they would not think I’m “super Christian” that I act every week), they hide these things, instead of sharing them so others can help. Sorry about the rant…………..it’s just been bugging me for a while, I hope all this made sense.

 

[llkoolkeg]

I find it sad that women have been made to feel that when they get pregnant, they actually have a decision to take. Where did we go wrong that such a question should even be posed? "So honey...you're...ah...pregnant. Shall we love and protect our offspring this time as befits our convenience and lifestyle or shall we have the nice doctor kill it for us?'' Some fvcking species we turned out to be.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
(Rant) I guess my biggest problem with the whole abortion “issue” is not the women who want abortions, or the Dr’s who perform them (take note I am “Pro life”), my biggest problem is with the stereotypical Christian “Pro Lifer” who stands in front of an abortion clinic and yells “Baby Killer” at those women going in there. How many of those “Pro Lifer’s” stand there and hold up a sign that says “We’ll adopt your baby” or “We love you, you have other options, we’ll take care of you”…………..not many that I have seen. When Jesus (sorry I had to bring the whole God thing up) ministered to the sinners (prostitutes, tax collectors, those at the margins of society) He did so by ministering to their needs, not yelling at them telling them they were going to hell.

amen brother!

Well, umm, I'm a Jew, so half-amen?

 

[charmin]

First, this thread's tone has been very respectful (which is refreshing).

It makes me sad when I hear about all these women who are very upset at their decision to have an abortion (after the fact). And I'm not referring to the women mentioned in these posts -- but I'm thinking more of the commercials.

All of us make decisions, every day, that are based on the information we have at the time. Obviously, we all try to make the best decisions we can. If it's true, that there is an epidemic of regretful women out there, what I think happens is that the women who decide to abort change their goalposts (i.e. they decide it's a good idea today, but 8 years from now they decide that it wouldn't have been so bad to have a baby).

It's the "what-if" game ad nauseum. And I truly mean you'll make yourself sick. You have to trust yourself (be it your younger self) that you made the best decision you could for yourself at the time.

 

[Jorvik]

I'm all for an abortion if the parents choose it.