[$tinkle]

there's some more dust-up outside of ghey puhree, and a new code-word is bandied about, see if you can spot it:

jerusalem post:

Youths beat up two police patrolling Paris suburb

Youths wielding iron bars beat up two riot policemen patrolling a rough housing project in a southern Paris suburb, police officials said Wednesday.

Police were called in to disperse the gang of up to 30 youths who stoned the unmarked police car as it patrolled the area, police officials said.

The police got out of their car, were encircled and attacked. Some of the youths were armed with iron bars, according to reports.

"These youths fear nothing," a police union official said on LCI television

expatica.com:

Outrage in France after two police ambushed in suburb

EVRY, France, Sept 20, 2006 (AFP) - Police unions reacted with outrage Wednesday after two members of a CRS anti-riot unit were badly hurt in an ambush by youths in the southern Paris suburb of Corbeil-Essonnes.

The men were patrolling Tuesday night in an unmarked car in the Les Tartarets housing project when the vehicle was attacked with stones, a police spokesman said.

When one of the officers left the vehicle, he was set upon by about 20 youths who had been hiding in the undergrowth.

the guardian:

Policeman badly injured in Paris gang attack

Up to 30 youths with makeshift weapons, some wearing masks, attacked two riot policemen at a housing estate outside Paris in an apparent ambush, seriously injuring one.

iht.com:

Youths attack 2 police patrolling troubled French suburb

PARIS A band of up to 30 youths armed with makeshift weapons and some wearing masks attacked two riot police patrolling a housing project outside Paris in an apparent ambush that seriously injured one of the officers, police officials said Wednesday.

The attack Tuesday night raised the specter of the violence that racked poor suburbs last year. It came amid reports of growing suburban delinquency, with the prefect of the Essonne region, where the incident occurred, saying that youth gangs were engaged in "acts of war."

The youths stoned the [police] car, encircled the officers when they got out, then attacked, according to various accounts.

"The youths were waiting in ambush in the woods and jumped out, their faces masked, to strike them with fists and pieces of wood," Joaquin Masanet, head of the UNSA-Police union, said in an interview. "The two officers had fallen into a trap and they (youths) were hitting them to kill."

"We're dealing with veritable acts of war [this signals the impending french loss - $tinkle] against police led by small groups," he said.

ok, pencils down. did you find it? the new replacement for "illegal immigrants" (which is part of the description of the group which was to blame during the previous riots) is "youths".

however....

these "youths" wore masks, so how do they know this is accurate? there's an elephant in the room. if the french press (& its aggregates) won't accurately name the would-be cop killers, what hope/prayer is there for curtailing another flame-up?

 

[Changleen]

How do you know these masked 'youths' were illegals? Tis is YOUR sweeping generalisation... Alot of the disaffected 'youth' in Paris is 2nd and 3rd gen, that's part of the reason for their disaffection, the cultural shear factor.

 

[$tinkle]

i'm not saying they're illegal immigrants, per se, as this is a distraction/diversion/misdirection. in fact, this attribution was inaccurate then, as it would be now.

the work ghettos, where a lot of this 'uprising' has occurred, is infected with a populous who refuse to assimilate (by france's standards, of course).

absolutely, there are marks of classism here, but there seems to be another element which makes this go-around more volatile.

round these parts, you beat up a cop we go rodney-king on you; hope they have the baguette do what needs to be done (i actually think they do given their history of how they treat lower class folks)

 

[Changleen]

Have you seen "La Haine"? If not I strongly recommend it, not just because of it's relevance to this, but also because it's a great movie. If you have a decent DVD rental place they'll probably have it, it was quite a big movie.

Watch it in the original French with subtitles, the dubbed version is lame.

Edit - IMDB link:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/

 

[Silver]

The fact that they are children of immigrants doesn't make them illegal. (In a Simpsonesqe Nelson 'Haha!' I feel the need to point out that the same situation in this country would make them citizens by birth.)

You have a source for that, I assume (hopefully something other than vdare?)

Besides, why are you worried about immigration? You live in Jesus Campland, and most people of Mexican heritage are Catholic. I can't imagine they find hanging out with your kind all that much fun...

 

[$tinkle]

The fact that they are children of immigrants doesn't make them illegal. (In a Simpsonesqe Nelson 'Haha!' I feel the need to point out that the same situation in this country would make them citizens by birth.)

actually it does:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/html/codes_traduits/code_civil_textA.htmY

just being born in country does not immediately afford one a beret, accordion, & citroen. you have to have lived in france for at least 5 continuous years after the age of eleven then apply for citizenship.

(hopefully something other than vdare?)

heh.
i had forgotten about them.

Besides, why are you worried about immigration? You live in Jesus Campland, and most people of Mexican heritage are Catholic. I can't imagine they find hanging out with your kind all that much fun...

yeah, but they're finally figuring out their peeps were converted at the point of a hat & are all turning non-denominational.


ot: today's woot sucks.

 

[Silver]

actually it does:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/html/codes_traduits/code_civil_textA.htmY

just being born in country does not immediately afford one a beret, accordion, & citroen. you have to have lived in france for at least 5 continuous years after the age of eleven then apply for citizenship.

You're making the rather large (and perhaps unwarranted) assumption that the parents of these youths are all illegal. I know France doesn't offer jus solis citizenship.

 

[rockwool]

Have you seen "La Haine"? If not I strongly recommend it, not just because of it's relevance to this, but also because it's a great movie. If you have a decent DVD rental place they'll probably have it, it was quite a big movie.

Watch it in the original French with subtitles, the dubbed version is lame.

That is a fantastic movie!

 

[Old Man G Funk]

actually it does:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/html/codes_traduits/code_civil_textA.htmY

just being born in country does not immediately afford one a beret, accordion, & citroen. you have to have lived in france for at least 5 continuous years after the age of eleven then apply for citizenship.
heh.

How do you know they haven't done that?

 

[DRB]

Maybe the French army should just enlist these kids. Sounds about the most successful French military operation in a 100 years.

 

[$tinkle]

You're making the rather large (and perhaps unwarranted) assumption that the parents of these youths are all illegal.

yes; this assumption seems to prevail. however, this holds only if they are NOT of algerian descent (i'm starting to find references to 2nd generation algerian immigrants being granted citizenship).

reading more & more about their decades-old history of lower class riots

How do you know they haven't [applied for citizenship]?

i don't.
it does, however, seem unlikely that some who are so broadly classified as 'youth' are in that narrow stratum (assuming both 'youth' defined as below 18 & ages among residents have normal distribution), and further, that application for citizenship would somehow asuage their resentment.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

it does, however, seem unlikely that some who are so broadly classified as 'youth' are in that narrow stratum (assuming both 'youth' defined as below 18 & ages among residents have normal distribution), and further, that application for citizenship would somehow asuage their resentment.

It's no guarantee that those who do apply for citizenship would be less rowdy just as those who are citizens could be just as bad. That's what I'm getting at. You have no idea whether they are illegal immigrants, legal citizens, muslim, black, white, etc. All you know is that they are being called "youths". It's completely unwarranted to make the jump that they automatically must be this or that. Hell, we have "youths" that walk around in large groups and cause destruction here in our country. Are all of them illegal immigrants?

 

[DRB]

It's no guarantee that those who do apply for citizenship would be less rowdy just as those who are citizens could be just as bad. That's what I'm getting at. You have no idea whether they are illegal immigrants, legal citizens, muslim, black, white, etc. All you know is that they are being called "youths". It's completely unwarranted to make the jump that they automatically must be this or that. Hell, we have "youths" that walk around in large groups and cause destruction here in our country. Are all of them illegal immigrants?

I think its a pretty safe bet that based on the area that the attack took place that these "youths" were of African decent and would most likely call themselves muslim.

 

[Westy]

So a bunch of kids from the ghetto beat up a cop? I'm glad that doesn't happen in my country, **** yeah!

 

[ohio]

Just because stinkle is a rabid racist doesn't make him wrong.

 

[$tinkle]

good to know you got my back.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Just because stinkle is a rabid racist doesn't make him wrong.

But the point of this whole thread was what? To point out that Muslim illegal aliens in France are revolting because Muslims are evil? I'm still actually trying to figure out why this thread was posted. If the point is what I've so far come to, then we should hold that discussion for when we know for sure or not that these youths really are Muslim illegal aliens.

 

[$tinkle]

But the point of this whole thread was what? To point out that Muslim illegal aliens in France are revolting because Muslims are evil? I'm still actually trying to figure out why this thread was posted. If the point is what I've so far come to, then we should hold that discussion for when we know for sure or not that these youths really are Muslim illegal aliens.

i'd like to point out, you were the first to associate 'muslim' with this topic, which i will now assert - believe it or not - is casual, and not causal.

my point (glad you asked) to this thread is that they're going to continue to have problems like this for quite some time until there is some measure of reform, both societally & governmentally.

however: plus ca change, plus c’est la même chose

 

[ohio]

But the point of this whole thread was what?

As far as I can tell to highlight the media's current fear of highlighting anything negative about muslims. That's not to say that only muslims are prone to violence or that muslims are particularly prone to violence (may be the case, but that's not the "elephant" in my opinion), but that where there is muslim-led violence we are afriad to call it muslim-led violence.'

edit: just saw his post above. so I was wrong. my post is still how I interpretted the thread.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

i'd like to point out, you were the first to associate 'muslim' with this topic, which i will now assert - believe it or not - is casual, and not causal.

You made the Algerian comment first actually.

my point (glad you asked) to this thread is that they're going to continue to have problems like this for quite some time until there is some measure of reform, both societally & governmentally.

however: plus ca change, plus c’est la même chose

OK, so what reforms should France make?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

As far as I can tell to highlight the media's current fear of highlighting anything negative about muslims. That's not to say that only muslims are prone to violence or that muslims are particularly prone to violence (may be the case, but that's not the "elephant" in my opinion), but that where there is muslim-led violence we are afriad to call it muslim-led violence.'

edit: just saw his post above. so I was wrong. my post is still how I interpretted the thread.

If I had come up with it, I would have guessed that was the intent too.

 

[llkoolkeg]

"Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me."

Ya gotta chuckle at the irony when the good name of The Prophet is sullied verbally and $hit like this happens(even if unrelated).

To be fair, my friends and I did the same thing to cops in my own neighborhood when growing up...we just used snowballs...and we scattered like fractals when Johnnie Law dismounted.

 

[$tinkle]

You made the Algerian comment first actually.

the algerian association was made w.r.t. citizenship of second generation immigrants. the fact that algeria is 99% sunnis is interesting - possibly even relevant.

OK, so what reforms should France make?

whatever the answer to that is has be addressed after they film "french history-X". if they don't revere/respect local authority with a human face, how can there be a hope they will submit to a nebulous "they" nat'l authority?

their socialist system, while noble in theory, is emboldening in practice. creates a dangerous co-dependency.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

the algerian association was made w.r.t. citizenship of second generation immigrants. the fact that algeria is 99% sunnis is interesting - possibly even relevant.

Well, I made the connection figuring that's where you were going with it.

whatever the answer to that is has be addressed after they film "french history-X". if they don't revere/respect local authority with a human face, how can there be a hope they will submit to a nebulous "they" nat'l authority?

Whoa there. That went over my head. I'm well aware that there is a film called "American History X" where a neo-Nazi goes to prison and learns the error of his ways, but too late with tragic consequences, but I'm not sure what that has to do with French reform.

their socialist system, while noble in theory, is emboldening in practice. creates a dangerous co-dependency.

You think socialism is to blame? You're going to have to explain that to me too.

 

[$tinkle]

Well, I made the connection figuring that's where you were going with it.

i'm certainly not making pains to avoid the connection, as the media-at-large is (ohio correctly pointed this out)

Whoa there. That went over my head. I'm well aware that there is a film called "American History X" where a neo-Nazi goes to prison and learns the error of his ways, but too late with tragic consequences, but I'm not sure what that has to do with French reform.

assuming the tragedy is one of derek's younger brother being murdered is disjoint from his coming to his senses when he finally addresses his own racist fallibility. maybe we're talking past each other. my point with the example of a french version of american history x is that reform should take place in a manner which removes (or disarms) the tinderbox of hatred vis-a-vis willfully & actively encouraging assimilation, without removing ethnic/religious heritage. both parties must be willing to agree to this.

You think socialism is to blame? You're going to have to explain that to me too.

france's implementation of socialism is to blame. need more checks & balances. the way i see if from 5,000 miles away, they're letting themselves become a doormat by letting those who receive benefits (paid for by the rightful citizens of france) elevate the issue into what amounts to demanding rights, which are reserved for select citizens.

i'm recalling most notably the law passed which legalized descrimination against certain workers, which happened to be largely represented by the unassimilated lower-class

 

[Old Man G Funk]

i'm certainly not making pains to avoid the connection, as the media-at-large is (ohio correctly pointed this out)

That may very well be true. Although in this case we don't know yet.

assuming the tragedy is one of derek's younger brother being murdered is disjoint from his coming to his senses when he finally addresses his own racist fallibility. maybe we're talking past each other. my point with the example of a french version of american history x is that reform should take place in a manner which removes (or disarms) the tinderbox of hatred vis-a-vis willfully & actively encouraging assimilation, without removing ethnic/religious heritage. both parties must be willing to agree to this.

I still don't see the connection to the film, but I get what you are trying to say. Of course, I wonder is that something we do in our own country?

france's implementation of socialism is to blame. need more checks & balances. the way i see if from 5,000 miles away, they're letting themselves become a doormat by letting those who receive benefits (paid for by the rightful citizens of france) elevate the issue into what amounts to demanding rights, which are reserved for select citizens.

i'm recalling most notably the law passed which legalized descrimination against certain workers, which happened to be largely represented by the unassimilated lower-class

You seem to be more well versed on France's law than I do (are you a secret francophile?) so I can't really argue the merits of that with you. Is that really a result of socialism, however, or of immigration policy?

 

[$tinkle]

i'm not saying "i told ya so", only b/c it's the-nose-on-your-face type stuff:

Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union

Radical Muslims in France's housing estates are waging an undeclared "intifada" against the police, with violent clashes injuring an average of 14 officers each day.

Nicolas Sarkozy
Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy was warned of an 'intifada'

As the interior ministry said that nearly 2,500 officers had been wounded this year, a police union declared that its members were "in a state of civil war" with Muslims in the most depressed "banlieue" estates which are heavily populated by unemployed youths of north African origin.

It said the situation was so grave that it had asked the government to provide police with armoured cars to protect officers in the estates, which are becoming no-go zones.

The number of attacks has risen by a third in two years. Police representatives told the newspaper Le Figaro that the "taboo" of attacking officers on patrol has been broken.

Instead, officers – especially those patrolling in pairs or small groups – faced attacks as soon as they tried to arrest locals.

Senior officers insisted that the problem was essentially criminal in nature, with crime bosses on the estates fighting back against tough tactics.

The interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, who is also the leading centre-Right candidate for the presidency, has sent heavily equipped units into areas with orders to regain control from drug smuggling gangs and other organised crime rings. Such aggressive raids were "disrupting the underground economy in the estates", one senior official told Le Figaro.

However, not all officers on the ground accept that essentially secular interpretation. Michel Thoomis, the secretary general of the hardline Action Police trade union, has written to Mr Sarkozy warning of an "intifada" on the estates and demanding that officers be given armoured cars in the most dangerous areas.

He said yesterday: "We are in a state of civil war, orchestrated by radical Islamists. This is not a question of urban violence any more, it is an intifada, with stones and Molotov cocktails. You no longer see two or three youths confronting police, you see whole tower blocks emptying into the streets to set their 'comrades' free when they are arrested."

He added: "We need armoured vehicles and water cannon. They are the only things that can disperse crowds of hundreds of people who are trying to kill police and burn their vehicles."

However, Gerard Demarcq, of the largest police unions, Alliance, dismissed talk of an "intifada" as representing the views of only a minority.

Mr Demarcq said that the increased attacks on officers were proof that the policy of "retaking territory" from criminal gangs was working.

Mayors in the worst affected suburbs, which saw weeks of riots and car-burning a year ago, have expressed fears of a vicious circle, as attacks by locals lead the police to harden their tactics, further increasing resentment.

As if to prove that point, there were angry reactions in the western Paris suburb of Les Mureaux following dawn raids in search of youths who attacked a police unit on Sunday. The raids led to one arrest. They followed clashes on Sunday night when scores of youths attacked seven officers who had tried to arrest a man for not wearing his seat belt while driving. That driver refused to stop, and later rammed a police car trying to block his path.