Saint 820 brakes inconsistent bite point - any fixes or solutions yet?
- Thread starter rscecil007
- Start date
Mine kinda do the same, one minute they lock up near the bar, the next minute after a few big bumps they lock up at the very beginning of the stroke, the next minute they lock up back at the bar.....
I thought it was a bad bleed, but I'm now starting to think it's just a shit brake.....warranty through the mail order bike shop I purchased the bike at, or direct with shimano?
Through the dealer.
So, about 2 weeks ago, I finally got my brakes issue sorted. The solution? After taking 5 months to send me a replacement set of the 9000 series xtrs, which also failed, I now have a set of saints installed. They work great.
The problem now? My 4-5 month old 36 float now has Cryo creak again. This is my 3rd CSU in under 2 years. Shall I go for a 4th?
maybe if you'd simmer down with the crazy extreme biking you wouldn't have these problems.
Are you kidding me? This post has been up 3 hours and no one has suggested a RUX yet?
RM, I am disappoint.
'15 model year? Mine's a little creaky after like 5 rides. Not pleased.
oooh...they make single crown RUX nao? sign me up!
Or to try it now. Sad, really...
Pretty incredible that Fox hasn't figured this shit out, when they've been having problems with it for years. Nobody else seems to have nearly as many problems with that joint.
ERMAGERD, WHY IS EVERYONE OBSESSED WITH THE RUX
Mine ('15 float 170) has been good...it's probably actually your seat post clamp
The reason for our problems is in most of the cases the master cylinder. My issue was even worse - the lever started to stick, so not returning after pulling the brake lever. I took the lever apart. The master cylinder is a piece of crappy plastic with 2 seals. The plastic gets worn more and more as dirt is getting in the bore. If the plastic "cap" (where the power from the servo mechanism is applied) wears out, it allows dirt coming inside and starts to wear the seals. I guess the same master cylinder is used through the whole lineup, doesn´t matter if cheap alivio or Gucci XTR. If the seals are worn a bit, small amount of air will leak in and the whole bite-point mess starts to grow. The next stage is a lever which is returnig slowly, or gets sticky at all.
The free-stroke mechanism is a simple (once-again) plastic kind of washer on a small needle on one part and a screw on the upper part. By screwing the free-stroke screw down, the plastic washer starts to apply preassure on the master cylinder and the master cylinder moves a bit inside (not much either, 1-2 mm max. I guess). There is nothing else different to the "non-free-stroke" levers. The only thing is, that dirt gets between the plastic washer and the master cylinder and is harder tu clean/pull out and the whole wear issue starts sooner.
It is a shame that:
1st - the part is not available as spare part for few cents (or at least I am not aware of it) and the lever itself is designed as "non serviceable" - like hidden screws, extruded needle holding the free-stroke washer, etc.
2nd - Shimano uses the same crappy part on all groups of brakes. I would like to see some hard anodized aluminium or brass master cylinders ond the higher-end groups, or at least a better sealing approach, as the plastic cylinder is so exposed :-(
On the picture you can see the master cylinder, I managed to sand the plastic collars a bit to allow free movement of the cylinder again, but anyhow, air leaking issue will presumably get worse as the seals (you can also notice on the pic) are already scratched. I also tensioned the spring, to give it more power for pushing the cylinder back:
The free-stroke mechanism is a simple (once-again) plastic kind of washer on a small needle on one part and a screw on the upper part. By screwing the free-stroke screw down, the plastic washer starts to apply preassure on the master cylinder and the master cylinder moves a bit inside (not much either, 1-2 mm max. I guess). There is nothing else different to the "non-free-stroke" levers. The only thing is, that dirt gets between the plastic washer and the master cylinder and is harder tu clean/pull out and the whole wear issue starts sooner.
It is a shame that:
1st - the part is not available as spare part for few cents (or at least I am not aware of it) and the lever itself is designed as "non serviceable" - like hidden screws, extruded needle holding the free-stroke washer, etc.
2nd - Shimano uses the same crappy part on all groups of brakes. I would like to see some hard anodized aluminium or brass master cylinders ond the higher-end groups, or at least a better sealing approach, as the plastic cylinder is so exposed :-(
On the picture you can see the master cylinder, I managed to sand the plastic collars a bit to allow free movement of the cylinder again, but anyhow, air leaking issue will presumably get worse as the seals (you can also notice on the pic) are already scratched. I also tensioned the spring, to give it more power for pushing the cylinder back:
Necro..
I just bought some basically brand new saints from a buddy. I installed and bled the shit out of the rear. Definitely got the inconsistent bite point and a tad of fade on long fast brake burner descents. The front did it too. After the bleed the felt rock solid. Anyone still having these problems with saints? I'll bleed them again.
I just bought some basically brand new saints from a buddy. I installed and bled the shit out of the rear. Definitely got the inconsistent bite point and a tad of fade on long fast brake burner descents. The front did it too. After the bleed the felt rock solid. Anyone still having these problems with saints? I'll bleed them again.
This is why Shimano (and Avid/SRAM, and many other) brakes suck for long term use.
They use plastic MC pistons in a cast alloy MC body. Guess why you can't just switch to a better piston? Because then the soft cast bore wears. In fact this still happens with the plastic piston - it's what turns mineral oil silvery-black after a while. The entire product is made of low quality materials so if you fix one problem you create another. I agree it's ridiculous that they use the same junk in their high-end product lines (eg. Saint / XTR) so they have the exact same problems.
Formula (in their high-end brakes) use a hard anodized alloy piston in a cold-forged then machined MC body, often with a polymer bushing to mitigate direct contact wear. Hope use an anodized piston in a machined MC body (which still wears eventually but miles better than Shimano/SRAM). Neither are perfect, but both are so much better than the mainstream brands.
MC piston from the RO-Racing brake:
Trickstuff also use a machined+anodized piston in a 7075 alloy MC body, with a polymer bushing as the wear surface. There's a reason some brands cost a lot more than others, because they're designed to last consistently without 50% of the product fleet failing prematurely.
MC / piston from Diretissima brake:
Tldr-
After reading the first page, I stopped. Why people have stuck with a shitty brake company after years of issues, I have no idea...
Anyway, I thought of a bleeding method I didn't see listed. Put in some old pads. Squeeze the lever till the pistons are pushed in without popping out. Bleed the brakes. Push the pistons back in while tapping on the caliper and standing on your left foot singing Bang, Bang went the Trolley.
Hayes Stroker Ace and Hope V4 and E4 owner with absolutely no issues bleeding or riding. Ever.
Aces lasted 7 years and went with the bike in perfect working condition. One bleed when they were brand new on the bike. Never touched them again.
V4's bled 3 years ago when I cut the lines. No issues and no re-bleeds since then.
E4vs brand new this year and same as above- cut, bleed, ride. Nothing else.
After reading the first page, I stopped. Why people have stuck with a shitty brake company after years of issues, I have no idea...
Anyway, I thought of a bleeding method I didn't see listed. Put in some old pads. Squeeze the lever till the pistons are pushed in without popping out. Bleed the brakes. Push the pistons back in while tapping on the caliper and standing on your left foot singing Bang, Bang went the Trolley.
Hayes Stroker Ace and Hope V4 and E4 owner with absolutely no issues bleeding or riding. Ever.
Aces lasted 7 years and went with the bike in perfect working condition. One bleed when they were brand new on the bike. Never touched them again.
V4's bled 3 years ago when I cut the lines. No issues and no re-bleeds since then.
E4vs brand new this year and same as above- cut, bleed, ride. Nothing else.
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Well if you don't use them....
Seriously, I've had pretty much tested, used, owned, bleed, fixed, dealt with most brakes on the market the last 20years. All work great if you don't use them that much. But when you have long runs (600m vertical and more) that are steep and muddy all brakes need service in the end of the day/week/month. sure there are differences in how much service but if you use them they are going to need it.
Because they all suck. If they don't, they either have no power (so they do suck actually) or are ridiculously expensive (which sucks).
IMO, Shimano MCs own 1/10th of the Shimano problems, the rest is on the calipers.
With Zee levers being available for $25/side, I am not too worried. The calipers, OTOH.... #saintguras rule
With Zee levers being available for $25/side, I am not too worried. The calipers, OTOH.... #saintguras rule
So you guys would rather have $180 brakes that don't work (saints) vs a "rediculously expensive" $220 set that works? Got it.
You flatter me! But really, I'm not THAT good of a rider. I'm probably the biggest rider on here, so reliability is key. 400, 750 and 1200 meters and they work every time.
Never really had any problems with my Saint/xtr/slx/xt/ultimates. Did have a problem with an older set of xt where if you left them for a couple of months you had to go ride down a long hill to bed them in again but most brakes do that.
In general what I prefer to use is parts that are easy to service and have parts that are available everywhere. When you travel somewhere, maybe to another country or just across the country to another bike park, it's so nice to be able to grab a new set of brake pads, new hose, new lever or some other spare part. It's way to easy to forget a set of pads at home, or crash and destroy a hose or lever.
Would absolutely love to have some really trick stuff on my bike but when you can't ride because you're waiting on some spare part it sucks.
What brakes costs 220$ per set and work?
That is a 270 USD for single brake = 540 bucks for a set. Pair of Zee brakes cost 200 bucks. Not to mention the V4s are less powerful.
I didn't have the best luck with my hope v4's/tech3 either.. I bled and messed with them all the time and had slight fading as well. (Edited) with constant tinkering, I could get The bite point consistent on them though. I think its more of a quad piston thing. If Those pistons don't all move evenly and at the same time, they push one end of the pad more than the other. That makes them feel squishy. on the hopes, If I would take the time to get all pistons moving equally and pads all making even contact, the bite point was perfect. But.. they would always seem to get themselves back out.
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No, that's $217 usd per set.
Being heavy, these brakes stop me on a dime. When are Zees more powerful? When they decide to work or when they fail? Again.
I say set, you say pair. Whatever. They're not $270 that's for sure. When I bought mine I got the V4's for $189 each. 3 years, one bleed, no fade, no warranty. Reliable brakes that work.Order one. Watch how many you get
I don't run Dura-ace shifter/brake levers with Magura calipers and gremica pads that I had to grind down to fit like some people on here tried to do.
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Yes a pair (if your synonym for that is 'set') of brakes is 4 pieces, two levers and two calipers. Troy said that's one brake, which is one lever and one caliper. You corrected him by saying that's a set. He was correct. It's one brake. Maybe he was thinking that was uk lbs and converting to usd for the 270. But that's still 100 bucks more per brake than a shimano. But there is purple.......
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So be cheap and save your $100. Just don't save your ass.
Ps. You guys get very nitpicky when you're "challenged" in your beliefs by someone else.
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Those are boiled brakes son. Similar to what happened to a friend of mine riding codes at andorra.
Troy pointed out that chain reaction wasn't selling complete sets of brakes for that price, so what are we wrong about again?
Troy pointed out that chain reaction wasn't selling complete sets of brakes for that price, so what are we wrong about again?
Merlin $193 each! (or as the pros call it a "set").
Saints are $180 each.
It's amazing what the internet and googles can do in 5 seconds!
https://www.merlincycles.com/hope-tech-3-v4-disc-brake-64678.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=MTB+Disc+Brakes&ucpo=21793&gclid=Cj0KCQjwx8fOBRD7ARIsAPVq-NmhwhcjrcOJ_2dDH6UsHgPAk8XIsi-8XAye3FyH-fX0YXBRg7kzerIaAnsaEALw_wcB
You gals should start a class action lawsuit against Shimano and Avid for how many times they failed.