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Saint 820 brakes inconsistent bite point - any fixes or solutions yet?
- Thread starter rscecil007
- Start date
Set vs pair. Bla, bla bla...
You should write a book- Kidwoo Rodham Clinton: What Happened
I'm comparing Saint to V4. If you wanna throw Zees in there, I'll mention Avid bb7's. They're probably about $15 each now. And more reliable! Lol! Rawrrrrr!!!1!
OH, please! Cause I mentioned a biography, now you need to follow suit? Be more original like your Dura-ace/Magura/gremica brake set. Pshhhhh...
OH, please! Cause I mentioned a biography, now you need to follow suit? Be more original like your Dura-ace/Magura/gremica brake set. Pshhhhh...
Nighty, night. I'll come back tomorrow morning to see what presents you left for me. I just hope it's not a pair of Shimano brakes!
Well they have been doing it the last 5 years or is it 6? Can't remember. I can live with it. I only ride that bike once every third full moon.
Well, BB7 comparison would be just stupid, as the Zee brakes are basically the same brakes as Saints (less fancy lever, same power, modulation, etc.).
Retail price for Zees in Europe is rougly 185 EUR, Saints are 280 EUR, V4s are 515 EUR. For a SET. You still can get Shimanos even cheaper, which is not the case with Hope stuff, as their pricing is not OEM friendly and they are not available through different channels than a LBS/online stores usually.
Now, go get some FORKS for Your bike.
Oh please, Troy... Stop being so silly and go buy a pair of V4's. This conversation would be over already.
I'd ask in the Frankenbrake thread, Kidwoo and I think some others use them (and have posted some commentary on them). I personally think they'd be great for a 26" trailbike, fine for a 27.5" trailbike with an 8" front rotor, and not at all for a modern 27.5" DH bike. I'd probably also avoid them on a 29er unless it's a lighter duty bike and has an 8" minimum rotor.
You could probably also look into the Hope E4 if you're considering the Cura.
Bickering between yourselves (Troy / Electric) doesn't change the facts.
1. Shimano levers fail semi-regularly, sometimes dangerously.
Many people I know have ditched them for Hopes so that they can have a reliable, multiple-season brake. The build quality and materials are far superior, plus all small parts are available unlike Shimano who consider their brakes disposable; because they are. Like I said, there's a reason some brands cost more. It's also a safety issue, even though not everyone may see it that way. Cheap and disposable is great until it causes injury. I've seen levers come to bars randomly on perfectly well looked after / bled Shimano brakes and cause instant crashes.
2. Hopes don't generate as much braking force as Shimano.
Most brakes don't. In fact, a highly respected ex-RM tech-personality-turned-industry-member (no points for guessing who) flat out refuses to run Hopes in particular (as well as Formula, etc) purely because they don't stop well enough. So for guys like EC that think Hope are god's gift, remember that there's people out there who are bigger and/or faster than you who might see them as completely inadequate in terms of stopping power. Sidenote: Saint offers pretty much nothing over Zee (basically the same weight, same power, and same rubbish quality) so Troy's usage of Zee pricing for comparison is valid.
3. A 650b DH bike at a bikepark is way harder on brakes than you at your "Enduro" trail
The constant dragging combined with heat issues and a generally inferior angle of inclination for the rear brake results in potential failures surfacing more regularly and more quickly. I honestly think MOST brakes work great on trailbikes because they just don't cop the sustained abuse that leads to failure. I'm not saying this isn't your personal application - but neither of you detailed your usage, nor your body weight, it all makes a huge difference. This leads to my final point:
4. Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean it'll work for EVERYONE.
I've been guilty of this myself, and I think it's important to remember.
1. Shimano levers fail semi-regularly, sometimes dangerously.
Many people I know have ditched them for Hopes so that they can have a reliable, multiple-season brake. The build quality and materials are far superior, plus all small parts are available unlike Shimano who consider their brakes disposable; because they are. Like I said, there's a reason some brands cost more. It's also a safety issue, even though not everyone may see it that way. Cheap and disposable is great until it causes injury. I've seen levers come to bars randomly on perfectly well looked after / bled Shimano brakes and cause instant crashes.
2. Hopes don't generate as much braking force as Shimano.
Most brakes don't. In fact, a highly respected ex-RM tech-personality-turned-industry-member (no points for guessing who) flat out refuses to run Hopes in particular (as well as Formula, etc) purely because they don't stop well enough. So for guys like EC that think Hope are god's gift, remember that there's people out there who are bigger and/or faster than you who might see them as completely inadequate in terms of stopping power. Sidenote: Saint offers pretty much nothing over Zee (basically the same weight, same power, and same rubbish quality) so Troy's usage of Zee pricing for comparison is valid.
3. A 650b DH bike at a bikepark is way harder on brakes than you at your "Enduro" trail
The constant dragging combined with heat issues and a generally inferior angle of inclination for the rear brake results in potential failures surfacing more regularly and more quickly. I honestly think MOST brakes work great on trailbikes because they just don't cop the sustained abuse that leads to failure. I'm not saying this isn't your personal application - but neither of you detailed your usage, nor your body weight, it all makes a huge difference. This leads to my final point:
4. Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean it'll work for EVERYONE.
I've been guilty of this myself, and I think it's important to remember.
I got'em. I dig'em. I've used them on two different bikes, a 27.5 trail bike and a 26" dh bike. They work and are more consistent than anything shimano makes right now. Almost as strong too (like really close comparatively). I don't like the lever shape though and it's hard to get them to engage close to the bar. I pulled the lever arms and bent them a little and that helped but ultimately I put shimano levers on there with the cura calipers. They're a pain in the ass to bleed with either lever but you can get it done well with some patience and getting the bleed ports at each end at the same elevation.
I do heat up the ones on my dh bike. Not enough to screw with the fluid but I think I do get some glazing on there. Then my brakes whine for a run and then stop. Small price to pay for cheap, strong brakes that never vary the bite point IMO. If I were recommending brakes to someone right now, especially if they don't want DOT fluid, the curas are it.
Bout as fancy as a plaid shirt.
All forged bits, nothing machined.
All forged bits, nothing machined.
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They've brought back the quad piston XTs... with any luck they'll start making M810 saints again. Still fucky, but great power and a bit more reliable than the M820s.
I've given up finding a brake that is as powerful as the M810 so I'm running V4s. Very tempted to chuck some saint pads in there (I think they'll fit) for an experiment in the future. Trickstuff weren't happy with just being ridiculously expensive - apparently people still wanted them, so they decided to be expensive AND unavailable.
I've given up finding a brake that is as powerful as the M810 so I'm running V4s. Very tempted to chuck some saint pads in there (I think they'll fit) for an experiment in the future. Trickstuff weren't happy with just being ridiculously expensive - apparently people still wanted them, so they decided to be expensive AND unavailable.
Unfortunately I doubt it.
- Same low quality cast MC/lever body as SRAM/Shimano
- Super heavy (316g = heavier than Saint M820 and Hope V4 with steel braided hoses)
- Bottom loading pads = wtf
- Not super powerful, touted for "modulation"
- Finned caliper with insulating piston material = poor understanding of heat transfer
The only good point is they use a generous sized pad, and it's compatible with Saint pads - but not with the heatsink ones, so basically it's a pretty "meh" brake all round.
IMO all that needs to happen is to combine Hope/Formula build quality / materials with Shimano M820 stopping power. There's only one brake that currently does this, and it's priced accordingly.
Keep in mind this is for heavy DH. For Enduro there are plenty of options that will work fine.
Formula just needs to sell that quad piston cura caliper that bruni was using. Assuming it works of course.
Ya, weird ass saint brakes.. rode some really rough trails today. The rear lever would feel totally normal, hit some rough stuff and the bite point would be way further out.. ride some smooth, the bite would be back to normal. Brakes worked great all day, but really annoying..
When you turn the bike upside down, then put it right side up, does it have to "pump up" at all? If so, that's tell-tale air in the system. On my XT and XTR brakes, air in the system seemed to be the cause of inconsistent lever bite, especially when they seemed to work correctly "most of the time" and then every once and a while they'd throw a weird lever-pull.
For years, I thought it was just me, I tried every and anything to get my Mono M4s to provide good power, cleaning the rotors over and over again, new pads, etc., with a 200mm front rotor, but the power was never enough for real steep/aggressive terrain. Started off with DH4s when they first came out, it was the same thing, although I think I had 185 rotors F and R because the 200mm standard for DH bikes wasn't established yet.
I agree. I've got a set of 810s that will occasionally pull to the bar or bite at say 1% into the lever stroke, but the power (IMO) makes up for the unpredictable braking moments.
Aw man reaching for them with the bite point way sooner is like a caribbean beach vacation. That's awesome.
Just wait until you get the reverse when you need to get on them hard and have nothing there with the lever pinned against the bar. That's when the real party starts. Good luck!
Only partially correct, see this test:
http://www.bike-magazin.de/komponenten/bremsen/labor--und-praxistest-2016-mtb-scheibenbremsen/a34206.html#start
How is that partially correct? The test literally shows that Hopes E4, despite higher hydraulic leverage are much weaker and heavier than competition.
I crashed the other day as a direct result of that happening. Tried to scrub a little speed going into a corner, lever went to the bar, I ran wide, stuffed my front wheel into some soft dirt outside of the corner and got ejected OTB.
He said 'most brakes don't' generate as much braking force as Shimano, which is not correct. Basically the only real outlier is the Hope, all others are equally strong or stronger.
That test seems counter-intuitive? My Hope E4s were lighter than the XTs they replaced, by 50g an end from memory. Also, it shows the Trickstuffs being less powerful than Shimano XTs??
This test is the other one I've seen with results that differ from the Bike Mag test - http://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/2/
Enduro mag tested with 50 Newton hand force, Bike mag with 80. That might explain the differences. Or different pads.
In both of these cases - while it's great that someone conducted an actual test (unlike the typically worthless Pinkbike / Vital "review"), let's keep in mind that the results can't blindly be considered fact.
Using the factory-fitted pads alone is enough to generate plenty of variation in results, but there are other issues too. A load cell test between the caliper pistons (with pads removed) would be a better gauge of peak raw braking force. Unsure on the logistics (i.e. if you can get a setup small enough to fit), but the variables in the current test method mean that the force output tables are (potentially VERY) misleading. Even this method leaves potential inconsistencies on the lever end - in terms of the blade tip vs. MC piston mechanical leverage curve.
To add some practical experience - the Trickstuff Direttissima is very powerful (I don't think many others here have ridden it), and I certainly felt it had more power than the M820. However, if we believe the enduro-mtb test, it is 22.67% more powerful than the M820. Did anyone stop to consider how ridiculous this claim is? Even taking pad variations into account, it's highly unlikely, and a good example of how we can't take these results at face value.
What you'll find is that the test method needs to be far more stringent to generate data which a) is valid, and b) correlates with reality.
Using the factory-fitted pads alone is enough to generate plenty of variation in results, but there are other issues too. A load cell test between the caliper pistons (with pads removed) would be a better gauge of peak raw braking force. Unsure on the logistics (i.e. if you can get a setup small enough to fit), but the variables in the current test method mean that the force output tables are (potentially VERY) misleading. Even this method leaves potential inconsistencies on the lever end - in terms of the blade tip vs. MC piston mechanical leverage curve.
To add some practical experience - the Trickstuff Direttissima is very powerful (I don't think many others here have ridden it), and I certainly felt it had more power than the M820. However, if we believe the enduro-mtb test, it is 22.67% more powerful than the M820. Did anyone stop to consider how ridiculous this claim is? Even taking pad variations into account, it's highly unlikely, and a good example of how we can't take these results at face value.
Lol.
Go ride all these brakes yourself for a day each in a bikepark on a 650b DH bike, with the same / similar pad compound, and then try to correlate the results to the "tests" you are quoting.
What you'll find is that the test method needs to be far more stringent to generate data which a) is valid, and b) correlates with reality.
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I don't argue this at all but nobody is doing this kind of testing in the bike world (or at least not showing the data).
Reason that I quote these test is that they are the only objective data I can get my hands on. Like you said, PB, Vital and others are just giving their opinions, and sorry to say it, so do you. While I highly respect your technical insights and results of your testing, this is also not a scientific test. With the testing I do for myself I am often surprised what seems to be better by feel but can't be backed up with data. These lab test at least have the same conditions for all brakes, so you can compare them with each other in the given test scenario. How much this simulates a real world situation can of course be discussed.
If you can't eliminate variables from a test to a high degree - you end up with misleading and potentially useless results. You are mistakenly assuming that "any scientific test" constitutes "a correct and accurate scientific test".
To test brakes truly objectively in the manner that these magazines are trying to - you would have to put about as much time and effort into designing the test rig as you would into designing a set of compromise-free MTB brakes. Given how many companies struggle at the product itself, how can you expect anything from the rig?
You say "same conditions" but if you actually think about in detail - there are many facets that affect the mechanical leverage at the lever (which is a curve, affected by reach adjust, throw adjust if applicable, and the throw distance) that can easily be miscalculated / misappropriated by a) the initial setup of the brake, b) initial condition of the brake (including bleed, which affects the stroke and thus peak mechanical leverage) and c) the load input / actuator design and its interface with various levers.
By using a dyno to gauge peak brake force, we are adding variables to a far more simple equation - which can be calculated simply by combining mechanical leverage curve with hydraulic leverage ratio. These tests are more useful to potentially gauge things like pad compounds and temperature/time effects on friction.
Of course, you are free to assume I am plastering around my opinions as fact on this topic, and purchase brakes based on these "scientific" reviews. I've had extensive time on 80-90% of the brakes in both tests and the results are so far disconnected from reality that sadly - they are bordering on irrelevant.
Finally, the build quality / materials / consistency / longevity are just as important as the raw power (otherwise I'd certainly be happy on M820s myself), so even if we did have the perfect dyno test, we'd still have half the picture missing - especially in terms of what this thread concerns!
Like I said, I highly value your insight and didn't mean to offend you. I just know from myself that I have a hard time being 100% objective. What the Bike magazine has done is that they have recorded the forces of braking with a bike with sensors on and then tried to simulate this in the dyno test. Yes, there are many real world things removed, but you get closer to a scientific approach. To be fair, I purchased brakes based on some of their tests (R1, The One) and found everything they said to be correct. Their articles not only take the lab data into account but they also ride the brakes and give their opinions. A couple of years back they discovered that the Ice Tech rotor's aluminum core would melt under a heavy rider that is hard on the brakes. They were the first ones and although this doesn't seem to be a huge real world problem they showed the limits of the system.
That said, I am taking most of their tests with a grain of salt as often/most of the times the scientific approach is not properly followed (e.g. sample number, replication). We will e.g. never know the variation in brakes unless someone dyno's 10 sets of each brake.
Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla...
I rode Platty this weekend. Hope V4's, 203mm discs, red backed pads (last me more than a season), 650 wheels and 315.6lbs Saturday morning.
Rode the steepest shit at Platty with the brakes on probably 99% of the time f/r. Top to bottom runs, biggest smiles I've had all year! Brakes were AGAIN flawless! One finger braking, no sore hands. No lever adjustment. No spontaneous lever adjustments. One very minor spill (not brake fluid!). Got in some awesome runs.
I unfortunately didn't have time to pull out my infrared temp gage, power meter, laptop and micrometer to play games. Riding was fucking awesome! That "wall" on the "DH" course was sick. I'll have to make it a point to find it more often.
A special thanks to Lazlo for keeping the stoke alive at Platty. I hope that he adds some more weekends next year. Thanks to Hope for keeping my fat ass safe so I can enjoy more riding and less time repairing my bikes or body.
Tee, hee, hee! Happy as a pig in mud!
Carry on...
I rode Platty this weekend. Hope V4's, 203mm discs, red backed pads (last me more than a season), 650 wheels and 315.6lbs Saturday morning.
Rode the steepest shit at Platty with the brakes on probably 99% of the time f/r. Top to bottom runs, biggest smiles I've had all year! Brakes were AGAIN flawless! One finger braking, no sore hands. No lever adjustment. No spontaneous lever adjustments. One very minor spill (not brake fluid!). Got in some awesome runs.
I unfortunately didn't have time to pull out my infrared temp gage, power meter, laptop and micrometer to play games. Riding was fucking awesome! That "wall" on the "DH" course was sick. I'll have to make it a point to find it more often.
A special thanks to Lazlo for keeping the stoke alive at Platty. I hope that he adds some more weekends next year. Thanks to Hope for keeping my fat ass safe so I can enjoy more riding and less time repairing my bikes or body.
Tee, hee, hee! Happy as a pig in mud!
Carry on...