Sandbagging

Heidi · Jul 17, 2006

Word.

robdamanii · Jul 17, 2006

Not even a chick and I hate that as well. I love people who say, on the starting line "I'm just here for the series points and a medal. I should move up, but I like winning."

laura · Jul 17, 2006

I feel you.....

I think its funny. Ok, so say you downgrade and win. Why did you win? Because you purposely raced in a class of women that aren't as good as you are (because of less expirience, not necessarily less skill) and you know it. You can have the win wierdo. Whats the point really. You aren't better than any sports riders in the grand scheme of things, you just can't hack it with the experts. Sounds like loser to me.

DH Diva · Jul 17, 2006

Actually, if it's a NORBA sanctioned event, racers aren't supposed to be racing out of class.

Straight from the USA Cycling rulebook:
Riders may advance as quickly as they wish up to Sport. However, once a rider has upgraded, he or she will not be permitted to downgrade to a less difficult category without making a formal request to NORBA. The upgrading of categories will be noted on the racing license by NORBA. The NORBA Official at the event may record the upgrade of a rider to Sport or to Expert. The official will then contact the NORBA Region Manager to record the change. A rider may also contact NORBA or the NORBA Region Manager by email, in writing, or online to change categories.

Beginner racers must move to the appropriate Sport category after placing in the top five in five races. Failure to do so may result in license suspension.

Sport riders may move up to the expert category after two top five finishes by presenting an upgrade request and a resume to a NORBA official or to NORBA. Sport riders must advance to the appropriate Expert category after placing in the top five in five races. Failure to do so may result in license suspension.

robdamanii · Jul 17, 2006

DH Diva said:
Actually, if it's a NORBA sanctioned event, racers aren't supposed to be racing out of class.

Straight from the USA Cycling rulebook:
Riders may advance as quickly as they wish up to Sport. However, once a rider has upgraded, he or she will not be permitted to downgrade to a less difficult category without making a formal request to NORBA. The upgrading of categories will be noted on the racing license by NORBA. The NORBA Official at the event may record the upgrade of a rider to Sport or to Expert. The official will then contact the NORBA Region Manager to record the change. A rider may also contact NORBA or the NORBA Region Manager by email, in writing, or online to change categories.

Beginner racers must move to the appropriate Sport category after placing in the top five in five races. Failure to do so may result in license suspension.

Sport riders may move up to the expert category after two top five finishes by presenting an upgrade request and a resume to a NORBA official or to NORBA. Sport riders must advance to the appropriate Expert category after placing in the top five in five races. Failure to do so may result in license suspension.

But the question is if they have a day license, they aren't bound by those 5 top 5 finish rules and upgrade/downgrade rules, correct?

DH Diva · Jul 17, 2006

robdamanii said:
But the question is if they have a day license, they aren't bound by those 5 top 5 finish rules and upgrade/downgrade rules, correct?

If you are an annual expert license holder, I'm almost positive it's against the rules to buy a day license and race sport. Your still intentionally racing out of your class, problem is that the promotors may not know that someone has a day license, and will let them race. Small races don't get monitored that close so people get away with it. If it's the same person doing this all the time, you might consider saying something to the promotor.

DH Diva · Jul 17, 2006

weimie said:
I think that's the way around the upgrade/downgrade rules.

It's a way to get around it because it's hard to catch, but if she were caught (ie, someone complains), she still could face disciplinary action by USA cycling.

The other thing is that you are never allowed to hold two NORBA licenses in different racing categories for the same discipline, so yet another reason it's a violation.

altagirl · Jul 17, 2006

It depends on the motivation.

One of the guys I know just downgraded to sport because he was just wrecking himself on the expert course. Older guy - why should you have to kill yourself to race? He got permission and they let him race sport.

Personally, I've been semi-injured this year and just not ready to handle expert courses again yet. My doc said that a hard wreck could put me back at needing surgery again and it's not worth it. My husband has been pushing me to drop down to Sport and race, but I'd feel like a sandbagger. Yet - it does kindof suck to not be able to race at all.

I've just done a Super-D (where there are no classes anyway) so NORBA let me just do a day license since there's no class involved. But it sucks that you have to buy an annual license to just do a race or two at the end of the season to race Expert. They should run for 12 months, not just the current year.

amydalayna · Jul 17, 2006

that is a very good point. Some expert courses are just too hard for some people.
I wouldn't mind racing expert at some events, but I just could never do it at N*. I have NEVER been able to safely ride that course on my best day.
I feel bad because there first race I did at N* I was pleading with this expert racer to not downgrade to sport that day. I didn't want her to totally destroy me. She did race expert and it was bad.... She's a great racer, but some expert courses are just too dangerous for some.

altagirl · Jul 17, 2006

Yeah - Pushing people to race a course they don't feel safe riding doesn't seem like the right answer either. I can't think of a race weekend where at least one person I know didn't get injured with something serious enough for a hospital visit.

But I agree - people staying in a lower class just to win ruin it for everyone. I did one XC race a few months after I learned to ride - half of the beginners were sponsored (!) and the one who won was bragging how she hadn't lost a race in years. WTF? I don't know how she was getting around the rules... but it didn't make me particularly interested in racing XC again.

I personally have not run into many people sandbagging in DH. If anything, I upgraded faster than I should have. I bumped up to Expert my first year because there was often no one else racing beginner or sport women. I felt like there was no point paying to race myself, so I just upgraded to Expert and got my butt kicked for a while.

Snacks · Jul 17, 2006

There is a woman that races sport in the NW and kicks everyone's ass by at least over a minute every race:eviltongu

She was complaining one race this year that she crashed on her race run, but still won by only 20 seconds :rolleyes:

I agree, there are some expert courses that are much more difficult than the sport course, but if you are kicking everyone's ass, it's time to challenge yourself and step up.

DH Diva · Jul 17, 2006

It's a tough situation when issues like this come up. There are always special circumstances, like upgrading too soon and not being ready, getting back into racing after being hurt, ect. People can formally downgrade if these things come up. But if you're able bodied, and upgraded to the expert category that's where you race. If this chick wanted to race sport she should have forfitted her expert license and done it legit. Yo-yoing back and forth when ever you feel like it is crap. If your racing the season as an expert.....stay in expert.

I personally don't agree either with racing in a lower category while your injured or recovering from injury either. If your screwed up that bad, formally downgrade and work your way back up, or take some time off. There's nothing wrong with that. Think about how the girl who got second in sport felt at the race Weimei is talking about here? For whatever reason, someone raced out of class and took away her big moment. I couldn't do that to somebody, and I should wouldn't feel very proud telling people I won the sport state champs when I was actually an expert racer. It just seems kinda skeezy to me. But this is just my own opinion, based heavily on my personal experiences and struggles.

stephanie · Jul 17, 2006

Sad that some folks need justification that they are "good" by wiping everyone up at the races.

stephanie · Jul 17, 2006

I think you need to look at your times in comparison to the category above you....

Because...let's say you race a bunch of local races or only have a few competitors, and keep killing the competition...if you upgrade you might be in over your head.

It's helpful, if you do a National level race or something like MSC, to check your times with the class above...do you fall at the top, middle, or bottom of that class? If you would be dead last almost every time, you might not be ready to move up. If you fall in the bottom half, then you might be ready.

Ultimately, only you know when it's time.

stephanie · Jul 17, 2006

I think you need to look at your times in comparison to the category above you....

Because...let's say you race a bunch of local races or only have a few competitors, and keep killing the competition...if you upgrade you might be in over your head.

It's helpful, if you do a National level race or something like MSC, to check your times with the class above...do you fall at the top, middle, or bottom of that class? If you would be dead last almost every time, you might not be ready to move up. If you fall in the bottom half, then you might be ready.

Ultimately, only you know when it's time.

stephanie · Jul 17, 2006

I think you need to look at your times in comparison to the category above you....

Because...let's say you race a bunch of local races or only have a few competitors, and keep killing the competition...if you upgrade you might be in over your head.

It's helpful, if you do a National level race or something like MSC, to check your times with the class above...do you fall at the top, middle, or bottom of that class? If you would be dead last almost every time, you might not be ready to move up. If you fall in the bottom half, then you might be ready.

Ultimately, only you know when it's time.

stephanie · Jul 17, 2006

I think you need to look at your times in comparison to the category above you....

Because...let's say you race a bunch of local races or only have a few competitors, and keep killing the competition...if you upgrade you might be in over your head.

It's helpful, if you do a National level race or something like MSC, to check your times with the class above...do you fall at the top, middle, or bottom of that class? If you would be dead last almost every time, you might not be ready to move up. If you fall in the bottom half, then you might be ready.

Ultimately, only you know when it's time.

stephanie · Jul 17, 2006

Dang...sorry about the quadruple post...my computer freaked out for a minute there

douglas · Jul 17, 2006

to race expert you are required to have a full license (no one day's), so NORBA is almost creating sandbagging in the sport class...expert level people that only race once or twice a year have a choice pay race reg fee & $5 for sport (and sandbag), or race reg fee & $60 for expert

plus norba does not enforce moving up, you actually have to request to be moved up

AND yes, one day lic's follow the 5 top 5's, 3 top 3's must move up rule w/the exception of if you are in a series, then you can wait til the end of the series to move up.

altagirl · Jul 17, 2006

stephanie said:
I think you need to look at your times in comparison to the category above you....

I agree, but jumping from Sport to Expert often means that you're racing a 100% different course, and therefore comparing times doesn't mean anything.

That, and back when I moved up to Expert, there weren't any national races in Utah, so I didn't know what a National course even looked like compared to what I was used to in our local races. So basically, I went on the advice of my coach, who said - you can make it down the Expert course? (This was on Moab Rim) Good job. You're racing expert. End of story.

Then I went out to Durango the next year and saw that big drop and went HOLY CRAP what was I thinking... Took me another year to get up the guts to do that one.

stephanie · Jul 17, 2006

altagirl said:

I agree, but jumping from Sport to Expert often means that you're racing a 100% different course, and therefore comparing times doesn't mean anything.

Click to expand...

altagirl said:
That, and back when I moved up to Expert, there weren't any national races in Utah, so I didn't know what a National course even looked like compared to what I was used to in our local races. So basically, I went on the advice of my coach, who said - you can make it down the Expert course? (This was on Moab Rim) Good job. You're racing expert. End of story. Then I went out to Durango the next year and saw that big drop and went HOLY CRAP what was I thinking... Took me another year to get up the guts to do that one.

You are absolutely right...most of the courses are different. I totally blanked on that one.

You go girl! I've seen pictures of that drop....NO WAY!

Yeah, the same thing happened to me...I was sport at all the local races last spring and then moved to expert just in time for the Deer Valley national. What a wake up call, but I'm glad I moved up. It really made me get my head together (though there are lots of times when I'm "impressed" by the technicality of the courses...that's code for "they still scare me"!)

goodtobeIrie · Jul 17, 2006

douglas said:
to race expert you are required to have a full license (no one day's), so NORBA is almost creating sandbagging in the sport class...expert level people that only race once or twice a year have a choice pay race reg fee & $5 for sport (and sandbag), or race reg fee & $60 for expert

I agree...I tried to race expert at Sea Otter for my first race and they wouldn't let me...I'd rather get my ass kicked in expert rather than sandbag on sport...but they wouldn't let me...so I had missed the sport practices and said F U to the races and went to the aquarium instead...I understand maybe for guys because there are so many...but they definitely discouraged me from racing in any of their races because of their illogic...

their rules suck!!!

N8 v2.0 · Jul 18, 2006

NORBA rules - the rest of the story....

For mandatory upgrading purposes, classes must consist of the following competitors:

Class: Men/Women

Senior: 20/15
Master age 30-39: 20/15
Master age 40-49: 15/10
Master age 50+: 5/5

In those classes that require a minimum of ten competitors, the top three in the class are counted for upgrading. In those classes that require five, the top finisher will be counted for upgrading. Upgrades will be based on a rider's placings in his category over a calendar year.

DH Diva · Jul 18, 2006

weimie said:
I have been told that in DH if you're an Expert racer and you don't want to buy a yearly license, Norba will make you race in the Sport class. So, Norba is making it legal to sandbag in the Sport class if you don't want to spend to money to purchase a yearly license and race where you should be racing.

Now that sucks!

I will for sure upgrade next year....at least, when on the off chance I win but most likely lose, I know it will be legitimate :wonky2:

But, this girl had been racing expert class the rest of the year though right?? So she already had an annual expert license and then bought a one day sport license to race the state champs? What did they say about that scenario?

altagirl · Jul 18, 2006

N8 said:
NORBA rules - the rest of the story....

For mandatory upgrading purposes, classes must consist of the following competitors:

Class: Men/Women

Senior: 20/15
Master age 30-39: 20/15
Master age 40-49: 15/10
Master age 50+: 5/5

In those classes that require a minimum of ten competitors, the top three in the class are counted for upgrading. In those classes that require five, the top finisher will be counted for upgrading. Upgrades will be based on a rider's placings in his category over a calendar year.

That pretty much means the for women, there's pretty much no such thing as a mandatory upgrade. I've NEVER had that many competitors in a class. (Not even close).

DH Diva · Jul 18, 2006

So, I called USA Cycling about this issue. I spoke with the technical director who is the rule book guru (Shawn Ferrell). According to him, it is a violation of the rules to race in a sport event if you are an expert license holder, regardless if you purchased a day license or annual sport license to do so. If you would like something done about it, he suggested contacting the NORBA official for that particular race series, along with the promotor, because she did not win the sport state title as she was in violation of USA Cyclings licensing rules. I hope this info helps.

amydalayna · Jul 18, 2006

N8 said:
NORBA rules - the rest of the story....

For mandatory upgrading purposes, classes must consist of the following competitors:

Class: Men/Women

Senior: 20/15
Master age 30-39: 20/15
Master age 40-49: 15/10
Master age 50+: 5/5

has anyone here ever even had 15 girls in their class???

DH Diva · Jul 18, 2006

amydalayna said:
has anyone here ever even had 15 girls in their class???

For women's DH upgrades, they use a couple different things to determine if a finish can be used for an upgrade request and they never abide by the 15 competitors rule.

Often, they will look at the entire field (all age groups in your class) and see where your time placed overall.

They also might compare your time to the category above you (if you raced on the same course, with similar conditions). This really only works for the upgrade from Expert to Pro, or events like Sea Otter where everyone races the same course.

altagirl · Jul 18, 2006

amydalayna said:
has anyone here ever even had 15 girls in their class???

I think the most I've ever had was 8.

TreeSaw · Jul 18, 2006

Sandbaggers make me angry! I have no respect for someone who wins in such an instance. I hope that justice can be served!

Sandbagging

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