Intense M6 or SC V10 2008?
Santa Cruz 2008
- Thread starter GPERKINS
- Start date
Wow, SC could not be more off mark with that last comment. I'll be curious to see how they justify their own designs taking that sort of approach to suspension design.
It’s what marketing guys, get paid to do: Make up a simple, believable reason why a product is superior. And then repeat those reasons over and over until they become accepted as common knowledge despite the lack of real justification.
that could not be more correct, you see most bike companys these days tell you a bunch of bull crap and here you are in your head thinking, Hmmmmmmm that sounds really good, I bet that will make me such a faster rider, we all catch or selves doing it because we all want to become faster riders and in our head we want to become the faster rider out there, there for we belive what companys tell us
that could not be more correct, you see most bike companys these days tell you a bunch of bull crap and here you are in your head thinking, Hmmmmmmm that sounds really good, I bet that will make me such a faster rider, we all catch or selves doing it because we all want to become faster riders and in our head we want to become the faster rider out there, there for we belive what companys tell us
seems like this joe guy from santa cruz is a marketing guy not some tech or engineer, i mean, from his own posting it should be the only conclusion to draw.
santacruz webpage said:
there we go, thats exactly what santa cruz is about.
Wow, why all the hate for carbon?
we're fighting over things across the internet. most people on here, get their info from here. and not real world experience. people start to believe weird stuff
steve peat rode an orange pretty fast. he also rides his vpp pretty fast. the reason fast guys go fast is because they arent on the internet all the time measuring how short their dicks are, they are out riding their bikes and not touching their brakes.
edit- i'd say how a shock works has more to do with the bike going vrooom than how the shock is driven. the hondas are pretty simple but the shocks that the pivot pushes on are pretty not-simple. a well tuned single pivot simple bike will work better than a poorly set up bike with a billion linkages and doo hickery going on. what this has to do with anything, i dont know. but i know this thread is pretty silly anyways.
edit- i'd say how a shock works has more to do with the bike going vrooom than how the shock is driven. the hondas are pretty simple but the shocks that the pivot pushes on are pretty not-simple. a well tuned single pivot simple bike will work better than a poorly set up bike with a billion linkages and doo hickery going on. what this has to do with anything, i dont know. but i know this thread is pretty silly anyways.
and we have a winner, thread closed
Well, that's not the whole picture. The fast guys are actually on the 'net measuring how long their dicks. It's just perspective, really.
hmmmm, that was remarkably candid in a lot of ways... will be interesting to see where he's going with it, especially with regards to pedalling and braking.
V10's work great............having just come from Northstar and actually touched, rode and bounced on the NEW V10 multiple times now, I think it will be a great bike AGAIN...........The M6 looks like a new V10................well duh.........if you know your bikes then you know why that is.
Dont knock it if you havent ridden it......
Oh yea..................Steve Peat would be fast on a huffy.........
Dont knock it if you havent ridden it......
Oh yea..................Steve Peat would be fast on a huffy.........
Totally, Santa Cruz and Specialized have embodied this approach to selling suspension for years now.
I'm not sure that Joe is saying straight up that "axle path is not important". Obviously axle path is a major part of how and why a suspension functions. It will be interesting to read the rest of this as it comes together. I found it interesting that pivot around the BB is referenced, as this setup gives as much pedal feedback as many other layouts. Not that there is anything wrong with referencing it, its just kind of an arbitrary number. There's no real relevance to it over some other random pivot location.
yeah....i totally agree......indoctrinate the lemmings and you'll succeed(reminds me of noam chomsky a little bit)....that's the idea that scb specialized trek and gt and giant all seem to use......all the big name companies....i like your approach better.....quietly design and refine an incredible frame and let the results, reputation and word of mouth sell the bike.....no techno jargon, flash websites and "cutting edge" advertisements
oh yeah, heres an example of what i mentioned above......
do carbon fiber UPPER LINKS save that much weight?????......i'd love to know exactly how much lighter they are than the AL ones......i'm guessing 30 grams per side.....it doesn't save a noteworthy amount of weight, but the idiots think it does...how about getting rid of that whale dong of a top tube/seat tube/1298310238 extra welds....oh wait, the idiots think that looks cool, so that's yet another marketing ploy
do carbon fiber UPPER LINKS save that much weight?????......i'd love to know exactly how much lighter they are than the AL ones......i'm guessing 30 grams per side.....it doesn't save a noteworthy amount of weight, but the idiots think it does...how about getting rid of that whale dong of a top tube/seat tube/1298310238 extra welds....oh wait, the idiots think that looks cool, so that's yet another marketing ploy
It would seem that SC is preparing to phase out VPP for the higher profit, lower maintenance, less flex, easier to produce single pivot? Just a guess.
its what America is coming to these days, doing things the easier to way to save them money, Losers
Best BJ ever.
yeah, funny thing is, i don't ride his bikes, and the post knocks santa cruz and others more than anything.....but that's cool....have fun on your banshee.....HAHAHAHA
What's your beef with Santa Cruz? Maybe you've ridden enough of their VPP bikes to share a comparative review with us. Please, enlighten me.
You'd think after 4 years on this site and becoming a half-decent downhill racer I'd change my username to something more fitting. However, the blowhard comments never get old.
Enjoy your lift access riding.
Joe is not a marketing guy, and DW is on track in suggesting that perhaps that article should not be taken so literally. In any case the cynicism pouring out of some people here is at once sad and truly laughable, but I guess it is also nothing new.
I smell viral...
What about jack-shaft layouts?.... chain growth due to axle/bb distance is not relevant
Make up and repeat... that's what they've done here with this article... how many of you now believe that axle path isn't important?
don't believe the hype...
What about jack-shaft layouts?.... chain growth due to axle/bb distance is not relevant
Make up and repeat... that's what they've done here with this article... how many of you now believe that axle path isn't important?
don't believe the hype...
Are you kidding me? DW link is the most aggressively marketed suspension design out there! That doesn't speak anything of whether it does or doesn't work well, but the DW-link website is exactly that, a flash website full of techno-jargon!
To all those pointing fingers at different companies and crying "Hype!" as though you are surprised: Guess what, large companies employ marketing people to spread the word about their product. Imagine that. It doesn't matter if their product is good or bad, if they have competition, they all try to set themselves apart by putting a marketing spin on their product. Welcome to America.
Please elaborate on what you mean by this. The only magazine review of a Sunday I can recall was in Dirt mag last year and I'm pretty sure the only bikes reviewed by US mags have been the MkIII and Azure - not the greatest of reviews I might add. Whereas the VPP bikes have been reviewed endlessly. That is a pretty big part of the marketing that goes into the bikes as well as advertisements - which you see far less of from IH compared to other brands.
Whoa...this thread got way weird.
VPP is great. I can't believe all this anti-Santa Cruz banter. Ride a Nomad then ride any other 6" bike and tell me VPP is hype. I'd have to put my e-foot in your e-ass.
VPP is great. I can't believe all this anti-Santa Cruz banter. Ride a Nomad then ride any other 6" bike and tell me VPP is hype. I'd have to put my e-foot in your e-ass.
Wait a second, isnt the VPP pretty similar to the dw-link. By what i can tell, they both operate in roughly the same manner. It seems Santa Cruz did some thinking to get around the patents, and made it 10" of wheel travel. So anyone who is saying that Santa Cruz is wrong, go look at the DW site and your Sunday and realize that they are basically the same structure, hyper-marketed, Taiwanese made, virtual pivot point DH frames.
Hahahahahahaha
Damn, this thing went on a tangent... I guess I'm partly to blame and I am definitely sorry.
If people want to talk about marketing in the bike industry I think thats a great topic, but lets put it in another thread because this one is about the 08 Santa Cruz line. Personally I feel that the bikes are pretty rad and the changes were pretty well thought out IMO. That's why SC remains one of my favorite brands of all time. Good people backing up good product.
OG ripper's got it dialed in his post too, I don't know that Joe meant this stuff to be taken so literally.
If people want to talk about marketing in the bike industry I think thats a great topic, but lets put it in another thread because this one is about the 08 Santa Cruz line. Personally I feel that the bikes are pretty rad and the changes were pretty well thought out IMO. That's why SC remains one of my favorite brands of all time. Good people backing up good product.
OG ripper's got it dialed in his post too, I don't know that Joe meant this stuff to be taken so literally.
sweet, I guess today is opposite day, nobody told me... :biggrin:
Basically, the center of your rear wheel can’t move much more than 20mm in distance from the center of the bottom bracket or your pedals feel like they are getting tugged around a lot. It has taken some time, but this is something known and understood to us, and it should be known to everyone else making suspension bikes. .............................. Our V10 has more than 30mm of chain growth, but since it’s meant to be ridden with a big ring all the time, pedal feedback isn’t such a big issue.
UNLESS you lift the chain to the eff bb/pivot area. then you can do
as much reward movement as you want. my bikes pull 100mm of
chain. you can't feel it in the pedals but its chain growth. this is more
closed minded bike design IMO.
Well, this guy probably sat down with a beer in his hand one night and pounded this out. It seems like sort of a general idea that's being put out there for your average bike buyer with out all the "except whens" or "unlesses" that would confuse a lot of people.
Ridemonkey is a tough crowd for this sort of stuff.
Ridemonkey is a tough crowd for this sort of stuff.
"Basically the same" in the broad sense that they are aluminum full suspension DH bikes with multi-link configurations, but within the realm of somewhat subtle differences in the genre they are not the same, not at all. Also, some are US made, and the V10 has been in existence longer than the Sunday - the V10 is not a compromised response to the Sunday as you seem to imply.
As for "hyper-marketed," like others here I have to ask: So what? Marketing is part of selling bikes, and it also helps support the bike media and race scene. I don't have a problem with marketing - I like to think I can see through the BS. More importantly, it's great that there are people able to make a living riding bikes, taking pictures, making movies, and writing about it - and all of that is funded at least in part by marketing.
The nomad being a good trail bike is even more hype than anything ever associated with a VPP system:biggrin:
That being cuz its true?!
Nope........
