[General Lee]

Funny you mention DW. He used this forum as marketing tool (actually so much that this was known as DWmonkey) and when it didn't work out as well anymore because people called BS on some of his claims he left. Guerilla marketing in forums is a double-edged sword.

Pinkbike and Vital have evolved into far better forums than they were a few years ago. Used to be a press release and some basic info released and off to forumland to fill in the details and put out the fires. Now just drop a slideshow, maybe some video, then grab the popcorn and watch the drama from a safe distance.


He also had/has some bigger projects and a few lawsuits on his plate. No big deal.

 

[iRider]

Yeah because relatively simple physics and chassis handling design = marketing.

Having seen one of his frames measured accurately, in-person, on a jig (by a completely unrelated third party), and then inspected the resulting curves for axle path, L/R, and antisquat - I'm sorry to break it to you but it did exactly what it said on the box.

I am not arguing that. But you have to admit that if only he is on here and praising his designs as the ultimate suspension and none of the other manufacturers that have different philosophies, it makes this, what is supposed to be a consumer board, a DW show. On MTBR every brand has its own sub-forum where the manufacturer can interact with the customers and lots make good use of this. Why do you think it is that e.g. Intense and Banshee don't communicate with users on here? Maybe it was the omnipresence of DW???
So yes, I am happy that industry people are on here. But it should be a variety of different ones, each explaining their designs w/o bashing on others!

 

[Huck Banzai]

I am not arguing that. But you have to admit that if only he is on here and praising his designs as the ultimate suspension and none of the other manufacturers that have different philosophies, it makes this, what is supposed to be a consumer board, a DW show. On MTBR every brand has its own sub-forum where the manufacturer can interact with the customers and lots make good use of this. Why do you think it is that e.g. Intense and Banshee don't communicate with users on here? Maybe it was the omnipresence of DW???
So yes, I am happy that industry people are on here. But it should be a variety of different ones, each explaining their designs w/o bashing on others!

I dont see Joe bashing, or talking/praising his suspension designs in this case. Hes making claims of improvements to the material and structural design and pointing out features separate from the suspension itself. He did reference a commonly compared frame/bike's weight and claimed it is BS; I defer to Sicklines etc to actually weigh them objectively.

If a 9.9 (my assumption to what he is referring to) is 8.2lbs versus the claimed 7.2 -- that would be a sweet burn!

Suspension designs are subject to preference to a degree, the claims he's discussing are not.

As for DW, he mostly responded to attacks and misinformation (mine included) and had a sum positive impact IMhO

Focus grasshopper!

 

[General Lee]

Why do you think it is that e.g. Intense and Banshee don't communicate with users on here? Maybe it was the omnipresence of DW???
So yes, I am happy that industry people are on here. But it should be a variety of different ones, each explaining their designs w/o bashing on others!

Clearly it was the omnipotence of DW driving them away

Or they came to the conclusion some time ago that their efforts could be far better spent elsewhere. Case in point, Banshee (since you mentioned them specifically). They did a huge 20+ slideshow/audio/video on Vital for the Rune 2 release in August, and there is another series coming shortly for a new project (I was at their factory last week). Probably they've decided that is the best route for them, rather than coming here and getting repeatedly raked over the coals about bushing issues by the same 2 or 3 people on every occasion. As if anyone in their front office has extra time anyway...

 

[iRider]

Or they came to the conclusion some time ago that their efforts could be far better spent elsewhere. Case in point, Banshee (since you mentioned them specifically).

They are also active on MTBR. Which was my point earlier. Why do they shy away from RM?

 

[dump]

As for DW, he mostly responded to attacks and misinformation (mine included) and had a sum positive impact IMhO

Focus grasshopper!

Definitely. Having been on this forum for a long damn time, remembering the days pre evil srs, I'd say all the manufactures that dared to engage have had a positive influence on this forum, and dw in particular.

 

[ianjenn]

The build price is steep I assume it comes with Enve, Formulas, all the top snuff correct? $10K+ for a bikes is a ton of snuff. Good thing about SC is they do gradual changes typically this carbon jump is the exception.

Question is when will the UCI decide bikes cannot be less than say 32LBS complete like they did with road bikes around the 15LBS mark.....I have a feeling it will happen.

 

[blackohio]

They are also active on MTBR. Which was my point earlier. Why do they shy away from RM?

Probably because this forum is full of techno wizards and douchebags. How many times are you going to argue with people that think they know what they're talking about before you decide to concentrate on more important things.

 

[louevilcyclist]

The build price is steep I assume it comes with Enve, Formulas, all the top snuff correct? $10K+ for a bikes is a ton of snuff. Good thing about SC is they do gradual changes typically this carbon jump is the exception.

Question is when will the UCI decide bikes cannot be less than say 32LBS complete like they did with road bikes around the 15LBS mark.....I have a feeling it will happen.

Santa Cruz has a couple build options. The ones around the 10k mark have the Enve wheelsets which is what jacks the price up. The non Enve build kit option is about 2k less.

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/v10-5-carbon/#13pricing.php

 

[norbar]

Session is claimed 7.2lbs versus 7.9lbs claimed for the v10.5; both with RC4 & Coils.

My experience with my own v10c and knock/squeeze tests is that the v10 sounds/feels like its solid (literally) where the 9.9 sounds like a plastic soda can, and the Carbon Fury you can acutally see and feel flex shoul you squeeze the seatstays or mainframe.

I conced being an SC 'Whore' but its well earned -- and the fact that its still on price par with top alu compared to Spec and Trek's ludicrous pricing (4000, 4400) plus the insane warranty and replacement program -- SC for the wiiiiiiiiiiin.

Isn't santa pure thick carbon vs a lots of kevlar in fury? That is why the fury may be easier to flex under the fingers as for sure it is burlier.


Also antidote lifeline carbon with the new carbon rear should also be super light. The old weight is with alu rear. New one should also be around 6lbs w/o shock

 

[kidwoo]

Probably because this forum is full of techno wizards and douchebags. How many times are you going to argue with people that think they know what they're talking about before you decide to concentrate on more important things.

Given I constitute a healthy percentage of the douchebaggery here, but man......have you actually READ much of what's on MTBR? This place doesn't hold a candle to it.

I miss dw too. Both for his recommended reading lists and also because I had a drinking game going for the phrase "lightest, most technically advanced chainguide on the planet". I was straight wasted for like 5 years.

 

[mattmatt86]

I don't care how light it actually is, how light does it ride?

 

[Dogboy]

Probably because this forum is full of techno wizards and douchebags. How many times are you going to argue with people that think they know what they're talking about before you decide to concentrate on more important things.

I'd say partly this and partly because the MTBR Manufacturer forums offer a very specific place to post. A good example is posting the new V10 on here and getting a bunch of haters versus the Santa Cruz forum on MTBR where people are generally stoked on the bike.

 

[Christiaan]

Doesn't the Antidote have a 73mm BB shell, not really a DH frame imho

Isn't santa pure thick carbon vs a lots of kevlar in fury? That is why the fury may be easier to flex under the fingers as for sure it is burlier.


Also antidote lifeline carbon with the new carbon rear should also be super light. The old weight is with alu rear. New one should also be around 6lbs w/o shock

 

[tabletop84]

actual weights of 9.9 and the old V10:

http://gewichte.mtb-news.de/product-4023/trek-full-suspension-session-9-9

2,8kg in Large including all plastic guards and axle

http://fotos.mtb-news.de/p/839102

http://fotos.mtb-news.de/p/839102

3,35kg in Medium with headset-cups but without axle

So if they shaved off ~700g the frames should be on par in the same size.

 

[ianjenn]

Santa Cruz has a couple build options. The ones around the 10k mark have the Enve wheelsets which is what jacks the price up. The non Enve build kit option is about 2k less.

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/v10-5-carbon/#13pricing.php

Yeah the $10K build is below decent specs on it

REAR DER: Shimano M820 SS (Saint) 10sp

FRONT DER:

SHIFTERS: Shimano M820 SS (Saint) 10sp

CRANKSET: SRAM Descendent 165mm 38 tooth 10spd - Includes: E13 LG1 chain guide

BOTTOM BRACKET: Integrated

CASSETTE: Shimano 5700, 11-28 (105) 10spd

CHAIN: Shimano HG 74 10spd

BRAKES: Shimano M820 Saint w/ 203mm front 180mm rear Ice-Tech rotors

BARS: Easton Havoc 35 800mm

STEM: Easton Havoc 35 Direct Mount 50mm stem

GRIPS: Lizard Skin Peaty lock on

HEADSET: Cane Creek 40

SEAT POST: Thomson Elite

SADDLE: WTB Silverado SLT

WHEELS: ENVE Composites DH Rims laced to DT 240 hubs w/ DT 14/15 gauge spokes, brass nipples (20mm front hub)

TIRES: Maxxis Minion DHF dual ply 2.5 wire

TUBES: Maxxis 1.2mm tubes

 

[Dogboy]

So if they shaved off ~700g the frames should be on par in the same size.

But of course you're guessing, right? Because you didn't actually weigh them yourself.

 

[jonKranked]

So basically all we've established here is that ridemonkey is pretty much the 4chan of mountain biking

 

[norbar]

Doesn't the Antidote have a 73mm BB shell, not really a DH frame imho

They offer lifetime warranty on it. Saw a local pinner on the new carbon one and he was killing it. Still only a handfull reviews but the 73mm is annoying but it doesn't disqualify the frame for me.

Also what's with the recent weave of RM self flagellation? Everybody was drunk and no one noticed because we were all to concerned about sounding smart. It was fun. Stop ruining it.

 

[boogenman]

64 World Cup podiums!

 

[OGRipper]

SCB should take a new V10 to Wisconsin and weigh it on Trek's scale. Then they can claim it's even lighter!

Joe is right, this is a tough crowd. There will always be trolls who dismiss any real information as marketing, as if marketing itself is always bad. It's not. Even worse are the paranoid conspiracy guys who think every reasonably successful bike company exists purely to screw their customers year after year.

Good marketing gets people stoked on new stuff while delivering the facts. The new bike is rad and I love seeing Joe and other insiders chime in here with the real skinny. It's gotta be hard to resist the urge to set people straight, especially when you are as passionate about what you do as these guys. Still, I don't know why they do it. In their shoes I'd probably stop posting and get back to making great bikes while the rest of us continue our global e-wank off.

And that algorithm thing? Pure gold.

 

[tabletop84]

But of course you're guessing, right? Because you didn't actually weigh them yourself.

 

[jackalope]

 

[Jeremy R]

SCB should take a new V10 to Wisconsin and weigh it on Trek's scale. Then they can claim it's even lighter!

Joe is right, this is a tough crowd. There will always be trolls who dismiss any real information as marketing, as if marketing itself is always bad. It's not. Even worse are the paranoid conspiracy guys who think every reasonably successful bike company exists purely to screw their customers year after year.

Good marketing gets people stoked on new stuff while delivering the facts. The new bike is rad and I love seeing Joe and other insiders chime in here with the real skinny. It's gotta be hard to resist the urge to set people straight, especially when you are as passionate about what you do as these guys. Still, I don't know why they do it. In their shoes I'd probably stop posting and get back to making great bikes while the rest of us continue our global e-wank off.

And that algorithm thing? Pure gold.

Santa Cruz should pay you more than your agreed upon Quarter per post for this response. You really out did yourself. They should try to fit a silver dollar in there!

 

[Trekrules]

Why do they put a Descendent crank on a $10,000 build? wtf

 

[Huck Banzai]

Why do they put a Descendent crank on a $10,000 build? wtf

I like the build except for that (SRAM DIE!) and I irrationally hate everything WTB (short, stupid story)

 

[Tetreault]

just because they didnt post their calculations on its strengths doesnt mean its not true....but it could also be their lightest and strongest DH frame and if so, theyd be 100% correct and youd be a silly goose

As i said in a previous post, i actually like it when brands put quantitative measures to their previous models as a way of showing the improvement, Santa Cruz did this when comparing the carbon nomad to the alu version. As i said, marketing it by saying the lightest strongest santa cruz to date, or XX% lighter and XX% stronger are both noble ways of displaying what is actually going on with these redesigns.

Santa cruz isn't the only one that i have a problem with, anyone that says THE BEST ______ to some form is full of ****.

Tetreault, your little picture seems to reflect your posting style.

This is true.

The frame that some people have pointed to as being lighter, I bought and weighed six weeks ago. It weighed 8.2 lbs with a 450# spring.

I understand that it is in bad standing to name other brands publicly for your comparison, but if you are telling me that the two frames in the same size with the same spring weight and shock were weighed side by side with all other things equal (no axle, no extra, add on, no headset, ect) I'll take your claim as indeed truth as i have no possible way of personally coming in contact with both of these frames for a real time comparison.

We have a considerable bank of other frame testing data that I've been collecting over the years - and I'm confident in the claim. This is my job after all, I spend a lot of time on this. Prove me wrong and I'll eat crow

As what i said before, i think it is distasteful to proclaim "X" in absolute terms, If you have been able to test all of the new gen carbon DH bikes out there, DemoC, WilsonC, Undead, LifelineC, FuryC, Session 9.9, and came up with a formula to demonstrate that in absolute terms that the V10.5 was infact the strongest then i would have no whims about it. Until that day, i will always be a skeptic.

I am not denying that this frame is absolutely gorgeous, probably a blast to ride, and structurally superior to many other frames out there. I'm just tired of brands trying to force the kool-aid down my throat, someone needs to be out there to pull people back from their zombie-esque response to new ****.

 

[kidwoo]

Not only is it the lightest and strongest, I heard it's also the tastiest.


Joe, which is more steaky, the new v10 or one of those mondrakers?

 

[jonKranked]

Not only is it the lightest and strongest, I heard it's also the tastiest.


Joe, which is more steaky, the new v10 or one of those mondrakers?

would this imply that frames from smaller / boutique builders would be "gamey"?

 

[ianjenn]

would this imply that frames from smaller / boutique builders would be "gamey"?

"free range organic"

 

[kidwoo]

would this imply that frames from smaller / boutique builders would be "gamey"?

Depends on how quickly you get them out of heat treatment. As with taco stands, not all are created equal.

 

[dilzy]

All that testing, design and manufacturing prowess (and I do like just about everything about SCs carbon bikes), but STILL STILL! a ****ing derailleur.


No thanks.

 

[General Lee]

All that testing, design and manufacturing prowess (and I do like just about everything about SCs carbon bikes), but STILL STILL! a ****ing derailleur.


No thanks.

Does anyone else think the gearbox caucus is just banging their head against the wall at this point? Interest by manufacturers peaked about 3 years ago and didn't really go anywhere. Modern DH drivetrains are light, solid and dependable (though some people can break anything riding down the street), and doesn't limit creativity of designing a unique frame/suspension design. Besides Zerode and the odd boutique manufacturer I'd say the gearbox is dead at least for several more seasons if not for good. What $$ anyone has is going to carbon and 650b development.

 

[kidwoo]

^^I know I started caring a LOT less once I put a shimano clutch derailleur on my bike.

 

[gemini2k]

^^I know I started caring a LOT less once I put a shimano clutch derailleur on my bike.

Does it really help that much on a DH bike?

 

[William42]

well, as with pretty much every previous V10, i'm sure it'll ride incredibly well.

But seriously, 10k dollars, full carbon frame/wheels, full saint..except the ****ing cranks? I don't think there is anybody in the world that likes sram cranks as much as shimano. If you're going to go all out with a bike (and I think most people think of the carbon v10 with the pimp build kit that costs over 10k as "all out" why suddenly cut corners on the cranks?

 

[Huck Banzai]

Depends on how quickly you get them out of heat treatment. As with taco stands, not all are created equal.

Wait, now you like taco's?


<run awaaaay>

 

[Bikael Molton]

well, as with pretty much every previous V10, i'm sure it'll ride incredibly well.

But seriously, 10k dollars, full carbon frame/wheels, full saint..except the ****ing cranks? I don't think there is anybody in the world that likes sram cranks as much as shimano. If you're going to go all out with a bike (and I think most people think of the carbon v10 with the pimp build kit that costs over 10k as "all out" why suddenly cut corners on the cranks?

If you are paying $10K for a complete bike, swapping out the cranks to taste is probably nothing to you. Seriously, Ridemonkies will bitch about anything.

 

[Lelandjt]

Someone needs to be out there to pull people back from their zombie-esque response to new ****.

No. And I doubt you're having any effect on people who are stoked on this frame, just e-arguing. If anything you and other skeptics benefit from "new sh¡t craving" cuz that's how lightly used recent stuff gets into the 2nd hand market.

 

[Tomasz]

With SC's reputation for building bomber carbon frames, this bad boy looks to be THE f*cking sh*t. After salivating over the test mule(s) at Whistler, it's going to so rad to get one for this season.

B*tching about the bike requiring a derailleur? Was that some kind of Onion-esque self parody? Next page, someone will complain about it not having 24" wheels or integrated dropper post.