[genpowell71]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134992,00.html


So we have Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia. Sounds like a good environment to breed terrorists. Maybe we went after the wrong arabs.

 

[Toshi]

it is no accident that osama bin laden is from saudi arabia

 

[valve bouncer]

General mate I hope you aren't just realising this now?

 

[fluff]

it is no accident that osama bin laden is from saudi arabia

It was planned? Are you sure?

 

[Andyman_1970]

It troubles me that we as a country are so "in bed" with the Saudi's. I know it essentially boils down to oil, but it still doesn't feel right to me.

 

[Tenchiro]

I posted a link to a website for their religious police here a while ago. Basically it was a form you could fill in to drop the dime on your unfaithful neighbors and associates.

Fascism at it's finest.

 

[ohio]

it still doesn't feel right to me.

glad to hear that moral compass of yours is still working. it doesn't feel right, because it isn't.

but right now it's more right than $20 gallons of gasoline and 3 mile lines to the Texaco station.

 

[Tenchiro]

Found it.

http://www.hesbah.com/disapprove.asp

Although I have yet to find a good arabic translator...

 

[Andyman_1970]

glad to hear that moral compass of yours is still working

Like it was ever broken.................

 

[genpowell71]

General mate I hope you aren't just realising this now?

I have known this since 96 when I was in Saudi Arabia when Khobar Towers was bombed. I knew all about it when we had Saudis come up to us and tell the gaurds that they were glad the buildings got bombed.

 

[valve bouncer]

It troubles me that we as a country are so "in bed" with the Saudi's. I know it essentially boils down to oil, but it still doesn't feel right to me.

I think perhaps where the left lets itself down a bit is to blame the problem of extremism in poverty. Of course that is a factor but more important is the helplessness a lot of people feel. That naturally comes back to the lack of representation people feel in the political process. Bin Laden is a classic example of this. What did he ever want for? Personal arse-wiper perhaps. Love? Definitely. Arguably the best thing the Allies did after WW2 (and I'm prepared to be shot down like an Iraqi Mig on this point) is to NOT exclude members of the erstwhile enemy in the post-war government. This has implications for Iraq now and by association Saudi Arabia. At this moment the coalition is seeing the Islamic element as part of the problem and not part of the solution. A widening of vision is needed I feel. Bush and co have this idea that what is now is what shall always be. I don't feel that, I feel things can change, history says that it is so. I hope so. I don't wanna my kids to grow up with this same feeeling of vague unease that I feel now.

 

[genpowell71]

Bin Laden is a perfect example of a Religious racist. He wants the world to bow down to Islam and the world to worship Allah. Screw Allah. I cant imagine worshipping a religion that treats women as property instead of equals (all you old school people who still think women are property keep yor thoughts to yourself). I cant understand why this religion while preaching equality to the world is perverted into a "cause" to go out and wage war on the infidel.

 

[nicklin]

Bin Laden is a perfect example of a Religious racist. He wants the world to bow down to Islam and the world to worship Allah. Screw Allah. I cant imagine worshipping a religion that treats women as property instead of equals (all you old school people who still think women are property keep yor thoughts to yourself). I cant understand why this religion while preaching equality to the world is perverted into a "cause" to go out and wage war on the infidel.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I posted a link to a website for their religious police here a while ago. Basically it was a form you could fill in to drop the dime on your unfaithful neighbors and associates.

Fascism at it's finest.

WORD!!!! a friend of mine was arrested in saudi arabia for wearing shorts (regular baggy ones) by the religious police on charges of indecency.

 

[genpowell71]

She should have known better than to do that in a muslim country. Did you notice when Katie Kouric was there that she wore long sleeves and pants with no makeup at all? Women even from other countries have no rights. They tried to make the women in the US military adher to thier poilcies. We responded by pulling all the unnesseccary women out of there. Like I said, where's the equality?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

She should have known better than to do that in a muslim country. Did you notice when Katie Kouric was there that she wore long sleeves and pants with no makeup at all? Women even from other countries have no rights. They tried to make the women in the US military adher to thier poilcies. We responded by pulling all the unnesseccary women out of there. Like I said, where's the equality?

lol. firstable. it wasnt a she. it was a guy called shaaz.

he was originally from india, but his folks lived in saudi arabia.i met him in college.

he was arrested one summer when he got to saudi arabia, as soon as he got off the plane.

from what i´ve read, and been told by some saudis in the US, its my impression that saudi arabia is a very fundamentalist country. and its not exactly the land of religious freedom your first post, ot fox news want the uninformed US-ers to believe.
and not only with women is the persecution.

 

[genpowell71]

You said his folks live there?

Thank you for making my point. He should have known better that to do that

Secondly, I HAVE (read back a few posts earlier) seen Saudi Arabia, and it is exactly as I described it. No religious freedom and no reason to ever think there ever will be.

 

[MikeD]

Bin Laden is a perfect example of a Religious racist. He wants the world to bow down to Islam and the world to worship Allah. Screw Allah. I cant imagine worshipping a religion that treats women as property instead of equals (all you old school people who still think women are property keep yor thoughts to yourself). I cant understand why this religion while preaching equality to the world is perverted into a "cause" to go out and wage war on the infidel.

This is the $100,000,000 question. Is Bin Laden after worldwide Islamic domination? Emotion says, "yes," but is it truly the case? Being a news-watching American, I always thought so...I mean, he's a psychotic hater of freedom and Islam is an exansionist religion, right?

Not necessarily. While Bin Laden has made overt offers to the US to convert to Islam, these are traditional statements made at the beginning of a defensive jihad...and he has explicit points about US foriegn policy he's trying to change...very rational demands from his point of view. He's also stated, overtly, that he's not going to try and force any Westerners to change their religion (though his offer stands.) Bin Laden is a man who has done everything he said he would do and said everything he was going to do, however terrible it may be for us. That leads to the distinct possibility that he's just trying to have the US and the west leave the Arab/Muslim world alone...

Two problems with that, though...appeasement hasn't worked with lots of people, say, Hitler, whose real agendas weren't what they said they were. Although Bin Laden's agenda, as he states, it is limited, well, is it? (I know lots of people-Nicklin, Burly- will say, "of course not," but after reading a CIA analyst in "Imperial Hubris," I have my doubts.)

Second, Bin Laden might not be the issue anymore. Plenty of other Islamists in the world, some of whom probably do have dreams of building a mosque on top of the ruins of the White House. However, I don't think most of those guys will get the support they need to make effective strikes against the US. People support Bin Laden because they agree with him; not too many people are interested in devoting themselves to destroying the US and killing Americans simply out of hate for America. It's America's policies they find most objectionable...if they didn't see themselves as victims of America, only the most loony...few and far between...would try to take a fight to our shores.

I find radical Islam in its most theocratic, misogynist form to be abhorrent...hell, I detest even most mild religion as practiced in public/social form, as a method of control rather than a relationship with God...but I'm not a proponent of the US trying to change every place in the world where we think sh1t is fvcked up. Plus, plenty of Islamic women look at the West's schizo relationship with women...co-equals on one hand, sex objects on the other...as a sideways form of exploitation, and are happier to wear their Burqua in what they see as fulfillment of God's law.

MD

 

[genpowell71]

I agree with you about the Radical Islam being the worst. But I dont think that we as the United States are trying to convert anybody. As far as the east looking at the west and how we treat our women, I've seen it in Afghanistan and in Iraq where women look at how we treat our women and see that as a better thing. I've also seen it the other way around. I think my point was that I dont support the way that the radicals preach their own version of what they believe. I was amazed by all the sects of Islam there actually are over there. It's almost like the Protestant religion here. Each Cleric sees what they believe and thats what they preach. But it all stops there. Each group believes that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Then you have the militants that think everyone is wrong and they'll kill you for believing anything else. Where's the middle ground with them?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Hey, dont go grouping me with Nicklin sucka! I at least TRY and pay attention to the facts. Although, I admit, I havent read what you have, so maybe I would disagree. But Im still no Nicklin.

 

[MikeD]

I agree with you about the Radical Islam being the worst. But I dont think that we as the United States are trying to convert anybody.

I don't think we are trying to 'covert' anyone, either...except that we're trying to impose democracy in places where people tend to think democracy=apostasy and American imperialism.

And I'm not saying I agree with Islamist treatment of women...hell, no. I am very glad I live in the Western world. But I'm also a product of that Western world and know why I like it...and I know many products of the Islamic/Islamist world feel the same way about their culture, politics, and traditions.

I mean, I can't comprehend how some Afghans prefer the Taliban to democracy (and not just the people in power...that's easy to comprehend..."I want to stay on top of a medieval theocracy, so I need to keep the masses in ignorance and propogate my dogma to do it," but ordinary peasants, who see the Word of God on earth as harsh and unpleasant, but true and necessary, especially compared to the seductive ease of Western living), but they do. They believe in an absolute law ordained from God. I don't get it, but I see that they do, and I'm willing to let them get what they get until it affects me.

And it doesn't affect me at all until we decide to involve ourselves in politics abroad, and then get entangled into gigantic messes. Then again, isolationism hasn't always been good for the US or the world, either...

MD

 

[MikeD]

Oh, yeah, Saudi Arabia. They've been talking out of so many sides of their mouths that they've now got perfectly circular lips. They're trying to keep the US's support to keep them in power, and they're trying to buy off the Islamist extremists who hate them in order to stay in power, which means funding them to attack the US, and they're trying to keep their whole population from exercising any political power at all so they can keep their oil and the palaces and the freedom to ignore Islam it buys.

Can't say I'm a big fan of those Saudis.

 

[Changleen]

Found it.

http://www.hesbah.com/disapprove.asp

Although I have yet to find a good arabic translator...

Didn't someone post the CIA/FBI version of exactly such a site a few days ago? Fascism at it's finest...

 

[Andyman_1970]

I find radical Islam in its most theocratic, misogynist form to be abhorrent...hell, I detest even most mild religion as practiced in public/social form, as a method of control rather than a relationship with God..... Plus, plenty of Islamic women look at the West's schizo relationship with women...co-equals on one hand, sex objects on the other...as a sideways form of exploitation, and are happier to wear their Burqua in what they see as fulfillment of God's law.

Nice post Mike.......................

 

[genpowell71]

Didn't someone post the CIA/FBI version of exactly such a site a few days ago? Fascism at it's finest...

I was wondering when you were going to show up...

 

[genpowell71]

Oh, yeah, Saudi Arabia. They've been talking out of so many sides of their mouths that they've now got perfectly circular lips. They're trying to keep the US's support to keep them in power, and they're trying to buy off the Islamist extremists who hate them in order to stay in power, which means funding them to attack the US, and they're trying to keep their whole population from exercising any political power at all so they can keep their oil and the palaces and the freedom to ignore Islam it buys.

Can't say I'm a big fan of those Saudis.

The one thing that I said all along after Khobar towers was that we have no need to be there. For us to leave a permenant presence there would jeopardize American lives and interests there. Now that the Saudi crown family is about to go down, all they want is support from the US. Cant say as I will ever shed any tears over that waste of a country.

 

[MikeD]

The one thing that I said all along after Khobar towers was that we have no need to be there.

Well, see, now you're giving in to the terrorists!

Edit: yes, that was sarcasm...there IS a real question, though, of what message an actual withdrawl would send. This is a main reason not to be involved in fvcked-up world situations from the start.