[dhrace507]

Now I'm not hating on this just to hate. I want to get a few things out of the way before I go off on a rant. I feel this is also important enough that it deserves to have its own thread aside from the 'Sticky' Sea Otter thread.

Just so you know who this is coming from, I race pro DH and slalom, had an awesome run today and ended up in the middle of the pack. No regrets, I tried my ass off and I'm happy with my effort.

I think the Sea Otter DH is an awesome test of fitness and a riders ability to carry speed on a course. The jumps are challenging to do quickly and the few corners that there are seem cool to me.

Now for the bad.

The downhill is a joke because I paid (yes, I paid, not my team) for a race that I was training for and wanted to have an accurate gauge of where I was at coming into the season. If you look through the www.vitalmtb.com site you can see the timing girl, who looked like she would have been happier updating her facebook account than timing the gals or dudes crossing the line.

The event cost me $90 to enter, by far the most expensive single race run event I have ever attended, world cups included.

To charge this much for a course that has not changed much in years with what could be the most inaccurate form of timing is ridiculous. Aside from the cost, it should be embarrassing for the event to have such lax timing at what they call one of the premier races in the world.

Now, aside from the timing, the course could use some updates. The damn thing is tired, and old, and it is just the same. This is minimal effort at its worst. An event as important as the Sea Otter should strive to be progressive and fun. The event is just 'good enough' for people to keep coming back and that is a sad attitude to have. There are lines to ride the course so long I can't even imagine waiting in them in the amateur categories.

Everyone is racing the same damn course, I know, and the racing is always good. But it could be better. A lot better. I hope some of the organizers start to take note, and it could be better for everyone in the end. It might be hypocritical when I say I will probably go next year, but rest assured, it is more for the $8 of fried squid in nick-nack village than for the dh course.

 

[William42]

Can I like this? I'm pretty pissed off about the timing, and the sh1tty course. The festival is fun, racing is fun, so I'm down to pay the money to race every few years, but fyck, this course sucks. There is no reason there can't be some flow and some jumps, carry in a few rocks for some rock gardens, and race beg/sport on one course, and expert and pro on another. 2 practice runs over the course of 2 days is pretty sh1tty.

 

[Transcend]

Was the hand timing a backup system? Many races (including some world cups) have hand timing as a secondary or third string timing system. Radio systems can **** the bed when weather moves in etc.

 

[toodles]

You're fscking kiddin about the timing system right? Holy crap that is weak. Hahaha... Did something break down?

 

[fro biker]

"This is how the hundredths of seconds and downhill results and are determined at the Sea Otter Classic. Nope, no laser beam timing system for your entry fee, only the reaction time of this thumb and a back up thumb (out of the shot) in case this thumb doesn't work." (copy and pasted from the picture caption)

seems fool-proof to me guys.

 

[dhrace507]

Was the hand timing a backup system? Many races (including some world cups) have hand timing as a secondary or third string timing system. Radio systems can **** the bed when weather moves in etc.

This was not the backup system. The backup system was the other thumb, which could probably text on an iPhone quite well, so I trust it fully. There was no laser start either, or a real gate for that matter. Just go on the sixth beep. The races at Southridge are probably more accurate because Donny has the same people starting and finishing racers all the time.

 

[Speedgoat9]

for such a high profile race, that's just sad

 

[daisycutter]

THe DH has always sucked. No lifts and so much other stuff going on almost assure you a so so DH race. The timing issue though I admit is just weak. The event is just a bikes and booths.

 

[slowmtb]

Reminds me of when Rock Crawling first began:

X competitor became "World Champion", but it was run in America by Americans for Americans

However in some small way I do feel your pain ( assuming the OP is not exaggerating )

 

[redride]

kidding me! we are using RFIDs all the way here in tropical malaysia! That's definitely NOT ON!!!

 

[jonKranked]

 

[SylentK]

Apparently not every race can be as good as a Mountain States Cup race, eh?

Your complaint(s) seem valid and as someone else pointed out, a little obvious. I can't believe so many peeps show up to that (still). Seems like a very small value to cost ratio especially for the AM's.

 

[Prettym1k3]

Poor timing, stupid spectators not being controlled by course refs, people riding WAY out of their category, fees being too high. Can we get this post to be a sticky, but I'll Facebook "like" the sh*t out of it.

 

[bizutch]

All the typical electronic timing systems have a thumb stop back up timer b/c like Fraser said, it protects against missed times due to dust, rain or glitching of the photocells.

But the original poster of the thread says there were no photocells or a wand at the start or the finish line. Holy cow, is that a race promoters dream come true. To sucker the world into paying full tilt for non-certified timing. So basicly, you could swap the top 20 riders in any random order right now because humans are not a timing system in World Cup level competition.

Usually 20th place at the Otter is off the pace by something like 3-6 seconds. Every single rider should file 1 single filing for fraud and receive a full refund. I'm not trying to be dramatic, but that is theft, deception and fraud, 100% at the premier debut cycling event of the season.


Was the DS photocelled? If not, same thing applies. All results are invalidated!

 

[MDJ]

Unfortunately for us on this forum, on the list of reasons to go to the Sea Otter, the downhill race is all the way at the bottom. To make it worse for me personally, work committments kept me from racing the DS.

The sad thing is, with just a little more effort it could be so much better even given the limitations of the terrain.

 

[buildyourown]

Money talks, speak with your money.

I know this won't ever happen at SO because of it's mini trade show status, but you paid the money and you knew it was going to suck. It's the same lame course every year with the same lines and people still bitch.

We had a crap production company doing our regional races years ago. About half the people stopped going and they finally got the hint and quit, opening the door for other races. (they were a for-profit)

 

[OGRipper]

Same friggin' story every year. Anyone expecting a world class DH course at the Otter is confused. It's 900 feet of sand dune. It's not a DH weekend, it's an industry-wide festival that has all kinds of racing. Specialize in one thing and you should do it right. Try to do everything at the same time and you are destined for mediocrity.

It's reasonable to expect that the races will be run properly (and timed accurately!), but as for the DH course...did I mention it's 900 feet of sand dune?

They tried adding a rock garden a year or two ago and people complained about that too...

Wild Bill deserves a merit badge for even taking on the challenge.

 

[toodles]

Was the DS photocelled? If not, same thing applies. All results are invalidated!

That's a good point - especially given how tight the margins were.

For those interested, (few I suspect) - I built a laser timing system for my backyard pump track using a MicroLogix 1100 processor and a retroreflective photocell. The software I used for displaying the results was a free HMI package developed in Visual Basic. I think you could build a timing system accurate to .001 for around $1200 if you used a wired connection from the start to the finish. Using a wireless system would increase the cost by maybe $500 - $600.

I don't know how much off-the-shelf timing systems cost, but Sea Otter would have been better off just buying a heap of Freelap gear compared to using thumb-operated systems. That's appalling in any event that is decided by hundredths.

 

[sanjuro]

Same friggin' story every year. Anyone expecting a world class DH course at the Otter is confused. It's 900 feet of sand dune. It's not a DH weekend, it's an industry-wide festival that has all kinds of racing. Specialize in one thing and you should do it right. Try to do everything at the same time and you are destined for mediocrity.

It's reasonable to expect that the races will be run properly (and timed accurately!), but as for the DH course...did I mention it's 900 feet of sand dune?

They tried adding a rock garden a year or two ago and people complained about that too...

Wild Bill deserves a merit badge for even taking on the challenge.

I agree totally, OG (and if you keep inviting me to your b-day party, I will forever be your Yes-Man).

First of all, if you are going to complain about timing and course design, I hope you VOLUNTEERED. Every race, especially the large ones, are dependent on the hundreds of volunteers.

Second, every year everyone complains about the course. Yes, this is not Garbanzo, which is held on a MOUNTAIN. What "progressive and fun" features can you have on a big sand dune? Free beer and strippers?

As for the cost, yes, $90 is getting expensive. Do you know how much it costs for the average fan to watch MotoGP at Laguna Seca 3 months from now? $50.

 

[bdamschen]

I never expect sea otter to be a crazy DH gnar-fest. Do I like those courses? Hell yeah, they're awesome to race or ride. Did I have fun at sea otter? Hell yeah because the course is still fun to ride.

Sucks about the timing though. If you're going to pay that much for a race, it would be nice to have some sort of high tech fool-proof solution. Maybe they blew all their money for the dual timing instead?

I still like riding DH, getting to see all my racer-friends who don't live close by and drinking lots and lots of beer, so I'll be back next year.

 

[NateH]

Don't go if you don't like it. Everyone knows what they are getting into, and the fact that people go just because it is the Sea Otter is the reason why the organizers can get away with stuff like hand timing.

 

[LOOnatic]

Don't go if you don't like it. Everyone knows what they are getting into, and the fact that people go just because it is the Sea Otter is the reason why the organizers can get away with stuff like hand timing.

Right on.
I thought everybody knows the SeaOtter kinda sucks riding wise and thats it's more of a mini interbike feel good cali chill fest.

 

[dirtboyracer]

It's worth pointing out that all the XC races use a timing chip. IDK if that same system works for DH though...

 

[Pete..]

It's Sea Otter. Who gives a ****?

 

[MDJ]

No one gives a **** about the Sea Otter. That's why every bike related website is plastered with news, pics, and video of the event and why people take the time to post on here about it. Because it's the Sea Otter - nobody gives a ****.

 

[nolson450]

It's a sign....sell your DH bike and go back to college....

 

[gemini2k]

THe DH has always sucked.

It always cracks me up when people complain about races like that or the firestone races or fontana. It's like....seriously? These courses are well well well well known to be sub-par, yet they go, race, and complain. Just stupid.

 

[MinorThreat]

It's worth pointing out that all the XC races use a timing chip. IDK if that same system works for DH though...

Yes it does.

As for the course, why does it really matter if the course is not knock-your-socks-off stellar? What matters in the end is whether or not you rode it faster than everyone else in your class.

 

[dirtboyracer]

People are complaining about how badly run the DH is compared to the cost. For the 60+ dollars, a decent timing system should be in place, especially for a race with quite a bit of money on the line for the top pros.

 

[I.van]

That's a good point - especially given how tight the margins were.

For those interested, (few I suspect) - I built a laser timing system for my backyard pump track using a MicroLogix 1100 processor and a retroreflective photocell. The software I used for displaying the results was a free HMI package developed in Visual Basic. I think you could build a timing system accurate to .001 for around $1200 if you used a wired connection from the start to the finish. Using a wireless system would increase the cost by maybe $500 - $600.

I don't know how much off-the-shelf timing systems cost, but Sea Otter would have been better off just buying a heap of Freelap gear compared to using thumb-operated systems. That's appalling in any event that is decided by hundredths.

You made a laser timing system for your backyard pumptrack????

 

[toodles]

You made a laser timing system for your backyard pumptrack????

Yeah we had night racing under lights in my backyard for a few weeks. Sucks finding out you're only the 3rd fastest on a track that is literally in your backyard.

 

[bizutch]

That's a good point - especially given how tight the margins were.

For those interested, (few I suspect) - I built a laser timing system for my backyard pump track using a MicroLogix 1100 processor and a retroreflective photocell. The software I used for displaying the results was a free HMI package developed in Visual Basic. I think you could build a timing system accurate to .001 for around $1200 if you used a wired connection from the start to the finish. Using a wireless system would increase the cost by maybe $500 - $600.

I don't know how much off-the-shelf timing systems cost, but Sea Otter would have been better off just buying a heap of Freelap gear compared to using thumb-operated systems. That's appalling in any event that is decided by hundredths.

Do us a favor and post the list of parts, where to buy each and photos. I'm confident a few do-it-yourselfers on here could give the layman enough info to make their own backyard setup. Would come in handy for the occasional club too.

Brady Owens of Derailed was telling me once he could do this same thing for only a few hundred bucks.

The irony of that thumb switch is that it's something $100.00 option to add to the timing systems from Tag Hauer. The complete base digital system from Tag is $1800 from Reliable. That's with a mini-result printer too.
www.reliableracing.com .

Most expensive part of a wired system is the wire itself.

 

[bizutch]

Whoops. This is a better link to the DH specific setup:

http://www.tagheuer-timing.com/sports/standard-configurations/mtb/mtb_startgate_cp540/index.lbl?lang=en

 

[EM-EFER]

I found this thread informative. I for one, will never attend Sea Otter and this thread helped make my decision.

 

[rockofullr]

I found this thread informative. I for one, will never attend Sea Otter and this thread helped make my decision.

Don't listen to all the hate. Sea Otter is a great event as long you don't expect something it's not.

Also, it's the only times you will see the big names in gravity racing competing on one DS course.

 

[dump]

That's a good point - especially given how tight the margins were.

For those interested, (few I suspect) - I built a laser timing system for my backyard pump track using a MicroLogix 1100 processor and a retroreflective photocell. The software I used for displaying the results was a free HMI package developed in Visual Basic. I think you could build a timing system accurate to .001 for around $1200 if you used a wired connection from the start to the finish. Using a wireless system would increase the cost by maybe $500 - $600.

I don't know how much off-the-shelf timing systems cost, but Sea Otter would have been better off just buying a heap of Freelap gear compared to using thumb-operated systems. That's appalling in any event that is decided by hundredths.

That sounds awesome. I'd love to hear more.

 

[MDJ]

I found this thread informative. I for one, will never attend Sea Otter and this thread helped make my decision.

Why? Despite all the hate, it's a great event. Yes, the OP has a right to be pissed. The timing issue sucked, but hey, for most people who cares. You're not going to win any money and there isn't a million $ contract on the line.

I would rather go to the Otter knowing the faults and have a good time than watching it from a computer monitor.

I mean, where else can you yell at roadies on the lift back to the top??

 

[toodles]

That sounds awesome. I'd love to hear more.

Do us a favor and post the list of parts, where to buy each and photos. I'm confident a few do-it-yourselfers on here could give the layman enough info to make their own backyard setup. Would come in handy for the occasional club too.

This isn't an electronics forum obviously but here goes. I used parts I'm familiar with, and the project could have been done a lot cheaper if you shopped around.

I used an Allen-Bradley MicroLogix 1100, but for the sake of cost you could use one of their cheaper 1000 series micro-processors. All you need to do is latch on a timer with a .001 second timebase. The latch can be triggered by either a photocell (ideal for lap timing), or an electronic reed switch mounted to a gate (for time trials like DH).

For a lap timer, I set the program to copy the accumulated millisecond total to a new file, and reset the timer, only once everytime the photocell was triggered. It's a good idea to give the photocell a 'flicker' delay of say 20msec so it needs to be solidly interrupted to register a lap.

To display the information I used Advanced HMI to create a full screen scoreboard. You can download Advanced HMI from sourceforge.net for free.

That probably didn't make any sense to anyone, but the point is - if you're running a DH time trial event with any credibility whatsoever, stopwatches aren't enough. One of those MicroLogix processors has enough memory and inputs to run 6 simultaneous events, and could easily run a DH race with 60 odd riders on the hill at the same time.

Oh and the ML units have a big enough on-board power supply to run most photocells so you don't need a seperate power supply.

[/end nerdtalk]

 

[Nozzes]

90$,hand timing,flat (as you-can-win-it-on-your-4X-bike flat) course...is this 2010 Sea Otter then?
I grew up reading american mtb magazines,and dreaming about one day racing a big event over there...the dream is gone a long time ago.I don't say this just because the SO.
American mtb racing is on the wrong hands for some time now,isn't it?

 

[Pslide]

This isn't an electronics forum obviously but here goes. I used parts I'm familiar with, and the project could have been done a lot cheaper if you shopped around.

...

Oh and the ML units have a big enough on-board power supply to run most photocells so you don't need a seperate power supply.

[/end nerdtalk]

What happens if a rider crashes or passes another rider with your system?