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Second hand Sunday- Play in lower BB linkage- nasty??!

J

J5ive

Guest
Looking to buy a second hand Sunday WC, however it has a whack of play at the lower linkage. Apparently its been like that since new and the new reducers etc have been fitted. But there is still play. My question is- could something be flogged out? Just a little concerned here. Buyer bewaring. :dancing: :o:
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
There should not be play in the linkage, new, used, or otherwise. Are you sure it's not play in the shock mounting bolts? Some of the early sundays had mis-sized shock hardware, which Iron Horse will replace.

If it's actually in where the linkage mounts to the frame, have the person send it back to IH for warranty, because that definitely should not be the case. Don't buy the bike unless the issue is resolved.
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,578
0
Victoria
Ohio, the IH distributor over here (Aus) quickly distributed the new hardware to shops about 3 weeks after they landed. However, it didn't appear to actually solve anything, as every single Sunday I know of still has play in at least one location (usually the shock mounts). Hopefully the 06s get it right.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,385
2,556
AK
thaflyinfatman said:
Ohio, the IH distributor over here (Aus) quickly distributed the new hardware to shops about 3 weeks after they landed. However, it didn't appear to actually solve anything, as every single Sunday I know of still has play in at least one location (usually the shock mounts). Hopefully the 06s get it right.
There's two kinds of play usually associated with suspension, one is as a result of shock bushings wearing, and it's an easy fix. The other is ovalized linkages holes/shock mounts. You can't do anything about it other than junk whatever part it is (frame or linkage) and start over. Usually any attempt to "shim" it will allow it to keep propagating.

I've seen this in multiple IHs, including one that I owned.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,385
2,556
AK
thaflyinfatman said:
You missed the third kind - hardware that isn't toleranced correctly and is loose as stock.
Yeah, I was more referring to play that "develops", but IH seems to have some problems with specing the right equipment too, like with the 04 SGS bikes that used the manitou swinger. They came with the wrong kind of shock axle.

It doesn't sound like the case here, but too many people always figure it's the shock bushings, when sometimes it's one of these other problems, and as I said, they can be harder to solve.
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,777
0
Lawnguyland, New F'in Yawk
All - Iron Horse has been dealing all season w/ some tolerance issues and hardware quality issues on parts supplied by 3rd party sources. We have been working throughout the season to get these sorted. We have new freshy lower pins and some shock hardware/spacers to fix any issue. We stand behind the product and if there are any ongoing "warranty" issues relating to this beyond the standard warranty period we will continue to service and support at no additional charge.

In relation to 06 product, we have finally nailed down a supplied for the hardware and are seeing no problems of fit and slop with the new shocks/hardware on 06 pre-production/test bikes.

-ska todd
 

patineto

The RM Mad Scientist
Feb 19, 2002
935
0
berkeley, ca
i have a question..

what happend with all this frames and swingarms that become useless...??

do they get replace by Iron Horse or the new owner is not entittle to a warranty...?

anyway i will love to get my hand in one of them and try to fix it,,ofcourse we need to be very cheap to justified the experiment..

thanks in advance for the leads and answers..

Ps,,I really like those frames, is a shame a silly O.E.M. spect Mistake can damage such a cool design..
 

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,675
40
Waxhaw, NC
J5ive said:
Looking to buy a second hand Sunday WC, however it has a whack of play at the lower linkage. Apparently its been like that since new and the new reducers etc have been fitted. But there is still play. My question is- could something be flogged out? Just a little concerned here. Buyer bewaring. :dancing: :o:
Here is something else you can check. If you are sure the play is coming from the shock and the reducers and shock pins have been replaced with the updated hardware, try replacing the DU bushings. I had replaced all of the other hardware at one time and I still had the same amount of play on my Sunday. I had a new Fox DU bushing kicking around so I pulled out the cheesy plastic Progressive DU and installed the Fox. Most of the play disappeared. I still have to replace the lower DU and I am sure it will take care of the minimal remaing play.
 
J

J5ive

Guest
Thanks all. But my question isn't really anwsered.

Would riding the sunday for 6+ months on dodgy bolts/spacers flog out more than the hardware? Could the frame be flogged out somewhere? Bit hard to guess I spose :)
 

dfinn

Turbo Monkey
Jul 24, 2003
2,129
0
SL, UT
for something that expensive I wouldn't risk it, but i'm no expert. I would want to know what the problem is and fix it.
 

patineto

The RM Mad Scientist
Feb 19, 2002
935
0
berkeley, ca
J5ive said:
Thanks all. But my question isn't really anwsered.

Would riding the sunday for 6+ months on dodgy bolts/spacers flog out more than the hardware? Could the frame be flogged out somewhere? Bit hard to guess I spose :)
Pivots mounts, bushings, shafts and linkage plates act pretty much in the same a Headtube will do when the headset is losee, or the loads are far to intense, if the pieces are losee they are going to tend to ovalize if the load is on a single axle (like on a headtube) or flair outwards changing the shape of the bearing mouting surface making them losse or at least giving them a uneven shape...

the short version is YES will be "terminal damage",, if the whole sistem is not homogenius and tight, focal points (Stress risers) are going to become evident and if not evident at least will fatige the materials beyond what is spect it and hairline cracks and deformation possibly will apear..

you can always Bore the Pivot points on a vertical Milling machine and add alloy Steel inserts to reinforce the bearing mounts and make them share the loads in pairs, but maybe you will need smaller size bearings so the inserts can be fit with out compromissing the wall thickness of the mounts, not a easy or cheap process but it can be done with great results
 

shmity

Chimp
Oct 6, 2004
39
4
Check that the new shafts have been installed as well. The stock ones were hollow where as the replacements were not, although if they have replaced the reducers, i would be surprised that they had not replaced the shafts.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
patineto said:
Pivots mounts, bushings, shafts and linkage plates act pretty much in the same a Headtube will do when the headset is losee, or the loads are far to intense, if the pieces are losee they are going to tend to ovalize if the load is on a single axle (like on a headtube) or flair outwards changing the shape of the bearing mouting surface making them losse or at least giving them a uneven shape...

the short version is YES will be "terminal damage",, if the whole sistem is not homogenius and tight, focal points (Stress risers) are going to become evident and if not evident at least will fatige the materials beyond what is spect it and hairline cracks and deformation possibly will apear..
This would have to be an very worst case scenario. There has not been one instance of this happening on Sundays due to poor shock hardware. We are talking a tolerance differeance of 0.05mm that is causing the play.

patineto said:
you can always Bore the Pivot points on a vertical Milling machine and add alloy Steel inserts to reinforce the bearing mounts and make them share the loads in pairs, but maybe you will need smaller size bearings so the inserts can be fit with out compromissing the wall thickness of the mounts, not a easy or cheap process but it can be done with great results
No, you cannot do this to a Sunday. The frame uses oversize 7075 T6 aluminum pivots and oversize pivot bores all designed specifically to eliminate any ovalization possibility. sleeving the bores will reduce the strength of the aluminum frame and cause damage.

So in short, the symptom you describe is not present, and the remedy is not possible.

Dave
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
J5ive said:
Looking to buy a second hand Sunday WC, however it has a whack of play at the lower linkage. Apparently its been like that since new and the new reducers etc have been fitted. But there is still play. My question is- could something be flogged out? Just a little concerned here. Buyer bewaring. :dancing: :o:
As this is an Australian Sunday, I would suggest checking a couple things. Australia was the first country to get the bikes. The distributor was were supposed to take care of making sure that a few factory issues were taken care of, but not all riders are "into" bringing their bike in for maintenence until there's an issue. The things that should have beein done to the Austrailian frame:

It should have MAX type bearings at all pivots. The very first Australian frames did not get the MAX type bearings, for reasons that still mystify me.

It should have correct pivot hardware that measures 7.95-7.98 diameter. This has never been a problem actually, so if this is an issue, its an anomaly. Worth checking just to alleviate your own fears.

Lower shock pivot hardware should use an M6 bolt, 10mm long, and have a maximum M6 tapped hole depth of 13mm. Iron Horse has correct hardware for this on delivery and will ship to any Sunday owner who needs one. The pin will not bend.

The Progressive hardware should measure 8.00 mm ID. Not 8.05mm to 8.10mm, 8.00mm on the dot. This was a problem with all of the Progressive shocks and it was corrected by Progressive. If your bike in fact has the correct hardware from Progressive then this will check out. You have to use a bore gage and micrometer or inside micrometer to make this measurement.

If there is an issue beyond these three, contact Iron Horse and I am sure they will arrange to review the frame and replace it if necessary. As I said, Australia Sundays are really the ones affected by this stuff. Later frame kits and completes shipped with no issues to my knowledge, but as with any production item, cars, toasters, bikes. there are always manufacturing glitches here and there and Iron Horse and their affiliates stand behind their products.

Hope this helps

Dave
 

CBJ

Turbo Monkey
Mar 19, 2002
11,182
1,420
Copenhagen, Denmark
And real life experince:

I installed all new hardware after I came home from Whistler med July and I have ridden the bike every weekend since then. No bending of pins, no wear on pins, all bearing works perfect.

As Salami talked about the DU bushings from Progressive are not a tight feeling as the Fox ones and there is a little bit of "natural" play in the bushings even when they are brand new. Again this play feel has been the same since the bushings were installed in mid July and can only be felt if I lift op in the saddel.
 

Bati

Monkey
May 8, 2003
354
0
Santiago - Chile
CBJ said:
And real life experince:

I installed all new hardware after I came home from Whistler med July and I have ridden the bike every weekend since then. No bending of pins, no wear on pins, all bearing works perfect.

As Salami talked about the DU bushings from Progressive are not a tight feeling as the Fox ones and there is a little bit of "natural" play in the bushings even when they are brand new. Again this play feel has been the same since the bushings were installed in mid July and can only be felt if I lift op in the saddel.
"natural" play when brand new?... no way, it IS poor manufacturing specs.

Just replace the bushings by tight hand finished ones....
 

shmity

Chimp
Oct 6, 2004
39
4
dw said:
It should have MAX type bearings at all pivots. The very first Australian frames did not get the MAX type bearings, for reasons that still mystify me.
How do i tell if the bearings are to spec or not? I got a spare set of all bearings in the box with my bike, which i put in from the get go, but they all had the same bearing numbers as those that came out of the bike.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
shmity said:
How do i tell if the bearings are to spec or not? I got a spare set of all bearings in the box with my bike, which i put in from the get go, but they all had the same bearing numbers as those that came out of the bike.
They say the word MAX in capital letters on the bearing seal. Also if you pop the seal off, the bearings are full of balls, one next to another, with no plastic retainer ring.

Dave