[fluff]

In the spirit of N8 who is sadly still with us...:devil:

BBC Newz:

The UK is among the most secular, the US amongst the most secular.

Also I would like to know, how many of those who are willing to die for their beliefs are also willing to kill for their beliefs?

Me, I'm not religious at all so it looks like I'm in the right place!

(Opinion posted to try and prevent N8-ism accusations).

 

[zod]

Originally posted by fluff
Also I would like to know, how many of those who are willing to die for their beliefs are also willing to kill for their beliefs?

Certainly I would be willing to die for my beliefs, kill would really depend on the circumstances.....it's a little bit harder to answer straight up.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Die for my faith, you bet. Kill for my faith, that is contrary to my faith.

 

[DRB]

Kill for my faith? Never . Die for my faith? Can't say honestly, I'd like to think I would but....

The article is interesting but what correlations can be drawn from it? Compare the UK results with the violence in Northern Ireland which based very much on religious differences what does that mean. The US has very high beliefs but little religious violence. (the random shooting of an abortion doctor).

So I don't think it has it is so much about belief but about tolerance of those with differing beliefs. Or maybe how far you are willing to take your intolerance of others.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Originally posted by zod
Certainly I would be willing to die for my beliefs, kill would really depend on the circumstances.....it's a little bit harder to answer straight up.

anyone who would blindly die for their beliefs, without never given them a 2nd thought, rational analysis, or any substantial proof, actually deserves it.

for the good of mankind.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by zod
Certainly I would be willing to die for my beliefs, kill would really depend on the circumstances.....it's a little bit harder to answer straight up.

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
anyone who would blindly die for their beliefs, without never given them a 2nd thought, rational analysis, or any substantial proof, actually deserves it.

for the good of mankind.

ooh shiznit, this is gonna be fun :devil: *gets the popcorn*

 

[Tenchiro]

Brings to mind Jonestown and Heavens Gate...

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by LordOpie

ooh shiznit, this is gonna be fun :devil: *gets the popcorn* [/QUOTE]

It's taking a while to warm up, but there's hope...

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by fluff
It's taking a while to warm up, but there's hope...

eh, by the time Mr.CrystalClarity shows up, Aunt Flo will have disappeared again

Guess zod's out riding... as am I in an hour. Don't hate me, but it's a road ride day for me :devil:

 

[zod]

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
anyone who would blindly die for their beliefs, without never given them a 2nd thought, rational analysis, or any substantial proof, actually deserves it.

for the good of mankind.

Thanks for your great opinion Aunt Flo, it seems to mean a lot around here........

 

[Jr_Bullit]

For the first time, I think I actually side with Alexis

I heartily agree...blindly dying for "faith" kinda sticks you up there in the Darwin awards category ....and for the betterment of mankind, I'd rather see the thinking ones survive .

However, would I fight back if attacked.....quite possibly....would I kill for faith, no...but I'd kill cuz someone decided to try and attack me

Self Defense and all that jazz ....beliefs are a personal thing, respect others for their beliefs but work hard to improve upon your own understanding, and don't 'believe' in something just cuz someone told you to.

 

[zod]

I missed the blindly part and DH conveniently added to the original question.........

Anyone who would not die for their beliefs however must not be strongly rooted in them to begin with though.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by zod
I missed the blindly part and DH conveniently added to the original question.........

Anyone who would not die for their beliefs however must not be strongly rooted in them to begin with though.

But if you're dead, how can you further propagate that belief system. It seems to me that people that would willingly lay down their lives for an idea, have alot of heart but don't really think towards the future.

A belief is not much good if there is nobody around to believe it.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by zod
I missed the blindly part and DH conveniently added to the original question.........

Anyone who would not die for their beliefs however must not be strongly rooted in them to begin with though.

Perhaps, but a belief system should be one that is flexible and ever evolving as your understanding a comprehension of the world around you grows over time. If my beliefs remained static from the time I was 13, and did not grow as my experiences throughout life has grown, I would be laying down my life for things that today do not make sense to me.

I also highly disagree that someone who would choose to survive or maintain their life is not firmly rooted in their belief system. While it definitely takes a certain amount of determination, and if I may suggest it, insanity, to overcome your natural inclination towards survival and not fight back when it is your time to die for a belief your death prevents your ability to pass along what you have learned throughout your life that makes your belief so very viable.

Now granted, my interpretation of the meaning of this thread was belief as in religious belief...however, if someone were to try and take my freedom, my ability to live as an independent person with my own unique thoughts and decisions, I would fight back and if death was the option presented to me then so be it. It is only one step in a journey, correct?

Finally, it is silly to sit here and debate who would be the biggest martyr amongst us when the time came. When all is said and done, most people do not have what it takes to be a martyr, to die for a belief...and you can't honestly brag about such strength of mind - because you won't know until the time may come. Now you may romanticize about your personal ability to stand up in the face of repression for your belief system, but what say you to the day such repression becomes reality and your very words come back to haunt you. I say that most of us would not have what it takes, irregardless of how we personally view ourselves or would like others to view us.

 

[zod]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
But if you're dead, how can you further propagate that belief system. It seems to me that people that would willingly lay down their lives for an idea, have alot of heart but don't really think towards the future.

A belief is not much good if there is nobody around to believe it.

I am not a good propagater of my belief system (although I am supposed to be). I have to disagree with you about not thinking towards the future, I would say that Jesus certainly thought about the future when he layed down his life. I would certainly think about the future if I did the same as well. No where did I say my decision would not be rational.
I also don't think my beliefs need my around to be continued, if they were solely my own beliefs then that would certainly apply though.

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Perhaps, but a belief system should be one that is flexible and ever evolving as your understanding a comprehension of the world around you grows over time. If my beliefs remained static from the time I was 13, and did not grow as my experiences throughout life has grown, I would be laying down my life for things that today do not make sense to me.

Did I say my beliefs were not ever changing, I certainly think differently then I did at 13, my answer to the question at 13 would have been toally different.

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I also highly disagree that someone who would choose to survive or maintain their life is not firmly rooted in their belief system. While it definitely takes a certain amount of determination, and if I may suggest it, insanity, to overcome your natural inclination towards survival and not fight back when it is your time to die for a belief your death prevents your ability to pass along what you have learned throughout your life that makes your belief so very viable.

If your belief system is rooted in the here and now then I would agree with that, however mine is not. Sure the idea of dying is not exactly appealing to me but if I was put in a situation and felt like it was a situation where I was going to have to die for what I believe then I have a hard time not believing that is the choice I would make. I think it would be insane for an Atheist to die for his beliefs, but if you believe in any form of an afterlife then what is so insane about dying???? It is also VERY possible that your death WILL pass along what you have learned throughout your life that makes your belief so very viable. Much opposite from PREVENTING.
When the Columbine killers came into one classroom they asked if their were any Christians in the room, several students raised their hands and were shot to death. They may have sent a very powerful message to some of the students who witnessed it, their witness to the survivors is very real.

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Now granted, my interpretation of the meaning of this thread was belief as in religious belief...however, if someone were to try and take my freedom, my ability to live as an independent person with my own unique thoughts and decisions, I would fight back and if death was the option presented to me then so be it. It is only one step in a journey, correct?

Agreed....

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Finally, it is silly to sit here and debate who would be the biggest martyr amongst us when the time came. When all is said and done, most people do not have what it takes to be a martyr, to die for a belief...and you can't honestly brag about such strength of mind - because you won't know until the time may come. Now you may romanticize about your personal ability to stand up in the face of repression for your belief system, but what say you to the day such repression becomes reality and your very words come back to haunt you. I say that most of us would not have what it takes, irregardless of how we personally view ourselves or would like others to view us.

Very true, but I didn't realize this thread was supposed to be some kind of cock fight? A question was posed and I gave my answer to the best of feelings (and hopes)....

If I was in the same situation as those kids in Columbine I would like to think that I would be as strong as them....but in that situation it is tough to call. They were true martyrs, dying soley for their beliefs at the possible end benefit of nobody else. I say possible because if one person came to know Jesus or the time it took to kill them stopped the death of other students who were not saved then it was worth it.......BUT they would never know that when they made their choice.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by zod
Did I say my beliefs were not ever changing...

yes, you did, but it's good to hear that you're more reasonable today.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by zod
IIf your belief system is rooted in the here and now then I would agree with that, however mine is not.

I appreciate and understand all of the points you have laid out. I disagree with many of them, but for reasons that are uncontestable. You and I simply view the world and our place within from completely opposite positions. I do live in the here and now and love every second I am here. While I do have my own set of beliefs that dictate what I think will happen following my death, and that death is only one step in a much greater journey, I do not spend much time dwelling on what that journey will be, nor do I think much on the ways in which that journey will be so much greater than this current step within it that I would lay down my life and forfeit all experiences designed for me in this stage.

I would rather take it one day at a time, love each day and enjoy it to its fullest. When the time comes then so be it.

I also think that we agree on one area....by 'dying for a belief' I did not take into consideration simply standing up for ones beliefs. That is another matter entirely, and if standing up for ones beliefs ends in death, then so be it, it is respectable. But I would not agree with someone who purposely chased or enticed death as a measure of drawing attention to their beliefs and thus propagating them.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I also think that we agree on one area....by 'dying for a belief' I did not take into consideration simply standing up for ones beliefs. That is another matter entirely, and if standing up for ones beliefs ends in death, then so be it, it is respectable. But I would not agree with someone who purposely chased or enticed death as a measure of drawing attention to their beliefs and thus propagating them.

Excellent clarification.

I would die for my beliefs in so far as "standing up for them" if it came down to it. Do I want to be a martyr? Not really, but if it came down to it I think I would give my life standing up for my befiefs.

I do not however, look to end my life so I can achieve some "higher reward", that is contrary to my faith.