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Senate Dem's "run away, run away" bill shot down

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Senate rejects Democratic deadlines for quitting Iraq
Jun 22 2:17 PM US/Eastern

The US Senate easily defeated two Democratic measures that would set deadlines for withdrawing US troops from Iraq as the war becomes a key election year issue.

The Republican-controlled Senate rejected one resolution, proposed by former presidential candidate Senator John Kerry, calling for combat troops to be withdrawn from Iraq by July 1 next year, by a vote of 13 to 86.

The second bill, calling for troops to begin moving out of Iraq this year but without setting a hard timetable for final withdrawal, was dismissed 60 votes to 39.

The legislation came as amendments to a Defense Department spending bill being debated in the Senate.

The Democratic leader in the Senate, Harry Reid, who supported the bill favoring a gradual US troop draw-down, said the United States has to begin reducing its military presence in Iraq.

"I believe it is long past time to change course in Iraq and start to end the presidents open-ended commitment," he said.

"After four long years, more than 2,500 American lives, thousands grievously wounded, hundreds of billions of dollars spent, and threats ignored around the globe, Congress needs to choose a new direction," he said.

Neither bill had been given much chance of passing the Republican-controlled Senate, but lawmakers said they nevertheless reflect the deepening public disaffection with the US military engagement in Iraq.

Republicans, for their part, welcomed the chance to make the case, just a few months ahead of critical midterm elections, that they are the party with strong, coherent view on issues related to defense and security.

With the Iraq war increasingly unpopular with the US public, Democrats hope to take control of the Senate or House of Representatives in the November elections.

Republicans had dismissed both bills as "cut and run" proposals which they said would ultimately make the United States more vulnerable to terrorism.

President George W. Bush has said that a complete US withdrawal "will be decided by future presidents and future governments of Iraq," but Reid said Americans must now begin to look to its own interests and allow the Iraqis to take care of theirs.

"We need to say to President Bush you need a plan for Iraqis to take responsibility for their own security and government," the Democratic leader said.

The Republican Majority leader in the Senate, Bill Frist, insisted that withdrawal would be tantamount to surrender, leaving America more vulnerable to terrorism and Iraq in anarchy.


"Withdrawal is not an option, surrender is not a solution," Frist said.

"The time to leave Irakis when we reach our objectives. Our objectives are achievable and we are achieving them," said Frist.

"Brave men and women of our armed forces are fighting daily to win in Iraq, and it would dishonor them -- to say nothing of their fallen camarades -- to cut and run at a time as promising as now," he said, saying that both Democratic amendments engender a "spirit of defeatism and surrender."

"This is not the spirit that made America the great nation it is today," he said.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
fluff said:
Oh, your boys will be there for years to come.

that's ok, they're going to be somewhere anyway. Not a bad idea to have a large battle tested US military presence in that area of the world
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
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TN
N8 said:
that's ok, they're going to be somewhere anyway. Not a bad idea to have a large battle tested US military presence in that area of the world
I agree, but it IS A BAD IDEA to be wasting BILLIONS on stuff abroad when we're trying to sell off chunks of national forest to pay for rural schools at home:rolleyes:
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
N8 said:
that's ok, they're going to be somewhere anyway. Not a bad idea to have a large battle tested US military presence in that area of the world
The question may be whether the US made the move too soon.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
BurlyShirley said:
I agree, but it IS A BAD IDEA to be wasting BILLIONS on stuff abroad when we're trying to sell off chunks of national forest to pay for rural schools at home:rolleyes:

Oh lord! ur getting to be a regular tree hugger aincha?

Do you really think if the Dem's took over and the troops came home that the sale would be stopped? Come on man!
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
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TN
N8 said:
Oh lord! ur getting to be a regular tree hugger aincha?

Do you really think if the Dem's took over and the troops came home that the sale would be stopped? Come on man!
Why do you have to polarize everything into a republican/democrat debate? It'd be a stupid idea no matter who came up w/ it, but the fact of the matter is that the republicans did. And dont give me any sh!t about it either, because you know what Bush pulled was bull**** with his $300 tax credits to EVERYONE because YOU of all people are AGAINST handouts (and with good reason) and thats EXACTLY what that was. And you know it.
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
BurlyShirley said:
Why do you have to polarize everything into a republican/democrat debate? It'd be a stupid idea no matter who came up w/ it, but the fact of the matter is that the republicans did. And dont give me any sh!t about it either, because you know what Bush pulled was bull**** with his $300 tax credits to EVERYONE because YOU of all people are AGAINST handouts (and with good reason) and thats EXACTLY what that was. And you know it.
I can't believe you just actually tried to engage N8 in a conversation. :rofl:
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
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TN
Echo said:
I can't believe you just actually tried to engage N8 in a conversation. :rofl:
There really isnt alot of room for conversation on this one, to be honest. The facts are the facts.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
BurlyShirley said:
There really isnt alot of room for conversation on this one, to be honest. The facts are the facts.

I agree it is pretty silly to sell public land for rual school funds when there is a lot of other gov programs that could be eliminated/reduced to fund them.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
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N8 said:
that's ok, they're going to be somewhere anyway. Not a bad idea to have a large battle tested US military presence in that area of the world
To the 2,500 families of dead soldiers, won't that be comfort to them...
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
N8 said:
I agree it is pretty silly to sell public land for rual school funds when there is a lot of other gov programs that could be eliminated/reduced to fund them.
Awesome. I really have no horse in this race, except that I dont want to be taxed to death, and I dont want all the woods chopped down. Is that so much to ask?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
sanjuro said:
To the 2,500 families of dead soldiers, won't that be comfort to them...

Just so you know, most of the families are proud of the sacrifice their sons and daughters have made. That's what comforts them more than anything.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
N8 said:
Just so you know, most of the families are proud of the sacrifice their sons and daughters have made. That's what comforts them more than anything.
Pffft. They're proud of their sons/daughters. That's not the same as being proud of the war.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
N8 said:
Just so you know, most of the families are proud of the sacrifice their sons and daughters have made. That's what comforts them more than anything.
For a guy who bitches about taxes (That's my goddamn money!) your sure throw around other peoples lives pretty casually.

I won't even bother to bring up all the mud peopl...oops, Iraqis that have died. Nice to see you have priorities straight.
 

Changleen

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Jan 9, 2004
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Faced with mounting civilian carnage, both from war crimes committed by demoralized and broken US troops and from the raging civil war unleashed by Bush's ill-fated illegal invasion of Iraq, the House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee has decided to waste another $50 billion to continue the lost war for five more months. Our elected "representatives" are so in thrall to the powerful military-industrial complex that no amount of American shame, pariah status and military defeat can shut off the flow of taxpayers' funds to the merchants of death.

Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are costing hard-pressed US taxpayers $300,000,000 per day! These wars are lost. Yet, imbecilic members of Congress are in the process of funding the war for another year. Multiply $300 million by 365 days and you get $109,500,000,000. These are not the full costs. The huge figure does not include the destroyed equipment, destroyed lives, and long-term care of the maimed and disabled.

Gentle reader, are you getting enough vicarious pleasure from the slaughter of Iraqi women and children to justify this price tag? Is murdering "ragheads" that important to you? If so, you are one sick person, just like every member of the Bush administration.

US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have killed far more civilians than they have resistance fighters. Bush administration spokespersons are crowing that they have killed Musab al-Zarqawi in an air strike. But al-Zarqawi was an al Qaeda leader, not a member of the Iraqi resistance. Al-Zarqawi's death will have no affect on the outcome in Iraq.

Far more important is the news that civil war in Baghdad alone claimed 1,400 deaths last month. Perhaps even more important is the news that the Taliban's resurgence has forced the Bush administration to launch more than 750 air strikes in Afghanistan in May. That is 25 air strikes per day! It is a foregone conclusion that most of the casualties are women and children.

America is drowning in the shame of war crimes. One monstrous slaughter of civilians after another, each denied and covered up until brought to light by photos and eye witnesses. The once proud US Marines, unable to defeat the resistance that is picking them off one by one, is now a frustrated, demoralized force that is getting even by murdering 3-month old babies and old women.

The Council of Europe has issued its report on the Bush administration's policy of kidnapping "suspected terrorists" and spiriting them off to tyrannical regimes to be tortured. US State Dept spokesperson, Sean McCormick, whose job it is to justify the criminal conduct of the Bush administration, said that he was "disappointed" in the report. Sean seemed genuinely puzzled that Europe's oldest political organization would second guess the sound judgment of the virtuous Bush administration or protest US violations of international law and human rights.

The only reason Americans can look themselves in the mirror is that they are clueless and have little idea of what is being done in their name. One-third of the US population actually believes that Iraq was behind 9/11 and that Bush found the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Apparently, a large percentage of the US population believes that Iran has nuclear weapons and that America is in danger of being attacked by Iran. No democracy can work when people take their responsibility as citizen so lightly as to be totally ignorant.

Formerly conservative, now proto-Nazi, publications such as National Review and the Wall Street Journal editorial page, keep pounding the war drums, as does right-wing talk radio and neocon propaganda organs such as the Weekly Standard and Fox "News." The few facts that emerge in the interstices of the war propaganda are quickly spun away. Slaughter of civilians? Just a few bad apples. We will fix that with seminars for the troops on military ethics and core values.

When will you speak out against the U.S. death camps and war atrocities?

Troop withdrawals? As soon as the undefined mission is completed.

No weapons of mass destruction? Don't worry about it. We had to have some excuse to invade Iraq and to "build democracy" so that America would be safe.

World opinion? No opinion counts but ours.

Red ink? No sweat. We can borrow more from China. Our growing indebtedness is proof that our power makes us a preferred debtor.

Bush supporters dismiss anyone who tells them the truth as a traitor. Bush supporters are as dependent on propaganda as substance abusers are on drugs and alcohol. Try weaning Bush supporters from the obvious lies that are the basis of this administration, and they will call you every name in the book.

They are proud to be Americans. Lies and war crimes are an American right. And you had better shut up or those Halliburton-built concentration camps will be your new home.

Dr. Roberts is a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal and a former assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury. He is the co-author of "The Tyranny of Good Intentions."
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
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Changleen: Defends a guy for putting heroin into an unconscious woman's arm in one thread, and lambasts liberating soldiers in the next.

Where is this twisted world you post from?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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BurlyShirley said:
Changleen: Defends a guy for putting heroin into an unconscious woman's arm in one thread, and lambasts liberating soldiers in the next.

Where is this twisted world you post from?
I wasn't defending him, I was saying the paper almost definately lied about what was actually going on. That's what those rags do. They are on a journalistic par with the National Enquirer.

And 'liberating' :p :p The Iraqis, after 4 years are now free to go about their daily business in safety now eh? Yup, nice job with the 'liberating' there...
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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N8 said:
Just so you know, most of the families are proud of the sacrifice their sons and daughters have made. That's what comforts them more than anything.
Then why not institute the draft and invade China next? Then more American families can share in the pride and the funeral expenses.

Keep in mind I work only a couple of miles from Cindy Sheenan. Or are you going to Coulterizer her?

I really have no answer to when we should leave Iraq. Will our handpicked Iraqi government survive when we leave? Will it ever survive without our direct military support?

That's a question we should have answered before our "Mission Accomplished".
 

ragin-sagin

Monkey
Oct 2, 2003
390
0
NZ
N8 said:
I agree it is pretty silly to sell public land for rual school funds when there is a lot of other gov programs that could be eliminated/reduced to fund them.
You tree huggin hippy. Who told you that was a bad idea; Al Franken?
 

ragin-sagin

Monkey
Oct 2, 2003
390
0
NZ
N8 said:
Just so you know, most of the families are proud of the sacrifice their sons and daughters have made. That's what comforts them more than anything.
Wow...you never cease to amaze me.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
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sanjuro said:
That's a question we should have answered before our "Mission Accomplished".
Why do people keep missing the point of this?

By that, they meant we had beat the Iraqi military. Which we did. The 4th largest army in the world, we destroyed in a couple of days. We accomplished that mission. Never did they say, "Woohoo, no more violence in Iraq" or anything of the sort. G-zus!
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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BurlyShirley said:
Why do people keep missing the point of this?

By that, they meant we had beat the Iraqi military. Which we did. The 4th largest army in the world, we destroyed in a couple of days. We accomplished that mission. Never did they say, "Woohoo, no more violence in Iraq" or anything of the sort. G-zus!
Right.

We beat Germany: no more fighting
We beat Japan: no more fighting
We beat Afganistan: 393 coalition deaths
We beat Iraq: less than 100 dead during invasion, 2600 afterwards.

What was the mission, destroy the Republican Guard or defeat the Iraqis and bring peace to the region?
 

ragin-sagin

Monkey
Oct 2, 2003
390
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NZ
Well put Sanjuro. Was our mission to invade Iraq, wipe out the guard and leave?
The 4th largest army: right behind Madagascar.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
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sanjuro said:
Right.

We beat Germany: no more fighting
We beat Japan: no more fighting
We beat Afganistan: 393 deaths
We beat Iraq: less than 100 dead during invasion, 2600 afterwards.

What was the mission, destroy the Republican Guard or defeat the Iraqis and bring peace to the region?
You refuse to acknowledge a simple fact. There's no point in arguing. Obviously defeating the military was a great victory, but no one wants to acknowledge that. They just want something to bash, so go for it. Have fun.
 

ragin-sagin

Monkey
Oct 2, 2003
390
0
NZ
BurlyShirley said:
Obviously defeating the military was a great victory, but no one wants to acknowledge that.
Its right up there with the greatest military victories ever! Like second only to the whuppin we put on the Phillipino's back in the day!
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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BurlyShirley said:
You refuse to acknowledge a simple fact. There's no point in arguing. Obviously defeating the military was a great victory, but no one wants to acknowledge that. They just want something to bash, so go for it. Have fun.
Shirley, after 10 years or whatever of sanctions and constant aerial harasment by the US and UK their Army was pretty much fvcked...
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
BurlyShirley said:
You refuse to acknowledge a simple fact. There's no point in arguing. Obviously defeating the military was a great victory, but no one wants to acknowledge that. They just want something to bash, so go for it. Have fun.
Brazil beat Japan today too. Obviously one of the greatest achievements in soccer history. It's right up there with winning the world cup. I hear they are going to be celebrating in Rio all night long...
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
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TN
Silver said:
Brazil beat Japan today too. Obviously one of the greatest achievements in soccer history. It's right up there with winning the world cup. I hear they are going to be celebrating in Rio all night long...
Yeah. That's completely irrelevant to the argument at hand. Nice job as usual. The whole "mission accomplished" thing AGAIN was in regard to the defeat of the iraqi military. Not that iraq was completely safe. Way to miss the point.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
I think it has more to do with Bush dancing naked on the deck of a carrier screaming "We won, we won!", as 2500 more troops are about to be killed...