Session 88 vs Round Tube DHR

norbar · Jan 18, 2012

Session 88 pedals awesome? The shock must help that a lot. Maybe with a proper shock tune (Avy tuned 5th or dhx) the dhr will pedal the same.

Also resale value on an older session? Which year? Last time I looked their resale value wasn't that good. Also DHR is already cheap so I doubt it will loose much of it's value. It may take longer to sell but it will sell.

As for the round tube dhr you can allways drop the bb height with offset shock eyelets. They cost next to nothing.

I'd go with the dhr since you seem to like it more.. Unless you really can't sell it around where you live.

Udi · Jan 18, 2012

I'm not too clued up on the Session, but the round tubed DHR is very poppy (probably the #1 DH bike for pop I've ridden) - I don't think it's a bad thing, but doesn't really seem to fit your criteria.

The Sunday and DW-DHR are more planted in comparison.

norbar · Jan 18, 2012

Look around the forums since the round tubed dhrs were really popular around here. Someone must have done it. As for the session 88 - yes it is very poppy, never ridden a properly sprung dhr for me.

I agree with Udi. If you want something that sticks to the ground better and is easier to sell get a Sunday or maybe a new glory(though it's not really a plow bike in my opinion. Still quite a lot of pop ) and get a works components/k9/whatever headset for it.

William42 · Jan 18, 2012

haven't read much of the thread, but they're both kind of similar. And they're both on the "poppy" side of bicycles. The session is slightly more linear and probably wont get hung up on bumps QUITE as much, but they are both relatively low pivot progressive bikes. Hell even the geo is fairly similar. If you're talking about a brand new session 88, then they're fairly different, but if you're looking at used, then they're pretty similar. If the BB didn't bother you, why should it stop you from getting a bike? You can set up either for bump compliance and tracking, but neither will ever be a total monster truck like a V10.

frorider · Jan 18, 2012

if you don't mind the tall stack height, you could run an angled headset on the round tube DHR and simultaneously slacken the HA and drop the BB.

i really liked mine...I haven't put much effort into selling it (think i have an ad here) after getting a DW DHR. speaking as someone who doesn't huck to flat, i found the shock leverage curve on the DHR allowed me to run a significant amount of sag w/o bottom out issues. so in actual riding it felt a little lower and slacker than the unsagged numbers. i think it's one of the few used frames out there that doesn't lose all resale value over time. i would have run eccentric reducers on it but my CCDB wasn't set up for that possibility.

davec113 · Jan 18, 2012

I have a Session and briefly rode a dhr.

One thing you're missing on the pros and cons is the spectacular stiffness of the Session 88 frame, in comparison the dhr is not nearly as stiff, especially the rear triangle. Despite the Session's stiffness, it also is a very light frame, I'd guess the dhr is a couple pounds heavier, but that's just a guess.

Wa-aw said:
"just about every Session rider I see that flies off a high speed hump seems to do so quite nose heavy".

This is ridiculous, sorry.

staike · Jan 18, 2012

davec113 said:
This is ridiculous, sorry.

Definitely get a high-end shock if you buy the Session. I got mine with a DHX 4.0 and it was OK, but I got that "bucked over the front" feeling on certain high speed hits. After a while the DHX gave up and I upgraded to a DSP Dueler with adjustable hsc and lsc. What I liked about the DHX is that it kept the bike up in the travel in the first 4 inches (position sensitive) and i can achieve this through the whole range of travel with the lsc adjuster. The "bucked over the front" feeling from the DHX totally disappeared after finetuning the hsc. I can now run the reasonably fast without the shock blowing through the travel on high speed hits and then returning super quick (like the dhx did). The bike feels very stiff, plush and confidence inspiring. The bike feels really "balanced". I'm not totally set on the rebound yet, I might just slow it down a tad and decrease compression a bit. But it feels really good as it is now.

So with a good shock like an RC4 or CCDB you can tune the shock to feel excactly like you want it. I would choose the CCDB because it got both hi and lo speed rebound. So you can set the rebound fast in the beginning and run some lsc without to get good bump compliance and no wallowing (my session have never wallowed though, but my previous iron horse did it a lot). and run a slightly slower hsr and less hsc to absorb big hits. that's what i would run at least. the session feels nice and progressive, i only get full travel on really hard hits, and even then i can't really feel it bottom out.

Sandwich · Jan 18, 2012

What about braking performance? Do you like brake squat and lack of shock absorption, or do you want fully active? Personally I'd go with the Session for that reason, but other people like brake squat and what it does for handling. I prefer the more active rear end for braking traction.

staike · Jan 18, 2012

Can give a little input on that... we have a tight off-camber turn full of slippery roots. Earlier I had to brake a long time before and cruise through it at low speed, otherwise the rear wheel would skip on the roots and chances often was that I washed out or lost control. With the Session I can ram into it at a much higher speed and get down sideways with the rear brake almost locked and the wheel still sticks to the ground. I've probably hit that corner 20 times with the Session and I have not once lost control. Except when the roots are wet though, hah.

But I do know a guy that likes his rear end to stiffen a little under braking. He's a much better rider than me and prefers the feeling of that he can use the rear brake more to "break lose" of his line etc. If you know what I mean.

astoria · Jan 18, 2012

Here's a suggestion: get the session, if you don't like the performance, sell it then get the dhr.

kidwoo · Jan 19, 2012

The BB on my round tube DHR was lower than what the session is.

And it's WAAAYYYY more 'poppy' than a session.

That's speaking from experience though, so you know......take that with a grain of salt and all.

Sonic Reducer · Jan 19, 2012

astoria said:
Here's a suggestion: get the session, if you don't like the performance, sell it then get the dhr.

hows he going to sell the session? it'll be full of dents before he knows whether he likes it or not.

bizutch · Jan 19, 2012

You said a round tube DHR that looks 2001??? I'm way confused here. When I sold mine, it still was one of the most gorgeous bikes on the planet. I know you're avoiding posting a pic maybe in case someone else tries to buy it before you, but I need a pic of this DHR.

I still am very much in love with my 07-08 and so was anybody who rode it or saw it. So, confused by the "outdated looks" thing.
:picsstfu:

p-spec · Jan 19, 2012

Sandwich said:
What about braking performance? Do you like brake squat and lack of shock absorption, or do you want fully active? Personally I'd go with the Session for that reason, but other people like brake squat and what it does for handling. I prefer the more active rear end for braking traction.

ABP jacks,I think vpp less to be honnest

ALEXIS_DH · Jan 19, 2012

round tube dhr rear end = flexy noodle (compared to my gambler, at least).

its almost as flexy as a scott voltage fr (which is VERY flexy, the tire buzzes and eats the paint from the chainstays).

kidwoo · Jan 19, 2012

Weird. When I sold my round tube dhr there wasn't a single tire mark on the chainstay.
How often do you land jumps sideways? (serious question)

They're not the stiffest rear ends or anything but they're not noodles.

The sessions are stiffer though.

ALEXIS_DH · Jan 19, 2012

kidwoo said:
Weird. When I sold my round tube dhr there wasn't a single tire mark on the chainstay.
How often do you land jumps sideways? (serious question)

They're not the stiffest rear ends or anything but they're not noodles.

The sessions are stiffer though.

am a bit of a stiff-legged hack... i land sideways a lot, but i didnt rub the paint of any DHR.
I did rub the paint off my voltage fr (left a 1" polished spot).

i rode my friends dhr and the rear end felt flexy. it was flexy enough to bend a little with my hands, pretty much like I could bend my voltage rear end. I cant to that to my gambler or my other friend´s demo. those are rock solid.

kidwoo · Jan 19, 2012

ALEXIS_DH said:
i rode my friends dhr and the rear end felt flexy. it was flexy enough to bend a little with my hands,

You mean grabbing the wheel and moving the wheel back and forth laterally or literally grabbing the swingarm and bending it?

If you can do that without the wheel, you must be ripped!

William42 · Jan 19, 2012

having literally played around on kidwoos old roundtube DHR on saturday I will say that they're both pretty poppy bikes, and that, while I wont speak for EVERY round tube DHR, and you could easily have been on a defective one, HIS old DHR was no noodle. And wheels made a bigger difference in stiffness then either frame (comparing his to my session). My guess is whatever one you rode, needed a tensioned wheel. Most bikes start feeling flexy when your wheels aren't tensioned.

davec113 · Jan 19, 2012

I also wouldn't say the dhr is a noodle, but it's not as stiff as a Session... or as light.

William42 · Jan 19, 2012

davec113 said:
I also wouldn't say the dhr is a noodle, but it's not as stiff as a Session... or as light.

I have a session. Its my favorite bike I've ever ridden. If I can afford another one (probably not) when it breaks, I will buy one. I would highly recommend one. That said: they were close enough in stiffness that I felt wheels were a way bigger contribution then anything else.

And also, chances are, whichever you get, with the same components it will sit between 37 and 41. And if I have a bike in that range, I'm sure as sh1t not going to let it hold me back. Maybe one day I'll get to have a 32lb bike. Thats a pretty big number, and I'm sure I'll notice it. Anything less then 3 lbs, if its not in the wheels, I don't really notice it.

kidwoo · Jan 19, 2012

William42 said:
having literally played around on kidwoos old roundtube DHR on saturday

How's jesse doin?

Sorry I missed you guys this weekend. I was sucked into camera faggery and didn't even end up touching a bicycle.

William42 · Jan 20, 2012

You missed out on a good wheel taco

based on the lack of tracks in the snow, I was the only person stupid enough to do one of the upper drops in snowy conditions. And I came up short

Speaking of, for you "session breaks easy" dudes, does it count as "riding my bike hard" if I'm on my 6th rim in a year and a half? I hit big jumps and simultaneously am a hack!

Anyway, this thread is pretty much dead, but let us know what you get wa-wa, and give it some closure. You'll be happy either either, they're two of the more poppy jump bikes on the market, but both have pretty solid handling and geometry, you can get both of them low in the corners and corner hard. You should be pretty happy with either.

kidwoo · Jan 20, 2012

William42 said:
does it count as "riding my bike hard" if I'm on my 6th rim in a year and a half?

I think that just counts as bad aim.

William42 · Jan 20, 2012

hahaha, its true, but given the number of times I've heard of people breaking chainstays on the internet, I'm surprised I'm not on my 40th.

norbar · Jan 20, 2012

William42 said:
hahaha, its true, but given the number of times I've heard of people breaking chainstays on the internet, I'm surprised I'm not on my 40th.

That broken part thread made me feel like I must be doing something wrong.

Also I don't know where the broken session myth came from. They dent easy, especialy the first year. That is true but broken ones are very rare. Which is suprising considered how many of them are out there. (though that myth lowers their resale value. At least around here)

Udi · Jan 21, 2012

kidwoo said:
They're not the stiffest rear ends or anything but they're not noodles.

Whatever you want to call it, they are pretty damn flexy - especially considering they're a solid triangulated swingarm with a 150x12 rearend. I've seen DH bikes without either of those features do better in the stiffness department.

That said I didn't really notice it in use.

As you'd know though, the new DW ones are noticeably stiffer (as are any other recent DH bikes), so they obviously sorted it out.

kidwoo · Jan 21, 2012

Udi said:
Whatever you want to call it, they are pretty damn flexy - especially considering they're a solid triangulated swingarm with a 150x12 rearend. I've seen DH bikes without either of those features do better in the stiffness department.

That said I didn't really notice it in use.

As you'd know though, the new DW ones are noticeably stiffer (as are any other recent DH bikes), so they obviously sorted it out.

Sorted what out?

The flexy feeling that you never actually felt while riding?

I definitely could feel the round tubers flexing more than even the older square stock ones. It was only in particular instances but it's there. Not even close to what it feels like riding a few other brands I can think of though.

And yes......the new ones feel like they literally have only one degree of freedom.....the suspension. At my weight at least......

Udi · Jan 21, 2012

I'm sure I could feel it if it were my own bike, setup with my own gear, but it's hard to feel small variations when you ride someone else's bike / a different setup.

In any case, I think it's good that it's sorted out on the new one.

iRider · Jan 21, 2012

Why is everybody so obsessed with owning the stiffest frame/wheel? Are you all 200 #s +?
There were rumors that the Athertons tried to make their new Commencals flex more because they were so stiff that it had a detrimental effect on traction. Nico V. was repeatedly mentioning similar stuff in interviews. A bunch of WC riders try to build controlled flexing wheels as does Mavic.

kidwoo · Jan 21, 2012

davec113 · Jan 21, 2012

Wa-Aw said:
Having gone through 3 or 4 bikes of varying stiffness in the past 6 months I think it's not really right to say "I feel flex" while riding. I couldn't really tell you what a flexy bike feels like even if I ride a noodle, but sure as hell know what a stiff one feels like! Guess it's easier to say what a flexy bike isn't doing right rather than saying what it's doing wrong.

Went from Scythe (super stiff!) -> M9 (Decently stiff) -> Uzzi (noodle)

I had an Uzzi, it is a POS. Definitely a noodle and it tracked like ****, although part of that was the Boxxer. I love how stiff and solid my Session is, combined with the Fox 40 it goes exactly where I want it to, almost like the bike just does what I'm thinking.

davec113 · Jan 21, 2012

staike said:
Definitely get a high-end shock if you buy the Session. I got mine with a DHX 4.0 and it was OK, but I got that "bucked over the front" feeling on certain high speed hits. After a while the DHX gave up and I upgraded to a DSP Dueler with adjustable hsc and lsc. What I liked about the DHX is that it kept the bike up in the travel in the first 4 inches (position sensitive) and i can achieve this through the whole range of travel with the lsc adjuster. The "bucked over the front" feeling from the DHX totally disappeared after finetuning the hsc. I can now run the reasonably fast without the shock blowing through the travel on high speed hits and then returning super quick (like the dhx did). The bike feels very stiff, plush and confidence inspiring. The bike feels really "balanced". I'm not totally set on the rebound yet, I might just slow it down a tad and decrease compression a bit. But it feels really good as it is now.

So with a good shock like an RC4 or CCDB you can tune the shock to feel excactly like you want it. I would choose the CCDB because it got both hi and lo speed rebound. So you can set the rebound fast in the beginning and run some lsc without to get good bump compliance and no wallowing (my session have never wallowed though, but my previous iron horse did it a lot). and run a slightly slower hsr and less hsc to absorb big hits. that's what i would run at least. the session feels nice and progressive, i only get full travel on really hard hits, and even then i can't really feel it bottom out.

The "custom" dhx5 on the '09 Session 88 is actually pretty good. I haven't tried differnt shocks on my Session, but a pro I was riding with a couple years ago started out with the dhx5 and also used vivid coil and air shocks (the air was a prototype at the time), and he recommended keeping the dhx. He said he doesn't like dhx in general, but felt it worked really well on the Session. I don't know about the dhx4 you had, didn't know that was even an option, must have come on a Session 8?

norbar · Jan 21, 2012

Yeah I was suprised how good that shock felt. Especially since I hated the dhx.

Session 88 vs Round Tube DHR

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