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Sexy TW catalog bike makes another appearance

daisycutter

daisycutter

Turbo Monkey
Apr 8, 2006
1,657
129
New York City
Found this on another site

KHS Bicycles has finally announced the availability and specs of their new KHS DH300. The bike that Logan Binggeli was piloting last year will become available at the end of April with one exception, it will not be sold in the United States. (Thanks DW!).

Here is the official release, albeit translated from Italian so bare with it.

"After three years of gestation, a successful season for Logan Binggeli, a rising star in the world of gravity and cutting edge KHS Gravity Racing Team, which competed in 2010 with a prototype here is finally available the new 300 DH downhill which is called to replace the glorious DH 200. The bike has been completely renovated in the frame, the geometry and components. Starting from the case in 6061, certainly lighter but no less robust due to the massive use of the pipe processing through the hydroforming process, we can find a 210mm rear travel guaranteed by the Dual-link pattern and the shock Fox DHX RC4 240mm ; relatively all'ammortizzzatore KHS provides a different spring for size, starting from 350lbs to 450 for the S to L. Another change from the past, the massive presence of members of the Kore, fast-growing brand in Taiwan due to the quality of design and lightness of its products. The DH 300 is equipped with wheels, seat, seatpost, handlebars and stem to direct attack on the fork RockShox BoXXer all of Kore. Provided unique colouration, 3 sizes available."

Specs are as follows:

Frame: 6061 hydroformed aluminum, 210mm travel, 12mm axle rear, ISCG-05 standard
Fork: RockShox BoXXer R2C2 with 200mm travel, 20mm through axle, sleeve from 1.5?
Shock: Fox DHX RC4 with 350 lbs spring from the chassis to fit S, M to 400lbs by spring, spring from 450lbs to L
Headset: FSA Orbit Z 1.5
Wheels: Kore Torsion -
Tires: Kenda Nevegal 26 × 2.5? - 60TPI, Kevlar
Front derailleur: none
Rear derailleur: Sram X9
Shifters: Sram X7
Chain: KMC Z99 with Missing Link
Crankset: Truvativ Holzfeller 1.1 with bash guard, 36 teeth, 170mm cranks
Chain guide: E-Thirteen Components oem LS1 B 105, 32-40 teeth, ISCG-05
Bottom Bracket: Truvativ Howitzer by 83mm
Cassette: Sram PG-950, 11-26 teeth, 9 speed
Handlebar: Kore Torsion Race, 20mm rise, 800mm length
Stem: Kore RockShox Direct Mount, length 50mm
Grips: Weirwolf W175
Saddle: Kore Rail T Big Nose white with gray inserts
Seat post: Aluminum Kore, zero offset 31.6x300mm
Brakes: Avid Elixir 5 hydraulic disc brakes with 203mm rotors
Available Sizes: S (15), M (15.5), L (16)
 
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aenema

aenema

almost 100% positive
Sep 5, 2008
306
111
Like it is a bad thing that DW protects his work. Some would be hard on other bike manufacturers for stealing his design. It is what it is, the man came up with something others wanted and patented it. If you aren't going to pay the piper, you limit your market. Not DW's fault for playing by the rules and it is KHS's choice to develop and limit their market so you can thank them for it not coming to the States.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
1,606
Warsaw :/
aenema said:
Like it is a bad thing that DW protects his work. Some would be hard on other bike manufacturers for stealing his design. It is what it is, the man came up with something others wanted and patented it. If you aren't going to pay the piper, you limit your market. Not DW's fault for playing by the rules and it is KHS's choice to develop and limit their market so you can thank them for it not coming to the States.
Click to expand...
I think your Irony Meter needs a battery change.


btw. KHS didn't design that bike and the only other "new gen" dh catalog frame is alu-mate aka the new dabomb.
 
aenema

aenema

almost 100% positive
Sep 5, 2008
306
111
I don't mean to sound passionate about it one way or the other, just pointing out another perspective. And regardless of the fact it is a catalog frame, KHS made the choice, they new it was a no go for the States and went forward with it. Not that I am blaming them, frame looks good. But in all reality, it is not DW's fault for other people using his patented design and having to follow the law by not selling where that patent has jurisdiction.
 
aenema

aenema

almost 100% positive
Sep 5, 2008
306
111
daisycutter said:
"available at the end of April with one exception, it will not be sold in the United States. (Thanks DW!)."
Click to expand...
maybe I took this too seriously then, I just saw the second reference to this and wanted to comment.
 
nmpearson

nmpearson

Monkey
Dec 30, 2006
213
8
I rode the fezzari version...freakin fun bike and pedals great! I do find it interesting that khs can't get it to be sold here. They've been spending money for years to use the specialized patent. I agree...it sounds like DW just doesn't want the frame here in the USA. Too bad bc my shop carries khs and i was mega stoked to grab one and give it a go
 
toowacky

toowacky

Monkey
Feb 20, 2010
200
4
Pac NW
http://seaotter.mtbr.com/2011/05/03/khs-dh-300-downhill-bike-at-sea-otter/

Interesting "Comments" for this article... including some responses from DW himself:
DW said:
...

With regards to KHS or any other brand that is interested in using one of my designs I really do appreciate that interest and it is truly flattering. The reality is that I have commitments to my existing partners, and lack the time to actually work on or begin any new projects. You see, when a company “licenses” one of my designs, the get my time and engineering / testing commitment with it. I personally design the kinematics and validate all shock specs on all models for every brand that I work with. Just because a bike “looks like” a dw-link, or even falls under the scope of the patent, doesn’t mean that it will perform in the way that riders have come to expect a dw-link to perform. My job is to make sure that every bike that carries the dw-link logo meets the high level of performance that riders expect from the design. As one can imagine, that takes a huge time commitment and I want to do the best job that I possibly can for my partners. Like I said, I just don’t have the time to take on new projects like this.

I wish KHS the best of luck moving forward and I truly appreciate the level of professionalism that they have shown with regards to IP. It seems that many companies could learn a great deal about ethics from KHS’ example.

Dave Weagle
Click to expand...
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,064
5,974
borcester rhymes
i love the tags. so much of "the bike industry" is just crap farmed out to taiwan...can you blame people for wanting to take advantage of side-stepping the middleman, who only applies graphics and cool logos, all while saving $1-2000? Seems like a fair deal to me.

I'd much rather pay the premium for a hand-welded US made frame...but they don't exist anymore. It'll be a bit like the housing market...everything priced so high the bottom drops out and people stop buying new or go for the cheap option.

God forbid you don't pay for patents and the associated consulting fees, and maybe instead rely on your own ingenuity, weld your own ****, then these cheapo bikes wouldn't be a strong threat. How does FTW offer a handcrafted bike for ~$500 less than other taiwan-"factory" items? Somebody's collecting some serious overhead here...
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
1,606
Warsaw :/
Sandwich said:
God forbid you don't pay for patents and the associated consulting fees, and maybe instead rely on your own ingenuity, weld your own ****, then these cheapo bikes wouldn't be a strong threat. How does FTW offer a handcrafted bike for ~$500 less than other taiwan-"factory" items? Somebody's collecting some serious overhead here...
Click to expand...
Frank may be the better welder but looking at his frames I get an idea he has much smaller acess to the technology available in taiwan. Companies go there because it is convinient, not that much cheaper really. I used to ride a european made frame, now I ride a tw made bike. It actually rides better. Im glad to pay more for a better riding bike.

btw. How many companies really buy patents instead of designing something of their own? Maybe 20%?



As for Franks cheaper frames - does he have a distributor or sale direct? If he sales direct as I think he is the answer is dead obvious.



Getting back on topic - Ive seen a ton of CTM branded bikes in Slovakia last weekend. Though it is not really suprising since they it is not their first astro frame.
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Sandwich said:
God forbid you don't pay for patents and the associated consulting fees, and maybe instead rely on your own ingenuity, weld your own ****, then these cheapo bikes wouldn't be a strong threat.
Click to expand...
I agree with most of what you said, but this is pure nonsense. How much do you think it costs to "pay for patents or consulting fees"? Go ahead throw a number out there.

I've been doing this for 10 years, and in all of the roles possible almost. I've worked directly for a company (Iron Horse), I've started owned, and hired exactly this type of employee (Evil and e*thirteen), and I've worked as a consultant in multiple capacities from business and design to aesthetics and marketing.

So. let me tell you the costs and finish this line of thinking right here and now.

It costs at a minimum, $60,000 - 70,000 USD salary, plus benefits (tack on 15% roughly) to have one on staff mechanical engineer who can proficiently use a leading CAD package, do some surfacing, and also create prints. Forget about suspension even, most companies just guess at it, like a game of pin the tail on the donkey. Ok put a pivot here, put a pivot there, looks good- ship it! Try finding all that in one guy, let alone someone with a sense of Industrial design. Believe me, it is damn hard to find that person, they are in high demand in all kinds of industries. One guy could do maybe 2-3 top level projects in one year, and that would be a huge stretch. HUGE STRETCH.

For the "consultants" that I know, they charge around $15-30K to do one bike model, from ID through prints. No benefits, nothing, and they do a heck of a job too. The cost savings is incredible.

To "pay for the patents", like if a person wanted to start a bike company today and license my dw-link design, imagine this. Say you want to make a bike like the FTW that you brought up. So you are going to use a single or double butted round toptube and do a couple squish forming operations in house, about as simple as it gets, right? Well the cost of using dw-link PLUS my included services is LESS THAN THE COST OF A TOP TUBE.

Believe me dude, nobody is getting rich in the bike industry, at least I'm not.. But it sure is fun and that's all that matters. I wouldn't go back to building robots with bombs on them for anything.

Also keep in mind that FTW sells direct.

Also GO BRUINS!
 
A

alpine slug

Monkey
Jun 10, 2011
190
0
dw said:
It costs at a minimum, $60,000 - 70,000 USD salary, plus benefits (tack on 15% roughly) to have one on staff mechanical engineer who can proficiently use a leading CAD package, do some surfacing, and also create prints.
Click to expand...
That's an awful lot of money for someone who can't do anything without using a computer.

I think you're not looking hard enough for talent. I know a lot of people who find 60k a lot of money and would be happy to work for less.

But if you limit your search to major US metro areas where inflation is king and greed is the queen, and everyone expects their starting salary to enable them to buy a Beemer and live in a McMansion, of course you will have to pay 70k. Of course.

And people say the bike industry isn't about getting rich. 70k is a lot of scratch, dude. And if you think it's not, your perspective is ****ed.
 
F

FarkinRyan

Monkey
Dec 15, 2003
611
192
Pemberton, BC
Dw: do you have a similar licensing agreement in place whereby I can get your expertise in making robots with bombs on them for less than the cost of a top tube?
 
W

wiscodh

Monkey
Jun 21, 2007
833
121
303
Actually his perspective is spot on. Engineering is one of the hardest and most demanding degrees out there along with medicine and law. The courses we are required to take are crazy.

Then to have someone with DW’s mind, and execution, is really a blessing to the industry. I really do think there is too much DW tire pumping on ridemonkey, but there is a reason for it. He is really amazing. Try talking on the phone with him, he blew my doors off in about 10 seconds. I was scrambling to keep up.

The bike industry pays peanuts, it is the same with all of the outdoor industry’s. We work here because we enjoy it, not to get rich. If I wanted to I could jump to the energy or aerospace, have less stress and make 30-40k more than I do right now.

I wish I could have worked more with dave, the situation just didn’t pan out. I could have learned a lot more.

To sum it up, you have no clue what the crap you are talking about.

Can i get a robot that will bring me a nice cold ipa on demand? <insert get a wife joke here>

alpine slug said:
That's an awful lot of money for someone who can't do anything without using a computer.

I think you're not looking hard enough for talent. I know a lot of people who find 60k a lot of money and would be happy to work for less.

But if you limit your search to major US metro areas where inflation is king and greed is the queen, and everyone expects their starting salary to enable them to buy a Beemer and live in a McMansion, of course you will have to pay 70k. Of course.

And people say the bike industry isn't about getting rich. 70k is a lot of scratch, dude. And if you think it's not, your perspective is ****ed.
Click to expand...
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
alpine slug said:
That's an awful lot of money for someone who can't do anything without using a computer.

I think you're not looking hard enough for talent. I know a lot of people who find 60k a lot of money and would be happy to work for less.

But if you limit your search to major US metro areas where inflation is king and greed is the queen, and everyone expects their starting salary to enable them to buy a Beemer and live in a McMansion, of course you will have to pay 70k. Of course.

And people say the bike industry isn't about getting rich. 70k is a lot of scratch, dude. And if you think it's not, your perspective is ****ed.
Click to expand...
I didn't say I was making 70K, that's the going rate for an engineer with the skills that I wrote of. That holds true on the East and West coasts of the USA and Canada. I agree that it is a LOT of money, but it certainly isn't going to be getting you anything close to a BMW! At least not where I live. Damn I spent $300 on groceries and $90 on gas this week!
 
Honus

Honus

Monkey
Jun 6, 2006
177
0
Boulder, CO
dw said:
I agree with most of what you said, but this is pure nonsense. How much do you think it costs to "pay for patents or consulting fees"? Go ahead throw a number out there.

I've been doing this for 10 years, and in all of the roles possible almost. I've worked directly for a company (Iron Horse), I've started owned, and hired exactly this type of employee (Evil and e*thirteen), and I've worked as a consultant in multiple capacities from business and design to aesthetics and marketing.

So. let me tell you the costs and finish this line of thinking right here and now.

It costs at a minimum, $60,000 - 70,000 USD salary, plus benefits (tack on 15% roughly) to have one on staff mechanical engineer who can proficiently use a leading CAD package, do some surfacing, and also create prints. Forget about suspension even, most companies just guess at it, like a game of pin the tail on the donkey. Ok put a pivot here, put a pivot there, looks good- ship it! Try finding all that in one guy, let alone someone with a sense of Industrial design. Believe me, it is damn hard to find that person, they are in high demand in all kinds of industries. One guy could do maybe 2-3 top level projects in one year, and that would be a huge stretch. HUGE STRETCH.

For the "consultants" that I know, they charge around $15-30K to do one bike model, from ID through prints. No benefits, nothing, and they do a heck of a job too. The cost savings is incredible.

To "pay for the patents", like if a person wanted to start a bike company today and license my dw-link design, imagine this. Say you want to make a bike like the FTW that you brought up. So you are going to use a single or double butted round toptube and do a couple squish forming operations in house, about as simple as it gets, right? Well the cost of using dw-link PLUS my included services is LESS THAN THE COST OF A TOP TUBE.

Believe me dude, nobody is getting rich in the bike industry, at least I'm not.. But it sure is fun and that's all that matters. I wouldn't go back to building robots with bombs on them for anything.

Also keep in mind that FTW sells direct.

Also GO BRUINS!
Click to expand...
That has to be one of the best posts I have ever read. Having owned my own components manufacturing company and done some consulting work I couldn't agree more. There is nothing that is easy in the bike business and a good design engineer that understands manufacturing is worth their weight in gold.

Robots are cool. Robots with bombs- not so cool...
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,064
5,974
borcester rhymes
dw said:
I agree with most of what you said, but this is pure nonsense. How much do you think it costs to "pay for patents or consulting fees"? Go ahead throw a number out there.
Click to expand...
look, I'm not trying to say that you aren't justified in protecting your work nor getting paid for its application. I'm not trying to say that that the DW link doesn't work or anything like that. My off-topic rant was because it's ok for ****ty bikes that aren't worked on by $70k/yr engineers to exist. I would never expect to get a $3200 DHR for the price of a Sette Vexx, but I also wouldn't expect the Vexx to perform as well as the DHR nor be as light.

to say that the industry is "over" because the same factories that churn out 50% of the high-tier DH give it a go themselves and offer low-buck options to riders is silly. Imagine being a beginner rider being able to get a bike that has most of the features of a very expensive ride, but without the fancy knobs or high end polish...that doesn't seem like the end to me, but rather the beginning for a lot of people who can't jump onto a $5900 DH sled or are scared off by buying a worked over used ride.

I apologize if I came off like I'm saying the work you and others do isn't justified or not worth the money, nor that the bikes you make aren't worth the premium that they cost. Just that the uber-high end market for DH is flooded, and the "industry"'s desire to bypass the "make bikes" for "turn a profit" is what would sooner lead to its undoing than a couple of cheapy overweight frames.
 
A

alpine slug

Monkey
Jun 10, 2011
190
0
wiscodh said:
Actually his perspective is spot on. Engineering is one of the hardest and most demanding degrees out there along with medicine and law. The courses we are required to take are crazy.
Click to expand...
As someone who did a year of engineering before switching to biology and then later got a law degree, I disagree with your estimation of how "tough" engineering is. Disagree quite strongly. Of course engineers try to justify their high salaries with a "P.E." designation, as if there were "amateur" and "professional" gradations that really mattered. It's all very funny.

I'm not disparaging Weagle. If you read the Iron Horse Bikes thread recently here in the DH forum you'll see that I admire what he did with IH and especially the Sunday.

I'm talking about the relative naivete --or perhaps stupidity-- of thinking the only talent worthwhile is the guy or gal who demands a high salary. That thinking shows a real stupidity about what makes for talent, and what does not.

It's worth keeping something in perspective: we're talking about bicycles. Not changing the world. Bicycles. And full-suspension ones at that. Which means we're talking about what, on the global scale, basically, is a rich-man's-toy.

If you think that is "demanding" in the big picture, I laugh at your childishness.
 
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samnation

samnation

Monkey
Jan 25, 2009
139
0
Somewhere in KANURDUR
dw said:
I didn't say I was making 70K, that's the going rate for an engineer with the skills that I wrote of. That holds true on the East and West coasts of the USA and Canada. I agree that it is a LOT of money, but it certainly isn't going to be getting you anything close to a BMW! At least not where I live. Damn I spent $300 on groceries and $90 on gas this week!
Click to expand...
AW man 300 bucks can I come over you could feed me for 3 weeks.
 
W

wiscodh

Monkey
Jun 21, 2007
833
121
303
you took a year of engineering. Congrats on physics 1+2, calc 1+2, and statics!!!! thems is tough, ya know.

i am talking about controls, heat transfer, faliure dynamics, composites, CAD/FEA, physical chemisty, IC engines, polymer science and engineering. Thoes are just the undergrad courses that make me tingle inside.

Hoenstly the schooling means pewp in the real world. That peice of paper just gets you in the door. the experiance and execution of the desired results, make a great engineer.

No doubt that you can find a cheaper price, most of the time, you get what you pay for.


alpine slug said:
As someone who did a year of engineering before switching to biology and then later got a law degree, I disagree with your estimation of how "tough" engineering is. Disagree quite strongly. Of course engineers try to justify their high salaries with a "P.E." designation, as if there were "amateur" and "professional" gradations that really mattered. It's all very funny.

I'm not disparaging Weagle. If you read the Iron Horse Bikes thread recently here in the DH forum you'll see that I admire what he did with IH and especially the Sunday.

I'm talking about the relative naivete --or perhaps stupidity-- of thinking the only talent worthwhile is the guy or gal who demands a high salary. That thinking shows a real stupidity about what makes for talent, and what does not.
Click to expand...
 
Honus

Honus

Monkey
Jun 6, 2006
177
0
Boulder, CO
alpine slug said:
As someone who did a year of engineering before switching to biology and then later got a law degree, I disagree with your estimation of how "tough" engineering is. Disagree quite strongly. Of course engineers try to justify their high salaries with a "P.E." designation, as if there were "amateur" and "professional" gradations that really mattered. It's all very funny.

I'm not disparaging Weagle. If you read the Iron Horse Bikes thread recently here in the DH forum you'll see that I admire what he did with IH and especially the Sunday.

I'm talking about the relative naivete --or perhaps stupidity-- of thinking the only talent worthwhile is the guy or gal who demands a high salary. That thinking shows a real stupidity about what makes for talent, and what does not.

It's worth keeping something in perspective: we're talking about bicycles. Not changing the world. Bicycles. And full-suspension ones at that. Which means we're talking about what, on the global scale, basically, is a rich-man's-toy.

If you think that is "demanding" in the big picture, I laugh at your childishness.
Click to expand...
I could write a book on this comment... but I'll leave it that I think you misunderstood what he was saying.
 
CBJ

CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,874
4,214
Copenhagen, Denmark
alpine slug said:
That's an awful lot of money for someone who can't do anything without using a computer.

I think you're not looking hard enough for talent. I know a lot of people who find 60k a lot of money and would be happy to work for less.

But if you limit your search to major US metro areas where inflation is king and greed is the queen, and everyone expects their starting salary to enable them to buy a Beemer and live in a McMansion, of course you will have to pay 70k. Of course.

And people say the bike industry isn't about getting rich. 70k is a lot of scratch, dude. And if you think it's not, your perspective is ****ed.
Click to expand...
I do not know where you live but a nurse in NYC makes 75k. So 70k for a engineer who can do everything Dave mentions is not crazy at all. Sure there are a lot of people who are happy to work for less but can they do the job.

You might be able to buy a beemer if you are on your own but if you have a family to feed 75k are quickly gone. I am not sure we are talking about starting salary either.

You are new on here right? Maybe tell us a little bit about yourself like age, current job and where you live. It will make it easier to understand what you are trying to say.
 
CBJ

CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,874
4,214
Copenhagen, Denmark
You can find similar examples outside of NYC too. A lot of NYC salaries are not as crazy as people think. I think NYC is a lot like the rest of the country where few people make a lot and most of us don't.
 
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