[norbar]

That's an awful lot of money for someone who can't do anything without using a computer.

I think you're not looking hard enough for talent. I know a lot of people who find 60k a lot of money and would be happy to work for less.

But if you limit your search to major US metro areas where inflation is king and greed is the queen, and everyone expects their starting salary to enable them to buy a Beemer and live in a McMansion, of course you will have to pay 70k. Of course.

And people say the bike industry isn't about getting rich. 70k is a lot of scratch, dude. And if you think it's not, your perspective is ****ed.

Dude. A lot of money for someone who cant do anything without using a computer? Yeah find me village educated architect or an areo engineer that works without a computer and I will put his head into an oven. Seriously are you a troll? I cant think of an engineer that should design stuff without a computer.

Also - supply and demand. The supply of qualified engineers is thin as ****. Even in east yurp which supposedly is a great place to import them from.


btw. the base enginering salary in poland for a designer not a student is 36k up and our living cost and average salaries are more than half of the us.

As for your easy engineering comment - 1st year? pfff. Doing the ib program makes you auto pass(ie. you dont have to pass them, some unis just assume you dont need to redo it) a large chunk of the subjects that is how serious first year is

 

[zdubyadubya]

the amount of ignorance in this post is astounding.

As someone who did a year of engineering before switching to biology and then later got a law degree, I disagree with your estimation of how "tough" engineering is. Disagree quite strongly. Of course engineers try to justify their high salaries with a "P.E." designation, as if there were "amateur" and "professional" gradations that really mattered. It's all very funny.

I'm not disparaging Weagle. If you read the Iron Horse Bikes thread recently here in the DH forum you'll see that I admire what he did with IH and especially the Sunday.

I'm talking about the relative naivete --or perhaps stupidity-- of thinking the only talent worthwhile is the guy or gal who demands a high salary. That thinking shows a real stupidity about what makes for talent, and what does not.

It's worth keeping something in perspective: we're talking about bicycles. Not changing the world. Bicycles. And full-suspension ones at that. Which means we're talking about what, on the global scale, basically, is a rich-man's-toy.

If you think that is "demanding" in the big picture, I laugh at your childishness.

 

[alpine slug]

the amount of ignorance in this post is astounding.

Instead of ad hominem, how about some logic? What's "ignorant" in my post? Offer your proofs.

Dude. A lot of money for someone who cant do anything without using a computer? Yeah find me village educated architect or an areo engineer that works without a computer and I will put his head into an oven. Seriously are you a troll? I cant think of an engineer that should design stuff without a computer.

You're funny. How old are you? 25?

How do you think engineers did things before CAD/CAM? Do you think they just did not do them?

Yeah, those crazy framebuilders, cutting tubes and welding or brazing them together without CAD programs and "proofs of concept."

The worship of technology... I don't know where it's worst... among American Democrats, or shadetree engineers.

Oh. Excuse me. "Professional" engineers. PEs.

Engineers are supposed to be problem-solvers. Too bad they are busy worshiping the box they put themselves in, and therefore are unable to think outside that box.

That's a shame.

 

[blackohio]

This thread got dumb real fast, alpine slugs taking it full retard.

 

[Honus]

Instead of ad hominem, how about some logic? What's "ignorant" in my post? Offer your proofs.



You're funny. How old are you? 25?

How do you think engineers did things before CAD/CAM? Do you think they just did not do them?

Yeah, those crazy framebuilders, cutting tubes and welding or brazing them together without CAD programs and "proofs of concept."

The worship of technology... I don't know where it's worst... among American Democrats, or shadetree engineers.

Oh. Excuse me. "Professional" engineers. PEs.

Engineers are supposed to be problem-solvers. Too bad they are busy worshiping the box they put themselves in, and therefore are unable to think outside that box.

That's a shame.

I can name several professional engineers that prefer pencil and paper- race car designers Adrian Newey and Trevor Harris immediately come to mind. A computer is just a tool- that's all. There is no such thing as computer designed. I believe the quote is "Computer design is quite often merely bad design done on a computer."

Most engineers I know still work out first principles using pencil and paper. A computer just allows you to go through multiple variations faster and given most product development time lines they are a necessity in today's workplace.

The physics of two wheeled suspension vehicles are very complex- there is nothing simple or easy about designing a suspension bike. The talent and experience required to design a high performance suspension bike and see it through to production in a timely manner warrants the salary expenditure.

While it certainly is possible for an inexperienced but well educated and talented person to design and build a suspension bike it is unlikely that they will be able to mass produce a competitive bike within a given manufacturer's cost and time constraints right out of the gate in today's market. This is where experience comes into play. Experience doesn't always immediately present you with the absolute best solution but it does help you know what NOT to do, which can save a manufacturer a lot of headaches and possible loss of market share.

The first rule of running a business is to hire the best people you can, pay them what they are worth and then give them enough rope to get the job done right.

 

[fluider]

Just to 'super high value' of 70k/year salary. Friend of mine who is educated mechanical engineer with 5 years experience makes almost 6k EUR monthly in Germany, close to Austrian borders, working on pipe systems (which are more LEGO than engineering) for German factories.
So 70k USD yearly I really don't find to be that much for skilled mechanical engineer with proper expertise.

If you realize who the real owners of many bike companies are then you must know this industry is not about making crazy money. They can afford to buy and run proffesional race track team, eventually designing their own car, just for a pleasure. Someone is working 10 hours a day over drawing board for pleasure, another one is spending free money on the 1st one, again for pleasure.

 

[norbar]

Instead of ad hominem, how about some logic? What's "ignorant" in my post? Offer your proofs.



You're funny. How old are you? 25?

How do you think engineers did things before CAD/CAM? Do you think they just did not do them?

Yeah, those crazy framebuilders, cutting tubes and welding or brazing them together without CAD programs and "proofs of concept."

The worship of technology... I don't know where it's worst... among American Democrats, or shadetree engineers.

Oh. Excuse me. "Professional" engineers. PEs.

Engineers are supposed to be problem-solvers. Too bad they are busy worshiping the box they put themselves in, and therefore are unable to think outside that box.

That's a shame.

Edit: Im stupid for arguing with you. Yeah tools are stupid and should not be used while highly experianced engineers should not be paid more because no other company will snatch them from the market... You are right. I will now go back and design radar algorithms with my pencil.

 

[Raingauge]

That's an awful lot of money for someone who can't do anything without using a computer.

I think you're not looking hard enough for talent. I know a lot of people who find 60k a lot of money and would be happy to work for less.

But if you limit your search to major US metro areas where inflation is king and greed is the queen, and everyone expects their starting salary to enable them to buy a Beemer and live in a McMansion, of course you will have to pay 70k. Of course.

And people say the bike industry isn't about getting rich. 70k is a lot of scratch, dude. And if you think it's not, your perspective is ****ed.

Where do you live? You should probably move that rock above you and come out into the world.


I live in Western Canada and I'm an engineer in the oils and gas sector. $60-$70K/yr is starting salary coming out of university up here as long as you're not a moron. I've worked in R&D, project engineering and manufacturing. With almost 10 years experience I'm making more than $70k/yr.

I have machinists that work for me that make well over $100k/yr + benefits + bonuses.

That is not a lot of money for someone who knows what they're doing. The money these guys are getting paid translates into better bikes for you and I. I'm ok with paying what I pay for bikes as long as they keep improving; if you're not go buy a knock off or something used.

 

[92SE-R]

As an engineer, I laugh at your statement. People drop out of engineering to other degrees. Not the other way around. Think there's a reason for that? You did a year of engineering? You didn't even scratch the surface of ANYTHING engineering then. All you were doing was taking a couple classes that supplemented your physics classes if you did only one year. You basically do nothing in your first year compared to your last two years.

Justify your high salaries with a PE? How is that any different than the BAR?

Graduating with an engineering degree almost guarantees one of the highest starting salaries out of college of any degree. Why do you think that is? Knowing that, why isn't 90% of the college majoring in something engineering? Why is there an over 50% dropout rate in the first year of engineering? LOL, I guess you were part of that statistic.

As someone who did a year of engineering before switching to biology and then later got a law degree, I disagree with your estimation of how "tough" engineering is. Disagree quite strongly. Of course engineers try to justify their high salaries with a "P.E." designation, as if there were "amateur" and "professional" gradations that really mattered. It's all very funny.

I'm not disparaging Weagle. If you read the Iron Horse Bikes thread recently here in the DH forum you'll see that I admire what he did with IH and especially the Sunday.

I'm talking about the relative naivete --or perhaps stupidity-- of thinking the only talent worthwhile is the guy or gal who demands a high salary. That thinking shows a real stupidity about what makes for talent, and what does not.

It's worth keeping something in perspective: we're talking about bicycles. Not changing the world. Bicycles. And full-suspension ones at that. Which means we're talking about what, on the global scale, basically, is a rich-man's-toy.

If you think that is "demanding" in the big picture, I laugh at your childishness.

 

[Whoops]

Do not feed the troll.

 

[SylentK]

I can't help but to comment on the comments about crappy tw bikes and how we should support our home-grown efforts (whether it be US, Euro, CAN, etc.). I'm all for that, but at the same time if we want to grow our sport and get better venues and better tracks and more bike parks in general (something I think us Yanks have been wanting) then we need to get more people involved. And the high cost of bikes is a huge barrier to getting more peeps involved. This is where tw comes in.

I'm thinking a complete bike for under $3K. So frame only for around $1200. It is doable. But you know where they're gonna have to get made. Yes the quality and workmanship may not equal the bigger named brands, but it is an entry-level bike. It should get the kids (adults?) hooked and THEN they get the big brand.

There are a couple of brands that started making cheaper DH bikes (Sette, Airborne. Actually Airborne's bike is like $1400 complete!) and I think they are on to something.

 

[norbar]

I can't help but to comment on the comments about crappy tw bikes and how we should support our home-grown efforts (whether it be US, Euro, CAN, etc.). I'm all for that, but at the same time if we want to grow our sport and get better venues and better tracks and more bike parks in general (something I think us Yanks have been wanting) then we need to get more people involved. And the high cost of bikes is a huge barrier to getting more peeps involved. This is where tw comes in.

I'm thinking a complete bike for under $3K. So frame only for around $1200. It is doable. But you know where they're gonna have to get made. Yes the quality and workmanship may not equal the bigger named brands, but it is an entry-level bike. It should get the kids (adults?) hooked and THEN they get the big brand.

There are a couple of brands that started making cheaper DH bikes (Sette, Airborne. Actually Airborne's bike is like $1400 complete!) and I think they are on to something.

Im suprised there are no direct sales tw companies in the US. Frank sales direct but his costs are way higher. Imagine the price of a tw made frame/bike by a company like yt or canyon working in the us.

 

[dump]

Do not feed the troll.

You got it.