So I have the option of getting a 2002 shiver that is practically brand new or a white brothers DH 2.0 for just a little more money. I don't know which I should get. I'm thinking of racing the WIM series here in washington next year and the fork will be used mainly for DH and some Freeride. The forks are so close I don't know which to get and the price difference is negligible.
Shiver or DH 2.0?
- Thread starter Zaskar Rider
- Start date
I have ridden neither.....
I would go Shiver. Just for the simple fact of popularity and seemingly good customer service. It is always harder for a smaller company (like WB forks) to compete that way. Current WB forks have been getting good reviews thru :monkeys:
All that said, I am riding a Rotec (small company) and love it and the owner is good to work with....so what do I know.
I would go Shiver. Just for the simple fact of popularity and seemingly good customer service. It is always harder for a smaller company (like WB forks) to compete that way. Current WB forks have been getting good reviews thru :monkeys:
All that said, I am riding a Rotec (small company) and love it and the owner is good to work with....so what do I know.
Tough choice. I only have personal experience with the Shiver, which is an excellent fork. Open Bath, laterally stiff and very plush makes a nice combo.
VV will hype up the White brothers stuff as soon as he finishes his curb hucks I haven't heard anything bad about the 2.0 (recently) so its probably a safe choice too.
VV will hype up the White brothers stuff as soon as he finishes his curb hucks
I haven't heard anything bad about the 2.0 (recently) so its probably a safe choice too.
Here comes the priorty list. I've ridden probably half a dozen shivers that belonged to friends (trusting me enough to ride them at northstar mostly), and have a DH>3 which is pretty much a shorter travel DH2.0. Both are awesome forks but are different enough to matter.
Shiver: nothing beats the plushness of this fork, the smoothest large production fork I've ever ridden.
Absolutely rock solid on straight on hits, this thing feels like a rock mower when you let the bike go.
About 1.5lbs heaver than the WB.
Doesn't steer as precisely as the WB, the front wheel seems to want to deflect/wander more when plowing through really rough tight rocks. This is it's big downside to me. It sometimes felt like I was moving the handlebars and the wheel wasn't following, at least not right away.
WB: Cool anodizing gets the chicks. Tighter steering, almost as burly on straight stuff as the shiver but not quite, more adjustability with the air chamber on the damper leg, more progressive multi-stage spring stack, slightly more of a hassle to work on.
Two years ago I was flip flopping between these two forks as well and I got a WB because of the weight and the stiffer steering. I rode it until very recently and was very happy with it once I got it tuned to how I wanted.
Shiver: nothing beats the plushness of this fork, the smoothest large production fork I've ever ridden.
Absolutely rock solid on straight on hits, this thing feels like a rock mower when you let the bike go.
About 1.5lbs heaver than the WB.
Doesn't steer as precisely as the WB, the front wheel seems to want to deflect/wander more when plowing through really rough tight rocks. This is it's big downside to me. It sometimes felt like I was moving the handlebars and the wheel wasn't following, at least not right away.
WB: Cool anodizing gets the chicks. Tighter steering, almost as burly on straight stuff as the shiver but not quite, more adjustability with the air chamber on the damper leg, more progressive multi-stage spring stack, slightly more of a hassle to work on.
Two years ago I was flip flopping between these two forks as well and I got a WB because of the weight and the stiffer steering. I rode it until very recently and was very happy with it once I got it tuned to how I wanted.
ive had a shiver and now i am riding the 2.0, the wb rocks! really adj. and they really feel good n smooth, i always used to diss wb forks but i am convert, lol. i would say wb any day, i LOVE mine, had it for 3 weeks and have really hammered it and its going great.
well, he was talking about the DH3 which is a shorter fork, so being an invert i guess it could give that impression if its sitting in a lower crown/height height.Jm_ said:
couldnt say which one to get, but i agree with Jm it would be hard to go wrong with the Shiver. I would only consider the WB at the very least if your willing to deal with a small company directly and not through an LBS system should you need tech support. It does look interesting, but i personally wouldn't go that route for that reason (especially living in canada).
ya, but it is alot stiffer.Jm_ said:
The WB is a great fork, it has loads of adjustments, can be set up for racing to hucking and everything in between, its also stiff and looks killer. WB also has the best customer service in the industry. If you call Tim Breene can answer any technical question you can think of
i have my doubts, sounds like owners placebo. 32mm vs. 35mm stanchions, a pound or more lighter. Even if it was stiffer, the word 'alot' would seem to be an exageration.ViolentVolante said:
hell, most of my torsional flex comes from the bars and steerer anyways....
the 2.0 does look like a sweet fork though. Maybe when the Shivers are extinct...
na its more like a shameless plug for the sponsorzedro said:
, but seriously the 2.0 is stiffer than a shiver, i had a shiver before the WB and it is stiffer. Zed if ya ever want a 2.0 pm me
i will when my Shiver breaks down. So expect a call around 2013 A.D....ViolentVolante said:na its more like a shameless plug for the sponsor
Dang you guys are making this tough for me. I had my heart set on a shiver and actually ordered one. I work at a shop and zokes called me back to tell me that they are out of production. So I'm looking at a almost unused one or a brand new white brothers fork. I did the parking lot test on a shiver today, first time I've ever ridden one and it was amazingly plush so far as the parking lot test can tell you anyway... This is going to be a tough one.
For you white brothers riders how do you adjust the fork? Does it adjust with different oil heights and weights like the zokes do or is it a totally different system. I know they are a cartrige style fork so the guts are different from a shiver.
For you white brothers riders how do you adjust the fork? Does it adjust with different oil heights and weights like the zokes do or is it a totally different system. I know they are a cartrige style fork so the guts are different from a shiver.
wow, they're already out of Shivers?!!
thats...like....crazy...
thats...like....crazy...
They have rebound and compression knobs that offer a wide range of adjustment, and they also have a canister of air on the dropout that adjusts progressiveness/bottom out control. The spring stack is easily tunable to make the fork perfectly sprung for your weight/riding. (if ya buy one PM me and ill tell you how to do this)Zaskar Rider said:
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bighitfsr
Guest
"hell, most of my torsional flex comes from the bars and steerer anyways...."
LOL
Shiver owner in denial.
Dorados are hands down stiffer than shivers and have only 30mm stanchions.
The design of the WB DH2 is much closer to a dorado than a shiver.
My guess is the design of the dropouts/axle is superior on the DH2, its 120mm spacing for a start. There are probably big differences with the bushings also.
The 8 inch boxxes are supposed to be stiffer than the current ones thanks to lower bushings that are 2.5X longer.
LOL
Shiver owner in denial.
Dorados are hands down stiffer than shivers and have only 30mm stanchions.
The design of the WB DH2 is much closer to a dorado than a shiver.
My guess is the design of the dropouts/axle is superior on the DH2, its 120mm spacing for a start. There are probably big differences with the bushings also.
The 8 inch boxxes are supposed to be stiffer than the current ones thanks to lower bushings that are 2.5X longer.
ironically, i learnt that from the 'between the knees' test....bighitfsr said:
sounds like another online engineer...I have owned both and ridden them extensively...are you going to just make a blanket statement like that or back it up???....Dbighitfsr said:
my 2.0 kills my friends dorados and shivers in the between the legs test 
on a side note
6 more days til it comes donnie it better be as good as ya say it is
on a side note
6 more days til it comes donnie
it better be as good as ya say it isHere's the why I made the comment initially;
Shivers have 35mm stanchions, huge crowns, and a good amount of bushing overlap.
The only real way you could say a WB is "stiffer" is if it has much more bushing overlap than a dorado. Even if it has a "little more" for some reason, the shiver still has much bigger stanchions. There just don't seem to be a whole lot of variables here, and barring some crazy slop in the bushings that I've never seen or felt, there's just no good reason for saying that the WB is stiffer than the other. The size of the stanchions, bushing overlap, size of the uppers (which dictates the size of the crowns) are all factors here, but to say that the WB is stiffer when it doesn't measure up in many of those areas seems like a stretch. Impossible? Well I guess with 1-cm thick stanchions it's possible !!
Maybe the shiver is just so stiff that it makes your wheel flex more
Shivers have 35mm stanchions, huge crowns, and a good amount of bushing overlap.
The only real way you could say a WB is "stiffer" is if it has much more bushing overlap than a dorado. Even if it has a "little more" for some reason, the shiver still has much bigger stanchions. There just don't seem to be a whole lot of variables here, and barring some crazy slop in the bushings that I've never seen or felt, there's just no good reason for saying that the WB is stiffer than the other. The size of the stanchions, bushing overlap, size of the uppers (which dictates the size of the crowns) are all factors here, but to say that the WB is stiffer when it doesn't measure up in many of those areas seems like a stretch. Impossible? Well I guess with 1-cm thick stanchions it's possible
!!Maybe the shiver is just so stiff that it makes your wheel flex more
ill mail you my fork so you can do a between the legs test
the 2.0 has 4 bushings in each leg, that go up guite a bit into the leg, and it has a ton of stanction overlap
the 2.0 has 4 bushings in each leg, that go up guite a bit into the leg, and it has a ton of stanction overlap
i think the wrists that are tightening these Shivers dropouts are the same weak wrists tightening EX823s flatspotted wheelsets....
you cant go wrong with the shiver or the 2.0 but the 2.0 is 0,9 lbs lighter (not 1,5lbs).
if you know how to lube a fork you should have no problems or hassles with a well put together (they have been coming out that way for the last years) 2.0
i have felt the same difference in steering "stiffness" (for the lack of a better word), the 2.0 seems stiffer and more responsive sideways than the shiver, i wouldnt go so far as to assume that there actually is a physical difference in lateral stiffness but it sure feels that way. i really like the WB`s.
if you know how to lube a fork you should have no problems or hassles with a well put together (they have been coming out that way for the last years) 2.0
i have felt the same difference in steering "stiffness" (for the lack of a better word), the 2.0 seems stiffer and more responsive sideways than the shiver, i wouldnt go so far as to assume that there actually is a physical difference in lateral stiffness but it sure feels that way. i really like the WB`s.
You're right, I was thinking about my DH3 which was about 1.5lb lighter. DH2.0 is a little heavier.vitox said:
Being someone who believes that the between the legs test is relevant, just think about this: in a bunch of rocks, the side of your wheel is going to be hitting things, behind the axle primarily but also in front, especially at low speeds. While trying to hold a line through this kind of stuff, you will encounter objects that want to move your wheel/twist the fork/shake your hands etc. Some forks twist, some don't so much in this situations. Some forks keep the wheel pretty well aligned with where your handlebars are, some don't.
No shiver I've ever ridden tracks as well as my WB did in these situations.
JM_ just go ride one and then tell me what you think. Until then, while I agree with you that shivers are bigger, they don't steer as true.
EDIT: Just get one it doesn't matter. They're both good. Go ride who cares.
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bighitfsr
Guest
"sounds like another online engineer...I have owned both and ridden them extensively...are you going to just make a blanket statement like that or back it up???....D"
Well lets see now. It uses a closed shimmed damper with external rebound and compression just like a dorado ..... Its a single sided design just like the dorado (spring stack one side damper the other). It uses a semi bath lubrication system just like a dorado. Not to mention its been called a metal dorado numerous times on this board. Oh yeah both forks have a muti piston compression circut so they achive progressiveness via the damper rather than an air spring like the shiver.
I suspect that like a dorado the claimed superior stiffness is probably the result of the design of the dropouts and also the 120mm vs 110mm axle spacing. Marz have a long history of designing crappy dropouts (QR20, QR20+, 888 thru axle which is currently cracking ...). Just speculation on my part but IMO pretty decent speculation seeing as WB has a reputation for being torsionally stiff and the shiver a torsional noodle.
"The two bushings in between do nothing for the stiffness."
Of course they are there for no reason at all.
IMO it might help with the stiffness when the fork is fully extended.
Anyway I believe the between the knees test is valid.
Same test on both forks there is no way you can argue its not.
The only possible arguement is that torsional stiffness isnt very important on the trail (thats a pretty weak arguement IMO). I've done the test on a shiver and a dorado, dorado wins and their was no noticable flex in the bars. You dont need to twist nearly hard enough to flex the bars to get the shiver to flex. That said I didnt check the torque of the bolts in the dropouts of the shiver. My xvert carbon was flexier than both the shiver and dorado in the same test.
Well lets see now. It uses a closed shimmed damper with external rebound and compression just like a dorado ..... Its a single sided design just like the dorado (spring stack one side damper the other). It uses a semi bath lubrication system just like a dorado. Not to mention its been called a metal dorado numerous times on this board. Oh yeah both forks have a muti piston compression circut so they achive progressiveness via the damper rather than an air spring like the shiver.
I suspect that like a dorado the claimed superior stiffness is probably the result of the design of the dropouts and also the 120mm vs 110mm axle spacing. Marz have a long history of designing crappy dropouts (QR20, QR20+, 888 thru axle which is currently cracking ...). Just speculation on my part but IMO pretty decent speculation seeing as WB has a reputation for being torsionally stiff and the shiver a torsional noodle.
"The two bushings in between do nothing for the stiffness."
Of course they are there for no reason at all.
IMO it might help with the stiffness when the fork is fully extended.
Anyway I believe the between the knees test is valid.
Same test on both forks there is no way you can argue its not.
The only possible arguement is that torsional stiffness isnt very important on the trail (thats a pretty weak arguement IMO). I've done the test on a shiver and a dorado, dorado wins and their was no noticable flex in the bars. You dont need to twist nearly hard enough to flex the bars to get the shiver to flex. That said I didnt check the torque of the bolts in the dropouts of the shiver. My xvert carbon was flexier than both the shiver and dorado in the same test.
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bighitfsr
Guest
Zedro,
Get over it allready your riding a stiffer fork than me.
Get over it allready your riding a stiffer fork than me.
haha, looks like I started a bit of a debate over this. Not that anyone cares but I have made my decision and have chosen the white brothers. Between what I've learned here and the words of the wise at the DH zone here in seattle. It seems like there's a concensus that the WB is a better fork. Thanks for all of your help.
Hey guys. Quick question about the WB forks (I know it may be a stupid one too). The 120mm spacing for the dropouts will use a standard 20mm (110mm spacing) front hub right?
Also, is White Brothers only available factory direct? I'd like to compare one to my Shiver (I'm in the Seattle area).
Also, is White Brothers only available factory direct? I'd like to compare one to my Shiver (I'm in the Seattle area).
yup. standard hub. there's a spacer between the hub & dropout. the wheel is less dished than a conventional build.
Thanks. I figured that they had a spacer in there but had not thought that the dishing might be different.
Tarpon said:
its different, almost no dish, but also makes you pretty much incompatible with other peoples front wheels.
funny thing is, the only manufacturer ive seen 120mm front hubs from is risse...
BTI (one of the bigger wholesalers) carries them. You should be able to find a shop that can order through them. And yeah, you pretty much have to have a dedicated wheel for the fork. The change in dish is minor though. You don't need to change spokes or anything drastic. Just redish with the 10mm spacer.Tarpon said:
with the Dorado its a harder comparison since its made with carbon fiber, if anything that could allow a stiffer fork using smaller diameters.bighitfsr said:
The dropouts on the Shiver are quite burly actually, two M6 bolts per leg with alot of meat, and a stepped axle design.
I believe Jm's wrong about the middle bushings not providing stiffness; those bushings would add stiffness to the uppers by forcing the overlaped portion of the stanchions to deflect in the same manner as the uppers, reinforcing it.
i did a quick FEA mockup of this to verify(ooo, get to nerd it up), an upper and lower tube arrangement roughly based on the Shivers dimensions, and set one model with two bushings (stock Shiver), and 4 bushings (set them equidistant between the stock ones). In the model, one bushing was rigidly fixed and the remainders as free slider connections.
The results: the arbitrary loading caused a 40.4mm deflection at the load point for the 2 bushing system, and a 31.3mm deflection in the 4 bushing system. So there is a difference in deflections, as to how this applies this to the real amount of torsional stiffness (or overall) i wont say.
hmm, this does go well with my Master Plan i've been dreaming up tho...
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That is so rad. If I send you my x-rays can you tell me when my foot will be able to withstand an hour of light climbing on a medium roughness xc trail with a traction coefficient of 0.467 get stucks per mile?
huh? not sure what you're thinking, but if you mean the contact area of the bushings, that is how it calculates the interaction between the two components. But that is only a minor point and not the main factor which is how these surface constraints affect the whole system.Jm_ said:
below illustrates the concept. In green is the outer tubes, the circles representing the bushing contact points, white represents the inner stanchion.
Having only two contact points essentially allows different beam deflection curves of the tubes since the only constraints are the end conditions; this means the outer tube may deflect more than the inner tube, where the inner tube has a reduced component of the overall stiffness.
Having 4 contact points constrains the deflection curves to be more similar, since two mid-beam constraint conditions are added. This means both tubes will have similar deflections, or consequently the inner tube must now deflect more than the 2 bushing (end) condition. Bigger deflection curves mean higher stiffness of the system, so overall the system will deflect less under a similar load condition.
the actual deflection curves wont be smooth since the bushings themselves will add a local stiffness component, but this is just an overall concept of what happens. The FEA model wont be entirely accurate as far as numbers are concerned because the contact constraint model between the parts isnt perfect, but it is still capable of giving an overall assessment.
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I can see why the added intermittent bushings would help head on stiffness/deflection but how relevant is your test to the fork twisting? It seems this is usually in the slight rotation of the stantions within the uppers, a little bend in the uppers and some flex at the crown junctions. I suppose the bend in the uppers would decrease from the added bushing support?
well its true the rotation between the tubes decreases the overall stiffness of the fork, but in order for the fork to twist, the individual legs have to bend, which they will but in opposite directions. If you could theoretically stop the tubes from bending at all (as well as the crowns), the fork would be reduced to one degree of freedom, meaning it could only compress and extend, and couldnt flex laterally, longitudenally or torsionally. So the actual stiffness of the leg assembly is a major component in the torsional stiffness, along with their external contraints being the crowns and axle.kidwoo said:
I might try modelling the whole fork for kicks and try and get the model as realistic as possible. Probably the trickiest part is assigning the proper loading to get somewhat meaningful numbers.