The high speed compression was not ported, it was just very very crude. There was a base-valve with a shimmed piston, only there were just like 2 shims and the valve was very simple. Effectively it was a little bigger given that you had two of these cartridges, but it wasn't like a pyramid shim stack on a modern damper. The low-speed damping was accomplished via the ports in the bottom. I sawed open the cartridge and took it apart, I got pics I've posted before of it. It wasn't *that* heavy, only half a pound or so heavier than the equivalent dorado and stem, boxxers were 7lbs, etc. Compared to a more modern 888 though it was.
Shiver returns (2014)
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The old DH2 I rode for a bit was like a wet noodle that liked to puke up oil whenever it felt like it. That probably added to its "plushness"
Those forks were stiffer than any shiver or dorado ever made (present dorado incarnation excluded). Knowing how to work on bike parts is pretty important though, I'll give you thatThe old DH2 I rode for a bit was like a wet noodle that liked to puke up oil whenever it felt like it. That probably added to its "plushness"
The groove forks were even stiffer than the DH2/DH3s. If those guys had been a little more on top of their visibility those forks would have been all over the place.
Either way, I've still never ridden ANY inverted that steers as precisely as a similar caliber, modern 'standard' design. Riding a shiver was like having a loose stem.
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Compared to todays standards.......not really. You can get lighter and better damped these days. They were really good compared to every thing else around (especially other inverted designs) but I'd hunt down something else in 2012. If it's just a matter of money though, yeah hit it. They're not bad by any means. They're pretty tuneable if you know what you're doing. I don't know what it's like getting parts for them though...
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have you ridden one? Virtually nobody has any direct user experience, which is killing me. I suppose the damper is pretty similar to the DH3/DH2.0 without too much change.
It is mostly a matter of money, and trying something else out for the sake of it. They come in around $500 new on ebay, which is less than I would pay for a used 888RC3EVO and a dorado is out of the question. I'm not going the Boxxer route again... My bike came with a 66RC3, which isn't bad, but I'd like mo' travel to even it out with the rear end.
I owned two of the older versions (dh3 and UD180). The damping was good, kind of ahead of a lot of other forks out there at the time, which is what you want when talking about a 6+ year old fork obviously. The parts are all burly machined bits, and they're pretty easy to work on and tweak. One of the biggest things with them was that you can tune progressiveness pretty easily with the piggy back reservoir thingy. And replace the seals if they leak obviously........not sure if you could find something that would work......probably. I'm not sure these days I'd buy and ride one of the ones I owned, but the groove incarnations are a different story.
The groove forks are another league of stiffness. They changed the amount of bushing support in those and they're WAY stiffer than the two I owned. I only got a casual ride on one on a really short section of trail but they're pretty stiff, especially for an inverted. It's kind of hard talking about something I'm basing on a 5-7 year old impression because the standards were different obviously but I feel pretty confident saying you won't DISLIKE it, other than the weight.
I looked at ebay after you mentioned it and got all nostalgic. If you hate it, you could probably sucker me into buying it from you.
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thanks dude. I don't know if I'll go for it or not, but I love wacky stuff and it's such a deal that I could probably turn around and resell it for $400 in a year if I don't like it. I'm generally the last person to complain about weight, but saving it where possible seems like a good idea....of course, if I'm gaining durability/reliability and not losing anything in performance....I looked at ebay after you mentioned it and got all nostalgic. If you hate it, you could probably sucker me into buying it from you.
i had a dh2.0 for a few years. the most reliable fork i've ever had. i serviced only once a year (didn't even really need it), and it was definitely more rigid torsionally (and lighter to boot) than the shiver. the damper seemed to be pretty sophisticated at the time; plush & well sorted. not sure how it would compare by current standards though. really loved it then. perhaps worth a try if you can pick one up cheap enough. really nicely built (nice machining compared to mainstream stuff), but a bit weighty, yes.
Looks like it'll only add a little over a lb to the front end over my pigdog 66 (7.15lb to 8.5). Still not light, but if it's as reliable as you say it is, I'm game. The biggest thing I miss about that avy is that the service interval was 2 years, not 3 rides like my boxxers.
the carbon nano tubing in the inside of the shivers stanchion is pretty rad
I find it funny how some people bash on the shiver. When I went from my shiver to the 888 evo the side to side stiffness almost got the best of me. My 888 was literally pinging off of rocks side to side, it was set up correctly. The shiver never did any of that crap and it gobbled up all the little bumps and roots. That little amount of flex really helped the steering as it would stay a little more planted and in line than the 888.
Of course the shiver had some crude and or simplistic internals since it was based off of damping from 2002, although I wished it had a compression adjustment. Once I got used to the EVO if felt great as well. Its safe to say I am definitely interested in the new shiver and this will be the longest little kid waiting for christmas feeling ever
Of course the shiver had some crude and or simplistic internals since it was based off of damping from 2002, although I wished it had a compression adjustment. Once I got used to the EVO if felt great as well. Its safe to say I am definitely interested in the new shiver and this will be the longest little kid waiting for christmas feeling ever
It wasn't based on damping from 2002, it was based on damping that was the same as when they had the old DH3 and XC700 series of forks, before the bomber chassis. We're talking 1995ish. It was already behind what was being used in motorsports (cars, bikes, etc), and from then it didn't change until maybe the RC2 era, although that wasn't far removed and the real change was the RC3 Evo. On the plus side, it DID have the dynamic bushings, so I'm not sure how WB can build a UD fork with more travel that is SO MUCH stiffer than the shiver, heck, my Stratos had even bigger/beefier crowns and uppers and it wasn't any stiffer than the shiver. Oh, I know there are ways to boost the stiffness, but I don't think we are seeing any of those on any DH forks. Hanebrink did have something crazy like 40mm stanchions, but built so lightweight as to be dangerous. I think it has to go to carbon fiber one-peice uppers+lower-crown, and maybe then it has a fighting chance, but not against a decent right-side up fork with carbon crowns and lowers.
IF this goes ahead, I'd suspect it'd use a semi-open bath, as the inverted design allows for better lubrication and you simply wouldn't need to run a huge open bath, of course that creates issues in of itself, since semi-bath is semi-reliable these days, but marzocchi seals better than most. This would be a way to save some weight and still get decent performance.
My avalanche 888 is way way better than my old shiver, it's not even close. I'm just so against this based on personal experience. It's not that my shiver sucked, I will say that it did most everything my stratos S8 did, in a lighter fork, and it wasn't impossible to use, but there are so many examples of better products these days compared to the stuff from back then.
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I was only basing 2002 off of the shiver line, I had no idea that the damping was so old. I think that is saying something if the damping is in fact 95ish tech, simple and effective. I think its a bit unfair when comparing a custom tuned drop in Avy cartridge to a stock fork unless of course you are talking about rigidity. Something set up for you is going to be much better than using a baseline valving from the factory. I have toyed with the idea of an Avalanche cartridge in my 02 shiver, that could be interesting!
More pushups
I was having a conversation with a buddy of mine who owned a few WB forks (I bought one off him years ago) this past weekend on an xc ride. He was reminiscing on the twisty wheel 'hunting' characteristics of UD forks in mountain biking. He said the same thing you (and lots of others) do....soaking up deflection and riding smoother even though it's not as precise.
I hate that shlt. Big leverage bars and precision dammit!
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There was a big difference in stiffness between the first Shivers and the later models afaik. Never rode one, but had friends riding the different models.
If they manage to give the new Shiver at least the torsional stiffness of a Dorado everything is fine because the Manitou is far from a wet noodle, more on one level with an old Boxxer.
If they manage to give the new Shiver at least the torsional stiffness of a Dorado everything is fine because the Manitou is far from a wet noodle, more on one level with an old Boxxer.
if someone is actually feeling nostalgic for a shiver:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/225106-For-sale-XL-Banshee-Scream-NIB-(8-quot-travel)-and-Marz-Shiver-(-8-quot-travel)
$250 for the fork. you even get a free banshee scream (sweet!)
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/225106-For-sale-XL-Banshee-Scream-NIB-(8-quot-travel)-and-Marz-Shiver-(-8-quot-travel)
$250 for the fork. you even get a free banshee scream (sweet!)
damn, i nostalgia'd.
all that eastern MA talk...I assume teton gravity racing means wyoming somewheres?
I actually considering a scream for a 29er project...i might be interested if he were out here in MA....I'd need to see if a wheel could fit in the stay first.
I actually considering a scream for a 29er project...i might be interested if he were out here in MA....I'd need to see if a wheel could fit in the stay first.
buy it anyways.
No u..
i already have 7 bikes... you need to up your game more than i do.
pretty sure he lives (or at least lived) in or near boston.
if you are actually interested, shoot me a pm
Why? They were doing that back before 2002 and using the same damping technology, it's not like the technology was classified secret-squirrel by the government or something. Risse, Stratos and others also used much more advanced dampers. Not much excuse for it IMO, except that the big manufacturers took the path of least resistance and played off crude damping systems as long as they could. It's not like the current fox or marzocchi carts have some sort of technology that didn't exist 15 years ago.
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If after testing, Marz decides to bring back the Shiver DC for DH racing maybe as a limited production fork, it would be rad to see it in something like the 05' style graphics package:
...the red "M" on the lower crown ...the giant white "M" logos on the fork guards ...the all-black motif w/ "Shiver" in outline on the upper legs ...as far a DC's go - it doesn't get any more badass than that.
...the red "M" on the lower crown ...the giant white "M" logos on the fork guards ...the all-black motif w/ "Shiver" in outline on the upper legs ...as far a DC's go - it doesn't get any more badass than that.
wow, never seen that one before. it looks fast 
I love gooooooold!
that '05 model is on sale for mere 400$ on a local forum, mint condition, the owner wants it to land in some appreciating hands and i haven't the cursed moniez.If after testing, Marz decides to bring back the Shiver DC for DH racing maybe as a limited production fork, it would be rad to see it in something like the 05' style graphics package:
View attachment 110101
...the red "M" on the lower crown ...the giant white "M" logos on the fork guards ...the all-black motif w/ "Shiver" in outline on the upper legs ...as far a DC's go - it doesn't get any more badass than that.
$450 for a 7 year old fork?
Not just a fork, a Shiver, durp.$450 for a 7 year old fork?
The above statement is to be taken with a bucket of salt, as I own a Shiver, with a Stratos ID cart in one side.
Which did make the super plush beast a much better performing fork under brakes, and pretty much everywhere else as well, cos as others have said the damping was fairly basic even back then in '03.
2014 is far enough away I might have time to save enough to get a new Shiver if they ever make it.
And enough for a new frame as well, no point bolting a brand new Uber-fork onto a '98 Disco, which I will probably have smashed by then anyway!!
Indeed!wow, never seen that one before. it looks fast
05' was the last year of production for the Shiver DC so in accordance with this, the demand shift, and resource shift to the 888 program, I'm pretty sure production was scaled back by quite a bit. In my estimation, I'd say Shiver DC production was probably 50% of what it was in 2004. For some reason I have this memory of it having a Works option when ordering it. I'm pretty sure you could custom order one via Marz's old stand-alone "Works" website which was the public gateway to their Works tuning program.
Yeah, $400 to $450 is a bit steep, but then again, MSRP on these things new was pretty out there - more than a 888 if I recall correctly. If the fork for sale is in good shape with no damage to the chassis, it should provide another 5 years of service in the right hands barring major crashes. The lowers were 35mm too I believe...
Sammich - how is yours holding up? Easy to find seals to service, and what seals do you use?
(I used to be a Marz guy before I went to Boxxers... for this year that will most likely change)
baca...that sux man... I'm sure others will come along.
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eh? I don't own one, I just really like the gold on black contrast that the one guy used. That fork got sold before I saw it...
meh, if it gets sold before i get the money for it, i'll just have to satisfy myself with a new model in a couple of yearsbaca...that sux man... I'm sure others will come along.
other that that, if i actually get it, it will end up on a wall before i manage to trash it.
I had to laugh reading the above in that teton link. That's exactly how I'd describe most of what I found when trying to ride Lynn Woods on my own on an 80mm travel hardtail.
Ohhh... when you posted the pic of that Demo, I thought you posting a pic of your personal ride! Black and gold is always a sweet combo!
True! It'll be interesting to see what Marz decides to do...meh, if it gets sold before i get the money for it, i'll just have to satisfy myself with a new model in a couple of years
other that that, if i actually get it, it will end up on a wall before i manage to trash it.
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