[Changleen]

Showing once again they are a bunch of twats...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/20/news/mideast.php

Israel raid violates cease-fire, UN says
Agence France-Presse, The Associated Press, The New York Times

Published: August 20, 2006
BOUDAI, Lebanon Israel's weekend commando raid on a Hezbollah stronghold deep in Lebanon has put the fragile Middle East truce to its biggest test so far, with Lebanon threatening to halt the deployment of its army to the south and the United Nations chief, Kofi Annan, labeling the operation a breach of the cease-fire.

Helicopter-borne Israeli commandos landed near the Hezbollah stronghold of Baalbek on Saturday and engaged in a lengthy firefight. The Lebanese prime minister, Fouad Siniora, called the incursion a "flagrant violation" of the week- old, UN-brokered cease-fire.

The office of the UN secretary general, Annan, issued a statement late Saturday saying the action had violated the agreement.

"The secretary general is deeply concerned about a violation by the Israeli side of the cessation of hostilities," said the statement, issued by a UN spokesman, Stéphane Dujarric.

"All such violations of Security Council Resolution 1701 endanger the fragile calm that was reached after much negotiation."

In Washington, the White House declined to criticize the raid, noting that Israel said it had acted in reaction to arms smuggling into Lebanon and that the UN resolution called for the prevention of resupplying Hezbollah with weapons.

"The incident underscores the importance of quickly deploying the enhanced Unifil," a White House spokeswoman, Jeanie Mamo, said, referring to a force of 15,000 UN peacekeeping troops called for by the cease-fire agreement to police the truce.

The Israelis said that "the aim of the operation had been to disrupt terrorist activities against Israel and to prevent arms from being transported to Hezbollah from Iran and Syria." Any such resupply effort would itself violate the cease-fire resolution passed last Monday by the UN Security Council.

The raid took place overnight under the cover of sonic booms from Israeli jets flying overhead, which occur often over Lebanon. But this time they provided cover to mask the sound of helicopters bringing in the commando unit and two Humvee vehicles. Villagers said the soldiers were dressed in Lebanese Army uniforms.

The success of the effort was a matter of dispute.

One Israeli special operations officer was killed and two commandos were wounded, one seriously, but an Israeli Army spokesman in Jerusalem said the mission's "objectives had been attained in full."

Villagers said otherwise.

"They failed completely," said Sadiq Hamdi, 36, a scrap-iron dealer. "They were still on the road when the Hezbollah came upon them. They did not take 1 percent of what they were trying to do."

The Israeli Army said it would continue such raids until "proper monitoring bodies are established on the Lebanese borders," another task for the UN forces in Lebanon.

On Friday, a top Israeli commander warned that Israel would interdict any resupply efforts and vowed to kill the Hezbollah leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah.

Lebanon's defense minister, Elias Murr, said that if Israel carried out any more raids, he would ask the cabinet to halt the Lebanese Army's deployment in the south.

That deployment - now being bolstered by UN peacekeeping forces - is the cornerstone of the cease-fire, and ending it could end the fragile truce between Israel and Hezbollah that has held since Monday.

"We have put the matter forward in a serious manner and the UN delegation was understanding of the seriousness of the situation," Murr said. "We are awaiting an answer."

Suleiman Chamas, 38, the mayor of Boudai, a village surrounded by tobacco fields about 16 kilometers, or 10 miles, west of Baalbek, gave the following account: Disguised commandos landed in the eastern foothills of the Mount Lebanon range, loaded into Humvees and drove east on a road called Ayoun Semman, where they encountered a roadblock manned by local Hezbollah fighters.

The commandos shouted in Arabic, "Peace be with you, we're one of yours," and tried to drive past the roadblock without stopping.

The fighters started shooting and gave chase. The commandos turned off onto a dirt road, and a gun battle broke out, drawing more villagers.

"The whole village came down, both those who could shoot and those who cannot," Chamas said.

About 40 minutes later, fighter jets and helicopters fired rockets and evacuated the commandos, leaving two fresh craters in the rich red Bekaa Valley soil.

Left behind were large bloodstains, syringes and surgical masks, indicating casualties, and what the villagers believed was some kind of device to guide the helicopters in. Villagers said there were no casualties on the Lebanese side.

Yahya Ali, 30, wearing a red shirt and carrying an AK-47 assault rifle, was one of a number of villagers who said the Israeli commandos were dressed like Lebanese soldiers.

He said they were wearing the mostly green woodland camouflage uniforms that are standard issue for the Lebanese Army, similar to what was used until recently by the U.S. Army, along with olive-green flak jackets and green helmets, also standard issue here.

Israeli soldiers wear a brownish uniform in a single color along with brown body armor and helmets.

Ali said he could see the uniforms clearly because in the rescue the helicopters and Humvees had bright lights turned on.$@

Israel detains Hamas figure

Israeli troops detained a senior Hamas legislator on Sunday, pushing forward with a crackdown on the Islamic militant group, Palestinian officials and relatives of the man said, The Associated Press reported from Ramallah, West Bank.

Mahmoud Al-Ramahi had evaded arrest since Israel began its crackdown on Hamas following the abduction of an Israeli soldier by Hamas-linked militants in the Gaza Strip on June 25.

Ramahi is the fourth-ranking member of the Parliament, responsible for many administrative and procedural matters. With his arrest, Israel now has almost all of Hamas's West Bank leadership in custody.

 

[rockwool]

I bet their über mensch egos have taken some hard blows this past month..

 

[blue]

Israeli commandos get pwned by angry Lebanese villagers.

UN Peacekeepers need to be sent to Israel to setup a provisional government...

 

[valve bouncer]

Be interested to hear our new probationary frother's take on this. Over to you Mr Peru.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Be interested to hear our new probationary frother's take on this. Over to you Mr Peru.

lol. honestly, i believe israel shouldnt stop until terrorism stops being an attractive strategy.

although i´m starting to get the anecdotical idea people for whom terrorism and guerrillas are no more than nasty news on cnn tend to have different views about stuff like that..ink:

i truly believe guerrilla warfare is so powerful, it should be treated like nukes were treated in the cold war. whoever resorts to them first, grants the "right" to drop the hammer on the other side.
just like the idea of nuking back whoever nuked you first was relatively undisputed in the cold war.
utilitarially, i dont see anything short of that to realistically put out guerrilla warfare´s power.

 

[DaveW]

So far all they have done is make terrorisim MORE attractive. (and make themselves look really stupid)......

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

So far all they have done is make terrorisim MORE attractive. (and make themselves look really stupid)......

like i said, thats partly because they are bounded by well meaning laws that end up contributing to that outcome.

 

[Toshi]

like i said, thats partly because they are bounded by well meaning laws that end up contributing to that outcome.

israel is not the only country that can raise the ante, unless they are willing to be shunned by the international community FOREVER by busting out the nukes.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

israel is not the only country that can raise the ante, unless they are willing to be shunned by the international community FOREVER by busting out the nukes.

nukes are not the only way to lay down the smack.

i used the nukes example, because nukage was a widely accepted response to being nuked for both the american society and the russian society. it was an extreme case when eye for an eye was socially accepted, and where it helped to keep the peace (whatever tense it could have been, at least it was an improvement over war).

terrorism is so powerful there is no reason why equally harsh or harsher meassures should not be used/threatened (not necesarily nukes btw), if that can help avoid either side making the first step.
otherwise there is realistically no other incentive not to.

 

[DaveW]

like i said, thats partly because they are bounded by well meaning laws that end up contributing to that outcome.

Laws that in case you hadn't noticed they have by and large ignored.


Lets see then.....

Ethnic cleansing, check!
Collective punishment, check!
Extra judicial murder/asasinations, check!
Racial discrimination, check!
Religious discrimination, check!
Attacks against civilian drinking water installation and irrigation works, check!
Use of civilians as human sheilds, check! Yes the israeli army has and does use this tactic to clear suspected booby trapped buildings.
Blocking humanitarian aid (food and medical supplies), check!


Inspite of use of these (and other) rather disgusting tactics they are getting the opposite of what you seem to think it would/should cause.
It has strengthened and increased the (armed) resistance to Israel and it's policys in the region.

The "Fvck em over harder" tactic does not work as the Israelis have proven over the last 50 years or so, just as the Rusians, British and french found out before them. :redX:

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Laws that in case you hadn't noticed they have by and large ignored.


Lets see then.....

Ethnic cleansing, check!
Collective punishment, check!
Extra judicial murder/asasinations, check!
Racial discrimination, check!
Religious discrimination, check!
Attacks against civilian drinking water installation and irrigation works, check!
Use of civilians as human sheilds, check! Yes the israeli army has and does use this tactic to clear suspected booby trapped buildings.
Blocking humanitarian aid (food and medical supplies), check!


Inspite of use of these (and other) rather disgusting tactics they are getting the opposite of what you seem to think it would/should cause.
It has strengthened and increased the (armed) resistance to Israel and it's policys in the region.

The "Fvck em over harder" tactic does not work as the Israelis have proven over the last 50 years or so, just as the Rusians, British and french found out before them. :redX:

you are kinda going for the red herring here.
i never said EVERY human right law should be disregarded. i never talked about a package deal either.

yes, stepping over them is wrong. but the carnage that would happen by default would be worse.
i dont think 1 death is the worse thing in the world. 2 deaths are definately worse.

"**** them over harder" doesnt work?
well, it hasnt been hard enough yet then. it eventually works, thats how almost every single war ended.
its sad, but thats humanity, thats the entire point on why people resort to violence and killing each other in the first place.

 

[Changleen]

i truly believe guerrilla warfare is so powerful, it should be treated like nukes were treated in the cold war.

How is it so powerful? What has it actually achieved? It only becomes powerful when you react to it like Bush and Olmert have. Otherwise it's basically a distraction.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

terrorism is so powerful there is no reason why equally harsh or harsher meassures should not be used/threatened (not necesarily nukes btw), if that can help avoid either side making the first step.
otherwise there is realistically no other incentive not to.

So, to stop the threat of terrorism, we should be terrorists ourselves, which really spreads the terrorism? You don't win the war for people's hearts and minds by threatening to blow them up if they don't follow you.

"**** them over harder" doesnt work?
well, it hasnt been hard enough yet then. it eventually works, thats how almost every single war ended.

Like Vietnam?

 

[Lex]

"**** them over harder" doesnt work?
well, it hasnt been hard enough yet then. it eventually works, thats how almost every single war ended.
its sad, but thats humanity, thats the entire point on why people resort to violence and killing each other in the first place.

Hasn't been hard enough yet? They've destroyed the infrastructure of pretty much the entire country of Lebanon. Not hard enough? They told the civilian population of the south to flee north and then proceeded to bomb them on the roads. Not hard enough? Are you waiting for them to dispense with excuses and start exterminating the population in a more systematic way?

 

[rockwool]

lol. honestly, i believe israel shouldnt stop until terrorism stops being an attractive strategy.

although i´m starting to get the anecdotical idea people for whom terrorism and guerrillas are no more than nasty news on cnn tend to have different views about stuff like that..ink:

i truly believe guerrilla warfare is so powerful, it should be treated like nukes were treated in the cold war. whoever resorts to them first, grants the "right" to drop the hammer on the other side.
just like the idea of nuking back whoever nuked you first was relatively undisputed in the cold war.
utilitarially, i dont see anything short of that to realistically put out guerrilla warfare´s power.

Guerilla warfare or terrorism as you some times call it, is not an attractive strategy, that is purposeful propaganda to make it sound like it is an opportunistic act to gain something petty material or somthing else equally pathetic. When people decide to become guerillas they do it because the system has shown over several decades and some times centurys that there will be no change in their lives; That their "governments" won't do anything for their basic needs in life or even for their survival, while others choke in wealth; That the human rights that some speek so higly of are by the same people neglected the most..

Of course they won't take that **** for ever and ever. They want their children and grand children to actualy have control of their future and be all they want to be. No difference there from what rich parents want their kids to have, but still refuse others to get.

like i said, thats partly because they are bounded by well meaning laws that end up contributing to that outcome.

That again is typical to the propaganda spread by those who want the evolution of the democratic values to halt and even go back to the times when the little man was persecuted by great leaders for speaking his mind.

terrorism is so powerful there is no reason why equally harsh or harsher meassures should not be used/threatened (not necesarily nukes btw), if that can help avoid either side making the first step.
otherwise there is realistically no other incentive not to.

But the "state side" have been stepping all over for ages.. That is what has to end for the other side to stop their reaction to it.

you are kinda going for the red herring here.
i never said EVERY human right law should be disregarded. i never talked about a package deal either.

yes, stepping over them is wrong. but the carnage that would happen by default would be worse.
i dont think 1 death is the worse thing in the world. 2 deaths are definately worse.

"**** them over harder" doesnt work?
well, it hasnt been hard enough yet then. it eventually works, thats how almost every single war ended.
its sad, but thats humanity, thats the entire point on why people resort to violence and killing each other in the first place.

I don't see why that is a red herring?!!

"Red herring
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The phrase red herring has a number of metaphorical senses that share the general sense of something being a diversion or distraction from the original objective:

* a type of logical fallacy in which one purports to prove one's point by means of irrelevant arguments. See Ignoratio elenchi.
* in politics, a minor or even phony issue trumped up as being of great importance, in order to influence voters to vote for one party or candidate and against the other, or distract from more important issues that might help the opposing party."

Human rights are the most important stuff there is in this world. If they aren't fullfilled by different "loving benevolent" governments, then why should people not have the right to oppose those lieing decieving governments?

It is those very governments that screem "terrorist" the most and that argue for the laws ro go back as they were in the middle ages, that are subjecting humans to the worst terror there is; The one that is put to system.

"i never said EVERY human right law should be disregarded. i never talked about a package deal either."
-Does that make you half evil or half good, in your own book?

"its sad, but thats humanity, thats the entire point on why people resort to violence and killing each other in the first place."
-No, it is the GREED of the priviliged few that resort to a REACTION that leads to violence and killing, from the greedy, so that they can continue to feed their never ending hunger for more vanity.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Shocker: changleen is anti-peace

 

[valve bouncer]

Shocker: changleen is anti-peace

Shocker- N8 doesn't have a f*cken clue what he's talking about.

 

[rockwool]

like i said, thats partly because they are bounded by well meaning laws that end up contributing to that outcome.

Alexis, dunno it might be just me but, I fail to see wich of the laws that Israel didn't violate or how they could have violated more of them. This sounds pretty funny in my ears..

 

[rockwool]

Shocker: changleen is anti-peace

Hint of the day mr N8: Peace means no violence. Not more violence.

 

[Changleen]

It's only 'peace' if the US or it's proxy is allowed to kill the other side with impunity...

 

[N8 v2.0]

Hint of the day mr N8: Peace means no violence. Not more violence.

Violence begats peace.

 

[rockwool]

Some new **** in Lebanon that I heard on the radio. Israelis killed 3 Lebanese and got four of their soldiers injured at the same time.
Will try and find something written.

 

[biggins]

who gives a crap? i think its about time we get our noses out of other countries problems. let em blow each other off the face of the friggin earth.....problem solved.

 

[Silver]

lol. honestly, i believe israel shouldnt stop until terrorism stops being an attractive strategy.

although i´m starting to get the anecdotical idea people for whom terrorism and guerrillas are no more than nasty news on cnn tend to have different views about stuff like that..ink:

i truly believe guerrilla warfare is so powerful, it should be treated like nukes were treated in the cold war. whoever resorts to them first, grants the "right" to drop the hammer on the other side.
just like the idea of nuking back whoever nuked you first was relatively undisputed in the cold war.
utilitarially, i dont see anything short of that to realistically put out guerrilla warfare´s power.

So, you feel Saddam was justified in using chemical weapons against the Kurds? Not to mention that nasty business with the marsh Arabs I've heard about?

Who knew Saddam was really a humanitarian at heart?

 

[N8 v2.0]

This just in..!!!!



Liberal posters on RideMonkey.com change 200,000 years of human nature and end human-on-human violence.








...not!

 

[biggins]

This just in..!!!!


...not!

This just in!!!! one person on earth still uses the phrase "not"!

 

[Changleen]

who gives a crap? i think its about time we get our noses out of other countries problems. let em blow each other off the face of the friggin earth.....problem solved.

First you need to stop America giving $6 billion+ dollars a year to Israel..

 

[blue]

who gives a crap? i think its about time we get our noses out of other countries problems. let em blow each other off the face of the friggin earth.....problem solved.

Sadly, biggins, it's our government who is giving a crap for whatever reason and is providing the fuel for this gnar-gnar fire...

 

[Westy]

Violence begats peace.

Do you beat your wife during arguments?

 

[narlus]

How is it so powerful? What has it actually achieved? It only becomes powerful when you react to it like Bush and Olmert have. Otherwise it's basically a distraction.

easy for you to say when you can sashay onto an airplane carrying a bottle of water.

 

[narlus]

Do you beat your wife during arguments?

uch:

 

[Changleen]

easy for you to say when you can sashay onto an airplane carrying a bottle of water.

I don't think I've ever 'sashayed' onto anything... 'Sauntered' maybe...

 

[Westy]

I don't think I've ever 'sashayed' onto anything... 'Sauntered' maybe...

I bet you have pranced.

 

[jaydee]

How is it so powerful? What has it actually achieved? It only becomes powerful when you react to it like Bush and Olmert have. Otherwise it's basically a distraction.

It's powerful because it's unexpected and is impossible to predict when and where it will occur, it is perpetrated mostly on victims that are not involved in the conflict, and there's no real defense from it. I'd say having the guy next to you in the restaurant blow you and your family into a million bits is a bit more than "distracting".

I'm not defending the collateral damage that Israel has inflicted with more conventional warfare tactics, just commenting on your comment.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

So, you feel Saddam was justified in using chemical weapons against the Kurds? Not to mention that nasty business with the marsh Arabs I've heard about?

Who knew Saddam was really a humanitarian at heart?

well, the kurds werent exactly at the same level of terrorism of hamas or hezbollah. so its an incorrect analogy/extension.
i´ll take the time to post more on wednesday, am off work until then.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

How is it so powerful? What has it actually achieved? It only becomes powerful when you react to it like Bush and Olmert have. Otherwise it's basically a distraction.

c´mon dude, you just cant be serious.
i dont think you´d consider cars exploting every day on auckland to be less than a nuissance.
maybe the desperation israelis (and every place terrorists hit) feel is something hard to understand or seeems irational to you.

another anecdotal, but interesting commentary.
in peru, the zones hit the hardest by communist terrorists (southern highlands) were also the places the army hit the hardest too (lots of colateral damage), and were the toughest anti-terrorism laws were enacted, yet those are the places that until today, support the army and the war against terrorism the most.
even though they they consistently vote left (which would make you think would make them ideologically less inclined to support the state army) and even for army officers who fought guerrillas back in the day (and vote is compulsory, so its a good indicator).
similar thing in colombia.
i´d guess being in contact with certain kind of things shape a lot the perseption of world.

 

[Changleen]

c´mon dude, you just cant be serious.
i dont think you´d consider cars exploting every day on auckland to be less than a nuissance.
maybe the desperation israelis (and every place terrorists hit) feel is something hard to understand or seeems irational to you.

I lived in Colchester and London during the IRA years. Bombs have been detonated less than 3 miles from where I was living at the time (on my daily route to work). I was in the centre of London when that last pub bombing occured, I was in Golden Square at the time, again only a couple of miles away. I know what it's like. These were treated by society and government in a sane and rational way, unlike what happens now, especially in Israel.

Even in the case of 9/11 the death toll was frankly negligable in the bigger picture of deaths in America that month. More people drowned in their bathtubs that year. The WoT is hyped by the media and government in way that has not occured in most of our lifetimes. The facts are that in the west Islamic terrorism has been totally impotent, other than the effects that have been imposed upon us by our own governments. It's utter BS.

Israel have plainly made their own bed in this situation. They can take their apparant 'frustration' and stick it up their ass.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I lived in Colchester and London during the IRA years. Bombs have been detonated less than 3 miles from where I was living at the time (on my daily route to work). I was in the centre of London when that last pub bombing occured, I was in Golden Square at the time, again only a couple of miles away. I know what it's like. These were treated by society and government in a sane and rational way, unlike what happens now, especially in Israel.

Even in the case of 9/11 the death toll was frankly negligable in the bigger picture of deaths in America that month. More people drowned in their bathtubs that year. The WoT is hyped by the media and government in way that has not occured in most of our lifetimes. The facts are that in the west Islamic terrorism has been totally impotent, other than the effects that have been imposed upon us by our own governments. It's utter BS.

c´mon, the IRA is an inner city gang of thugs compared to the arab terrorists.
the only way you can tell on the damage terrorism makes is after the fact. its pretty easy to be brave after the fact dont you think?
its pretty easy to say "i knew it was going to be a 7" after the dices are rolled.
the thing is, terrorism is extremely effective because is based on uncertainty. you dont know if tomorrow a car is gonna explote killing 10, or if next month another 9/11 will happen. you can say its unlikely, but that very quantification of risk is uncertain too.
thats the whole point.

if your argument was right, then i could perfectly extrapolate it to present collective punishment as "irrelevant" based on numbers (after all, what is 10sq km of city compared to whole lebanon?), and thus base an argument on the relatively irrelevant size of the cost... but you know that isnt exactly good grounds for an argument.

Israel have plainly made their own bed in this situation. They can take their apparant 'frustration' and stick it up their ass.

you could perfectly argue the arab terrorists (and by proxy, all the supporting arab nations) have made their beds too, since before 47.

 

[DaveW]

you could perfectly argue the arab terrorists (and by proxy, all the supporting arab nations) have made their beds too, since before 47.

or rather their bed was made for them by zionist terrorists since before 47.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

or rather their bed was made for them by zionist terrorists since before 47.

or rather their bed was made for them by arab feudalists since before 1900...
how long do you want to go?
if you like to go by UN resolutions, i´d say a fair starting point would be the partition resolution.
if you dont, then you truly dont have much of a legal/customary basis left besides "whoever wins gets the land" and in that, the israelis kicked a lot of ass.