[N8 v2.0]

..technical trail features?

 

[splat]

no 234

 

[N8 v2.0]

What about a the possibility of a lawsuit because someone thought a stunt was something fun and lacked the technical skills to actually ride the feature?

 

[BigMike]

define "bandit-built." do you mean stunts built by you and me, without endorsement from the local gov't or trail people? If so, then no. The stunts I build are not really part of a trail, except for a trail of stunts.

I think of TTFs as somthing in the middle of a cross country trail. Log Piles, Bridges over nasty stuff, etc. I personally think that the term Technical Trail Feature is quite stupid and unneccesary. If you are riding a trail with a "TTF" on it, its just part of the trail. Ride it and keep going

 

[dhbuilder]

What about a the possibility of a lawsuit because someone thought a stunt was something fun and lacked the technical skills to actually ride the feature?

what about when their skirt falls down around their ankles, and they trip and fall.
who's going to get sued then ?

 

[brungeman]

what about when their skirt falls down around their ankles, and they trip and fall.
who's going to get sued then ?

Or when the actually "GROW A SET" and don't realize it and get them caught on the nose of the seat when attempting the said obstacle? who gets sued then?

 

[BigMike]

what about when their skirt falls down around their ankles, and they trip and fall.
who's going to get sued then ?

SHIZZAM!!

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Well, since a "stunt" has a negative connotation in (legal) society, I say we replace it with "technical trail feature" as purely a descriptive part of speech. Then, when some jack-ass tries to sue a landowner (etc., etc., etc.) everyone will ask, "Did he possess the technical ability to complete this trail feature?" And the obvious answer will be "no"......

 

[jimmydean]

One of the requirements for Falls City was a "bitch" route so the trail can be ridden by all levels unless the trail is clearly marked as "Expert".

In Dallas, the stunts were torn out because they were considered fire hazards.

 

[sam_little]

Well, since a "stunt" has a negative connotation in (legal) society, I say we replace it with "technical trail feature" as purely a descriptive part of speech. Then, when some jack-ass tries to sue a landowner (etc., etc., etc.) everyone will ask, "Did he possess the technical ability to complete this trail feature?" And the obvious answer will be "no"......

At Falls City (see above), we call them MMTF (man made trail features). And every feature (even on expert trails) has an alternate ("bitch") route. MMTFs are all within a spec agreed upon by the Oregon Dept. of Forestry and the BRMBA/BFA (association that manages the trails).

 

[richcreek]

What about a the possibility of a lawsuit because someone thought a stunt was something fun and lacked the technical skills to actually ride the feature?

Then you are screwed

 

[GumbaFish]

In Dallas, the stunts were torn out because they were considered fire hazards.

Dang that sucks.

 

[bjanga]

I would argue that 'features' are no different than some gnarly rock pile. You can always walk, or go around.

 

[GumbaFish]

Yeah if I see a new drop or jump or something that I don't think I can hit I have no problem walking around it. If I hit it and suck too much to make it it's my own fault.

 

[OGRipper]

There are plenty of legitimate technical trail features so I think you're off-track by lumping all technical features in with "bandit" features. I mean, if it's a technical feature, it's a technical feature, regardless of whether it's authorized or official.

Why are you asking?

 

[BigMike]

Yeah if I see a new drop or jump or something that I don't think I can hit I have no problem walking around it. If I hit it and suck too much to make it it's my own fault.

Thats the way I feel as well, but unfortunantly, a lot of people are out there trying to screw it up for the rest of us!

 

[GumbaFish]

I guess I don't see how if some groms build a new 8 foot ladder drop how it being called a stunt or a technical trail feature will have influence on if I ride it or not. I still know I can't do it, even if it was called an 8 foot super happy fantastic free beer extravoganza.

 

[JRB]

I'm just miffed that someone destroyed my 3 1/2' tall bandit feature. Technical or not. You could drive the "bitch line". :mumble:

 

[dhbuilder]

built a bridge once,
over an unridable gap and fallen tree.
used p.t. lumber and was strong as an ox.(i'm a carpenter by trade.)

guys rode by as we built it.
a few weeks later one of them came whining to me that his 12 yr. old son had ridden across it, stopped and fell over and hurt himself.
he acted like i was responsible for his kid lacking the skills to ride over a three ft. wide, eight ft. long flat bridge at ground level.

some folks should just stay on the couch.

 

[MisterClean]

..technical trail features?

Don't sugarcoat it, call them what they are, illegal.

 

[OGRipper]

Don't sugarcoat it, call them what they are, illegal.

What about those that are not illegal?

 

[madbob]

did somebody say free beer?

 

[MisterClean]

What about those that are not illegal?

The original post aksed about "bandit-built" stunts. If someone is altering land without permission of the land manager/property owner, it's illegal. Now if some "bandits" got permission and added something new, it's called fun. I see alterations to the trails around here all of the time, made by those who are not content with the trails as they are, that are obviously illegal trail alterations. When trails/areas get shut down because of the misdeeds of a few who don't want to use the proper channels, it is a disservice to everyone on a mountain bike. Just ask the people who can't use the lifts in Big Bear anymore, as poaching was a factor listed in the closure there. Pollock's Bench in Fruita was closed partially because of off-trail lines and ventures as well. Ask anyone who has ever ridden Pollock's how great that trail was. Better yet, go hike it and then wish you could have ridden it when it was open.

 

[dhbuilder]

Well, since a "stunt" has a negative connotation in (legal) society, I say we replace it with "technical trail feature" as purely a descriptive part of speech. Then, when some jack-ass tries to sue a landowner (etc., etc., etc.) everyone will ask, "Did he possess the technical ability to complete this trail feature?" And the obvious answer will be "no"......

i also hate the word stunt. mainly because it has a geek quality to it.
we use the word ramps around here.
because that's what they are.
but i'm lucky, i have zero restrictions on what i can build.
so no matter what they're called, they get to stay where i build them.

i wish there were more landowners powerful enough to squash ambulance chasin lawers. like the one i have a relationship with.

around here our trails that lead to the freeride area very quickly separate the wheat from the chaff.
so lesser skilled riders have already had their ass handed to them before they ever reach it.

 

[geargrrl]

Well, since a "stunt" has a negative connotation in (legal) society, I say we replace it with "technical trail feature" as purely a descriptive part of speech.

IMBA had been using the verbiage TTF's instead of stunts for years now.

 

[GumbaFish]

Yup, the best thing to do is to have some feature at the very start of the trail that shows how hard the trail is. Be it man made or just a gnarly line. If you can't hack it right from the start just turn around and find a new trail.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

IMBA had been using the verbiage TTF's instead of stunts for years now.

I like the term "Super-happy-fantastic-free-beer-extravoganza" better than TTF...it's just an "N" away from being Tiggerish.... I'm trying to eliminate "bob".....

"I just hit that totally gnar-gnar (stunt, TTF, SHFFBE)! It was awesome!!"

See....SHFFBE sounds WWWAAAAAYYY better!

 

[dhbuilder]

we have just that.

you roll in down a steep slope with a swooping right hander into a narrow, steep, vicious little rockgarden that exits off as close to a vert wall as you can get.
we've seen many riders get to the vert wall and just stand there going,"what now ?"
then there's a series of big doubles into another rockgarden and dropping off down into a rocky waterfall.

then it gets difficult.

 

[MikeD]

Spomer is the only Monkey qualified to deal with vocabulary issues of this gnarlitude.

 

[Changleen]

Litigation culture is SOOO bent. The fact y'all have to worry about this sh1t sucks ass. Your country needs to grow a pair.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Litigation culture is SOOO bent. The fact y'all have to worry about this sh1t sucks ass. Your country needs to grow a pair.

Our pair is being held hostage for 6 sets of fuzzy dice by the chupacabras of the Middle East....

 

[dhbuilder]

Litigation culture is SOOO bent. The fact y'all have to worry about this sh1t sucks ass. Your country needs to grow a pair.

the landowner i deal with has two very large ones.
they're made from coal.

very quietly one of the most powerful companies in the country.

 

[Wumpus]

An injured mountain biker is suing the non-profit Oklahoma Earthbike Fellowship (OEF) claiming the biking club failed to properly maintain a trail bridge. The case appears to be a classic example of the type of lawsuit feared by land managers and mountain biking organizations worldwide.

In September, 2004 60-year old Jerry Reese sustained a severe spine injury when he fell off the side of a wooden bridge while mountain biking on the popular Bluff Creek Trail near Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. At the time of the accident, a deck board on the bridge was broken, but remained loosely in place. Reese alleges the broken board caused him to lose control of his bike and fall into a dry creek bed. The OEF built the bridge and had an informal agreement with Oklahoma City to perform regular volunteer maintenance on the trail. The case has a trial date of March 4, 2006.

Reese originally sued both the city and the OEF. The suit against the city was dropped, conceivably because the city's liability is capped by state law.

Club members are unwilling to speculate as to what the defense strategy is, but common defenses in this type of case include assumption of risk (the inherent dangers of mountain biking) and failure of proof (the negligence isn't proved). The defense won't be able to claim protection under Oklahoma's recreational use statute because negligent maintenance of man-made structures like bridges isn't covered by this legislation.

IMBA officials are following the situation closely and plan to provide a detailed analysis when the case wraps up.

http://www.imba.com/news/news_releases/01_06/01_26_oef_lawsuit.html

 

[madbob]

maybe you can sue the baylor club over your finger???

 

[Wumpus]

maybe you can sue the baylor club over your finger???

They would actually have to do some trail maintenance.

Hmmmmm, maybe if I slipped on a race sign.

 

[bjanga]

negligent maintenance of man-made structures like bridges isn't covered by this legislation

Hmm. So when does something become man-made? If a hoof/boot/tire rearranges a rock or rock garden, does that then make the garden man-made? Is a puddle of blood/piss/sweat/beer a man-made feature?

 

[Dartman]

This warning from Nelson Rocks Preserve WV pretty much covers it...

WARNING
Nature is unpredictable and unsafe. Mountains are dangerous. Many books have been written about these dangers, and there's no way we can list them all here. Read the books.

Nelson Rocks Preserve is covered in steep terrain with loose, slippery and unstable footing. The weather can make matters worse. Sheer drops are everywhere. You may fall, be injured or die. There are hidden holes. You could break your leg. There are wild animals, which may be vicious, poisonous or carriers of dread diseases. These include poisonous snakes and insects. Plants can be poisonous as well. We don't do anything to protect you from any of this. We do not inspect, supervise or maintain the grounds, rocks, cliffs or other features, natural or otherwise.

Real dangers are present even on trails. Trails are not sidewalks. They can be, and are, steep, slippery and dangerous. Trail features made or enhanced by humans, such as steps, walls and railings (if any) can break, collapse, or otherwise fail catastrophically at any time. We don't promise to inspect, supervise or maintain them in any way. They may be negligently constructed or repaired. They are unsafe, period. Live with it or stay away.

Stay on the trails whenever possible. The terrain, in addition to being dangerous, is surprisingly complex. You may get lost. Carry food, water and first aid supplies at all times.

Rocks and other objects can fall from the cliffs. They can tumble down slopes. This can happen naturally, or be caused by people above you, such as climbers. Rocks of all sizes, including huge boulders, can shift, move or fall with no warning. Use of helmets is advised for anyone approaching the rock formations. They can be purchased or rented at Seneca Rocks. They won't save you if you get hit by something big or on another part of your body. A whole rock formation might collapse on you and squash you like a bug. Don't think it can't happen.

Weather can be dangerous, regardless of the forecast. Be prepared with extra clothing, including rain gear. Hypothermia, heat stroke, lightning, ice and snow, etc. can kill you. Rain can turn easy terrain into a deathtrap.

If you scramble in high places (scrambling is moving over terrain steep enough to use your hands) without proper experience, training and equipment, or allow children to do so, you are making a terrible mistake. Even if you know what you're doing, lots of things can go wrong and you may be injured or die. It happens all the time.

The Preserve does not provide rangers or security personnel. The other people in the preserve, including other visitors, our employees, agents, and guests, and anyone else who might sneak in, may be stupid, reckless, or otherwise dangerous. They may be mentally ill, criminally insane, drunk, using illegal drugs and/or armed with deadly weapons and ready to use them. We aren't necessarily going to do anything about it. We refuse to take responsibility.

If you climb, you may die or be seriously injured. This is true whether you are experienced or not, trained or not, equipped or not, though training and equipment may help. It's a fact, climbing is extremely dangerous. If you don't like it, stay at home. You really shouldn't be doing it anyway. We do not provide supervision or instruction. We are not responsible for, and do not inspect or maintain, climbing anchors (including bolts, pitons, slings, trees, etc.) As far as we know, any of them can and will fail and send you plunging to your death. There are countless tons of loose rock ready to be dislodged and fall on you or someone else. There are any number of extremely and unusually dangerous conditions existing on and around the rocks, and elsewhere on the property. We may or may not know about any specific hazard, but even if we do, don't expect us to try to warn you. You're on your own.

Rescue services are not provided by the Preserve, and may not be available quickly or at all. Local rescue squads may not be equipped for or trained in mountain rescue. If you are lucky enough to have somebody try to rescue you or treat your injuries, they may be incompetent or worse. This includes doctors and hospitals. We assume no responsibility. Also, if you decide to participate in a rescue of some other unfortunate, that's your choice. Don't do it unless you are willing to assume all risks.

By entering the Preserve, you are agreeing that we owe you no duty of care or any other duty. We promise you nothing. We do not and will not even try to keep the premises safe for any purpose. The premises are not safe for any purpose. This is no joke. We won't even try to warn you about any dangerous or hazardous condition, whether we know about it or not. If we do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean we will try to warn you about anything else. If we do make an effort to fix an unsafe condition, we may not try to correct any others, and we may make matters worse! We and our employees or agents may do things that are unwise and dangerous. Sorry, we're not responsible. We may give you bad advice. Don't listen to us. In short, ENTER AND USE THE PRESERVE AT YOUR OWN RISK. And have fun!

NRP Management

 

[N8 v2.0]

But what if the rider has ADD and can't make it thru all those words?

 

[Dartman]

But what if the rider has ADD and can't make it thru all those words?

Hehehe...then he probably shouldn't be riding...

...or President for that matter.

 

[DaveW]

But what if the rider has ADD and can't make it thru all those words?

Well then in that case you tell N8 "Oi don't ride that N8 you'll get hurt"