Should Rumsfeld Resign

Silver · May 7, 2004

Nope, because that would be wavering.

George doesn't waver. He's got God whispering in his ear, remember?

builder666 · May 7, 2004

He should just kill himself...

BurlyShirley · May 7, 2004

No.
At that level, Rumsfeld can do nothing and scapegoating him is partisan crap.

Westy · May 7, 2004

I don't particularly like Rummy but it would be silly for him to resign. Too important of a job at too important of a time to bring a newbie in, especially with a 50/50 chance of a new admin next year. Hopefully he will just be voted out with his boss in November.

Tenchiro · May 7, 2004

Strip him naked, put a sack on his head and parade him through Iraq so the ladies can laugh at him and get photo ops.

But seriously if it is as bad as the news I have been reading, criminal charges should be brought against the administration.

Westy · May 7, 2004

Originally posted by Tenchiro
Strip him naked, put a sack on his head and parade him through Iraq so the ladies can laugh at him and get photo ops.

But seriously if it is as bad as the news I have been reading, criminal charges should be brought against the administration.

Maybe this is why Bush refused to support that new fangled international court thingy (done forgot what it was called so I'se just be describing it all folksy like).

Edit: Bush withdrew the U.S. signature from the Statute of the International Criminal Court claiming it threatened to undermine the administrations global campaign against terrorism.

Spud · May 7, 2004

Too soon to tell. Work of a few sociopaths at the guard level or a more systemic problem? Will be tough to get a decent investigation with electoral politics and spin (by all parties). Need some sort of an independent investigation (yes I realize there are about 7 investigations underway) .

Time for Uncle Rummy to sack up and explain his tip toe around congress amongst other issues.

Slugman · May 7, 2004

The man allowed a major scandal to embarrass a nation and further enrage those who want an excuse to kill our troops.

Rumsfeld just helped Al Queda with it's recruiting...

Give him a pistol and send him into falluja (sp?).

:mad:

$tinkle · May 7, 2004

Originally posted by Slugman
The man allowed a major scandal to embarrass a nation and further enrage those who want an excuse to kill our troops.

Rumsfeld just helped Al Queda with it's recruiting...

Give him a pistol and send him into falluja (sp?).

maybe if the ROTC weren't banned at so many colleges, volunteers would be less likely to be culled from the inbred backwater.

give rummy a nuke, not a pistol - gotta make it fair & plus you libs get your wish, too!

-BB- · May 7, 2004

There was only 1 person that is really responsible for us being there, and that is BUSH.

The Iraqies may be better off for us having gone to war, but WE AREN'T!! I hold the "W" responsible for anything that happens as a result.

Slugman · May 7, 2004

QUOTE]Originally posted by $tinkle
maybe if the ROTC weren't banned at so many colleges, volunteers would be less likely to be culled from the inbred backwater. [/QUOTE]

Now there is an interesting statement that speaks volumes about you.

Actually I know a lot of military people who went in b/c the GI bill was the only way they could afford college... They graduated and are now designing things like heart valves.

Originally posted by $tinkle
give rummy a nuke, not a pistol - gotta make it fair & plus you libs get your wish, too!

I don't care if it's Rummy or Bill Clinton... politics aside I think you need to be aware that when you are trying to win over the hearts and minds of a society (especially one that distrust you already), you can't allow these things to happen. But if they do (and they will) then you had better act fast and have a plan for when it leaks to the press.

cliffster5 · May 7, 2004

One of the worst aspects to this heinous behavior is that it happened at the same prison site as atrocities committed by Sadam's regime. Try convincing the people of Iraq that what we are bringing them is anything better than what they had before. Things are completely FUBAR in Iraq. It will be years and years now for the US to live down the recent events uncovered in that prison.

brenth · May 7, 2004

Honestly, I'm kinda don't know if he should resign over this. On one hand, I truly dislike him and think he deserves to go because of the handling of the war so far, but then fact is that ( the fact that he didn't do anything discipline wise, until the pictures came out, three some odd months after the first allegations, besides the point ), The actions weren't under his control.

I'm just not sure what to make of it yet, I haven't watched any of his testimony yet, so I'm going to see what he had to say before making a judgement.

Old_Dude · May 7, 2004

First of all, forget the photos which clearly illustrate the torturing of prisoners - we'll come back to this topic in just a moment. Try to imagine this situation as if we were ailens, just observing the world over the last several years . . . what would we see? Perhaps the dialog would go something like this:

Look, over there - there's one country that had 800,000 of it's citizens murdered . . . the people there have really dark skin and they call themselves Rwandans . . . everyone else on the planet sort of hears news about these atrocities, but nobody really seems to care or do much about it.

Look over there - there's another country that has also killed many thousands of it's own citizens and they just got invaded by another country that killed about 10,000 of their civilians becausee the leader who ordered the killing thought there might be some sort of weapons threat, when of course, there really wasn't . . . this country being attacked is called Iraq and they have a natural resource that's used by the rich country who started the slaughter . . . this product is called oil and it's an integral part of the killing spree instigator's family financial portfolio . . .

Now, let's get back to the alleged mistreatment of the Iraqi prisoners. Yeah, it shouldn't have ever happened. Letting photos like that get out is just plain wrong.

But seriously, does anyone here have the naivety to believe stuff like this doesn't happen on each side whenever war exists? C'mon, that's why they call it war. What's the difference between some General ordering tons of bombs dropped onto innocent civilians and what we see in "the photos"? What's the difference between slaughtering a van full of women & children who don't slow down enough at a vehicle checkpoint and what happened in "the photos"? What's the difference between the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians who were maimed, burned, et cetera because of our attacks and the events which took place in "the photos"?

Folks, this is war. No, I don't like what happened in the photographs, but to be honest with you, if I knew there were two enemy prisoners that had information about my fellow soldiers who were tortured and being held hostage, I'd rip the d*ck off of those prisoners and make them eat it if it meant I could get information to rescue my fellow American friends.

And, if that's what it takes, wouldn't you do the same?

Be honest.

info about Rwanda

quadricolour · May 7, 2004

Did you guys watch earlier when McCain was grilling Rumsfeld? It looked like it took everything he had to keep from jumping up and choking him out. Kennedy totally pwn3d him too.

Great drama today.

T-Dog · May 7, 2004

Well, to his credit, he did step up and take responsibility for what happened on his watch. I'd vote to let him stay- he has a bigger, personal stake in seeing that things get straightened out and that the right people are held accountable. I don't know what kind of relationships he has with his staff and the rest of the military, but to change boats midstream and have a new secretary come in and have to establish cred with the crew would take some time. Better to let him have a chance to fix what he let get screwed up.

T-Dog · May 8, 2004

Originally posted by Slugman
The man allowed a major scandal to embarrass a nation and further enrage those who want an excuse to kill our troops.

Rumsfeld just helped Al Queda with it's recruiting...

Give him a pistol and send him into falluja (sp?).

I'm not sure how he "allowed" a scandal to embarrass the nation- I mean, you have to admit the guy was in a tough spot. By the time he had found out about it, it had already happened. Should he have called the Post and given them the pics himself? Or had the pics and vids destroyed, in a cover-up? Indict and courts-martial anyone involved, including himself? Other than being more forthcoming with the Pres and congress, I don't see too many easy options.......He's got the tough job of trying to prop up military moral too (at a time when tours are being extended)- and crucifying the idiots involved might seem a little heavy handed to the rest of the troops. I'd really like to hear what some regular enlisted think about the subject.

By the way, nothing Ted Kennedy says means S**t to me. That fat windbag should have been put to sleep 35 years ago. I'll bet even Silver agrees with me on that one.....

Silver · May 8, 2004

Originally posted by T-Dog
By the way, nothing Ted Kennedy says means S**t to me. That fat windbag should have been put to sleep 35 years ago. I'll bet even Silver agrees with me on that one.....

Actually, from what I've read he should have done some serious jail time.

But yep, I'll agree with you on Ted Kennedy.

Ridemonkey · May 8, 2004

Unlike little w, Rumsfeld is a man with a brain in is head. I say let him stay and let's see what he does to make things right.

T-Dog · May 8, 2004

Originally posted by Serial Midget
The whole point is that we, through our elected officials, have set ourselves up as a fair, just and humane society on a mission to liberate the world from repressive govornments...

Keep in mind that these actions were not conducted in the field as an act of war - these actions were taken in a prison under the administration of the United States. These actions were planned, executed and photographed in a deliberate manner.

Someone must be accountable.

That's a good point- "through our elected officials". Now, out of all the people that are saying they've been opposed to this war from the get-go actually wrote to or called their elected official (congressman...ah-congressperson) before the vote to authorize military action to say VOTE NO! I'm not saying it would have done any good, mind you- but really: most people who have strong opinions still don't exercise their right to tell their reps how to vote. Making a sign and waving it around on the street corner may get other folks to honk their horns on the way to work, but that's about it. I'll bet most people can't even tell you who represents their state and how they voted.....

And I guess that I always viewed our participation in the international community (UN) as a concerned, involved neighbor that won't stand by and let maniacs with weapons threaten us or our friends. I wouldn't call it a mission, but we can't just stand by and let atrocities (genocide) happen. And I am not naive enough to say that the US just acts out of altruism- sometimes those friends are important economically. (or oily).

Hopefully, if the Dutch were ever in trouble, the U.S. would send some troops to guard the Heineken breweries, so that the flow of good lager beer would not be interrupted to the OC.

Slugman · May 8, 2004

Originally posted by T-Dog
I'm not sure how he "allowed" a scandal to embarrass the nation- I mean, you have to admit the guy was in a tough spot. By the time he had found out about it, it had already happened.

CNN reported abuse in that prison 6 months ago... but people are only finding out about it now b/c of teh images being leaked.

Even if he did not know the entire time, he has probably known for several month...

Originally posted by T-Dog
By the way, nothing Ted Kennedy says means S**t to me. That fat windbag should have been put to sleep 35 years ago. I'll bet even Silver agrees with me on that one.....

Hate is too nice of a word for how I feel about that moron...

T-Dog · May 8, 2004

Oh I don't know- despite his lack of taste in the field of beer, I'll bet Silver's all-right

ummbikes · May 8, 2004

Originally posted by Old_Dude
But seriously, does anyone here have the naivety to believe stuff like this doesn't happen on each side whenever war exists?

Sure it does.

But when it is done by the one power who aspires to be the power to liberate and free a people it is unacceptable.

Silver · May 8, 2004

Originally posted by T-Dog
Oh I don't know- despite his lack of taste in the field of beer, I'll bet Silver's all-right

Son, if you think Heineken is a good lager, I feel fairly sure that my taste in beer is better than yours.

fluff · May 9, 2004

It all depends on whether the US govt really gives a rat's arse about peace in the middle east and winning the hearts and minds battle.

Rumsfeld himself has said it was unacceptable and that the responsibility was his. That is enough that he should go.

Above and beyond that it would be a clear sign to the Arab world that this is not the American way. Otherwise it will simply show them that America doesn't care about Arabs, only their public image.

The danger is that it will appear that it bothers the US less that this happened, more that they were caught out.

And it is not relative to anything.

I think he should resign immediately, for the honour of the USA.

N8 v2.0 · May 11, 2004

Rummy isn't going anywhere...he didn't have direct control over the prison or the troopers adminstrating it.... hell, we couldn't get Clinton to resign when he was flat out busted.

Besides, the 'torture' that the prisioners endured is far less than having your throat slit and your head cut off.

Slugman · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by N8
Rummy isn't going anywhere...he didn't have direct control over the prison or the troopers adminstrating it.... hell, we couldn't get Clinton to resign when he was flat out busted.

Besides, the 'torture' that the prisioners endured is far less than having your throat slit and your head cut off.

I agree (holy crap... did I just say that to N8) that Rummy wasn't in control.

That is not the issue. The issue is how long ago did he know and once he discovered what was going how did he handle it. That is where he failed us, he could have headed this off long ago.

By sitting on it he made it worse and has allowed it to be a bigger issue than it should be...

I love that you compare this to Clinton's lying about his infidelity... yeah, the Islamic extremist started killing people after that one!

T-Dog · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by Slugman
I agree (holy crap... did I just say that to N8) that Rummy wasn't in control.

That is not the issue. The issue is how long ago did he know and once he discovered what was going how did he handle it. That is where he failed us, he could have headed this off long ago.

By sitting on it he made it worse and has allowed it to be a bigger issue than it should be...

I love that you compare this to Clinton's lying about his infidelity... yeah, the Islamic extremist started killing people after that one!

Headed it off long ago? How? Once the pics were out there, the fallout would have been the same. Maybe a little sooner, but the same amount of sh*t would hit the fan. I would probably try to stall for time if I knew my ass was in a sling....

The problem I had with Clinton, wasn't the subject matter,it's that he could look the camera, the panel and the country at large IN THE EYE and lie. (I didn't inhale? Christ I thought up better ones than that when I was 6) and the infidelity thing.....people are screaming at the top of their lungs that Bush lied, but I truly think he believed the intel. That makes him guilty of believing the wrong people. And even that's debateable. But Clinton knew he bogarted that joint, and that Monica smoked his.

N8 v2.0 · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by Slugman
I agree (holy crap... did I just say that to N8) that Rummy wasn't in control.

That is not the issue. The issue is how long ago did he know and once he discovered what was going how did he handle it. That is where he failed us, he could have headed this off long ago.

By sitting on it he made it worse and has allowed it to be a bigger issue than it should be...

I think he should have been able to 'sit on it' until the investigation was completed (that way it would have been fair to the soldiers who stand accussed). Of course the command at the prision should have been releaved immeaditly (and it was).

I love that you compare this to Clinton's lying about his infidelity... yeah, the Islamic extremist started killing people after that one!

Really??? Did you forget that as a diversion from his cigar moisting sessions, he launched a number of ALCM's into Bin Ladin's camps..?

Slugman · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by T-Dog
Headed it off long ago? How? Once the pics were out there, the fallout would have been the same. Maybe a little sooner, but the same amount of sh*t would hit the fan. I would probably try to stall for time if I knew my ass was in a sling....

The pictures were released by a whistle blower b/c it was still happening... months after the red cross reported it.

I think PR wise it would have been better if the administration had brought it to the public instead of some reporter.

Originally posted by T-Dog
The problem I had with Clinton, wasn't the subject matter,it's that he could look the camera, the panel and the country at large IN THE EYE and lie.

Yup. But that was about his personal life... not excusing it, but lets be realistic about intent.

Slugman · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by N8

Really??? Did you forget that as a diversion from his cigar moisting sessions, he launched a number of ALCM's into Bin Ladin's camps..?

Yup, in Syria - didn't work.

but Clinton didn't send any troops to their death either...

T-Dog · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by Slugman
The pictures were released by a whistle blower b/c it was still happening... months after the red cross reported it.

I think PR wise it would have been better if the administration had brought it to the public instead of some reporter.

Yup. But that was about his personal life... not excusing it, but lets be realistic about intent.

Agreed--I thought his sex life should have stayed private, or at least not get blown out of proportion (pun intended). But his lying skills were pretty finely honed-and I'm sure he would have applied them in other, more crucial-to-the-nation instances.

Slugman · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Deflection issue?

This is not about Clinton and lying - that has been resolved.

This is about the policies and actions of the current administration - get with the program you pathetic apologists and excuse makers.

Sorry.... N8 started it!:eviltongu

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