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should the gov't bail out SUV owners?

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by $tinkle, May 9, 2008.

  1. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    tales of woe

    there should be congressional hearings on predatory lenders like these. no one told them the costs of ownership would increase while the value decreased.

    shameful
     
    #1 -   May 9, 2008

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  2. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    The Fed should bail them out since they dangled the carrot of subsidizing the SUV industry. We can't afford to have people carless in this society of minimal public transportation.
     
    #2 -   May 9, 2008
  3. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    your humor is under-appreciated.
    i wonder if this will lead to lower DUIs & less road rage...
     
    #3 -   May 9, 2008
  4. Stray_cat

    Stray_cat Monkey

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    I'd rather that money go toward something more meaningful. Like subsidies for our terrible train system, or bike paths.
     
    #4 -   May 9, 2008
  5. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    It's a bunch of crap. Any jackass that thought (or still thinks) gas prices will EVER go down is high.
     
    #5 -   May 9, 2008
  6. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I'd rather that money go towards improving E85 distribution to get more stations offering it. Is there anyone we can invade for corn?
     
    #6 -   May 9, 2008
  7. Stray_cat

    Stray_cat Monkey

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    I think we already invaded ourselves for corn ;)
     
    #7 -   May 9, 2008
  8. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    Nebraska.
     
    #8 -   May 9, 2008
  9. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    :picsstfu:
     
    #9 -   May 9, 2008
  10. AngryMetalsmith

    AngryMetalsmith Business is good, thanks for asking

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    No. The gov't should not bail out people who lack common sense.
     
  11. Stray_cat

    Stray_cat Monkey

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    I don't think I'll be able to find a picture of large scale corn subsidies.

    Unless of course someone has a graph showing the decline of our wheat exports...
     
  12. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    Sounds goatse to me. You still want?
     
  13. $tinkle

    $tinkle Expert on blowing

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    good thing posting here doesn't cost anything, or my trolling would run you dryer than andy rooney's colonoscope
     
  14. narlus

    narlus Eastcoast Softcore
    Staff Member

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    :rofl:
     
  15. AngryMetalsmith

    AngryMetalsmith Business is good, thanks for asking

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    Gross, using another man's colonscope.

    Are you just too cheap to buy your own?
     
  16. dante

    dante Unabomber

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    gas mileage plummets when E85 is used. it's offered out here and nobody uses it...
     
  17. SPINTECK

    SPINTECK Turbo Monkey

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    The same gov't that is allowing the Fed to dilute our money's value while buying more oil for our reserves (instead of using the release and purchase of reserves to stabilize oil) is actually going to care about consumers who fell into the marketing trap of an SUV??

    Why would they kill their own cash cow?? They know these people will be forced to drive these vehicles another year or so.

    Gas should be capped for economic and social stability. Your kidding yourself if you think it is a capitalistic market. But like I say, what did people expect when they elected two oil barons to office??
     
  18. -dustin

    -dustin boring

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    stopped by the Toyota dealership today on my way home. $4k rebates on Tacomas were being handed out like candy, while Priuses were unavailable.
     
  19. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    15-20% less mileage, but more hp. I like the idea of E85, but I think a lot more engineering needs to go into it before it's viable.
     
  20. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    No it doesn't. It's the solution we've all been looking for. In fact, when you put a large load on the fuel during combustion -- like a Hummer or Suburban -- it becomes even more efficient.

    Very large vehicles on E85 get upwards of 47mph, in the city! E85 and large vehicles are good for the environment, good for the economy and good for America!
     
  21. SPINTECK

    SPINTECK Turbo Monkey

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    The only problem w/ethanol is the politics. The corn industry will get the rights to make the stuff, so all corn products will go up. I believe switch grass or sugar is much more efficient than corn at fermenting alcohol.

    I personally like the idea of hydrogen. I believe they have found a way to store it so the entire resever doesn not explode.
     
  22. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    lol some people still bite on troll posts
     
  23. Stray_cat

    Stray_cat Monkey

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    A very true statment. We're just not a very big sugar cane producer, but we do have alot of corn...
     
  24. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    The Everglades is perfect for making sugar cane. There's already an established industry, we just need to relax the environmental regulations a little so they can use the natural resources to the fullest.
     
  25. woodsguy

    woodsguy gets infinity MPG

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    E85 and hydrogen are dead ends. It cost more energy to produce than you get out of them. Do some reasearch. It fires me up that so many people think these are viable energy options. I can barely type right now. The only reason they are even considered is because the oil companies can use their infrastucture to produce and distribute them. Electric is the ultimate solution but they will fight it to the death because they don't control the infrastructure (which is already in place).
     
  26. woodsguy

    woodsguy gets infinity MPG

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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301625_pf.html
     
  27. dante

    dante Unabomber

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    uhhhh. Hi N8!! now stop making up facts and give the computer back to LO...

    contrary evidence...

    edit: more from the government
     
  28. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I know. I don't think I could've been more freaking obvious. I'll try again tho.
     
  29. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    Electric creates an unstable and dangerous electro-magnetic force. They tried a localized experiment in Fiji by powering everything with electricity and it changed tidal forces in the immediate area... even pulled a fockin' whale to shore!

    No, E85 is the only safe and realistic option. The return on investment might not be that great, but it's the safest route. Plus, we can just plant it everywhere.

    There's a school near me that is using some dormant land to plant corn. The children go into the fields to collect it, so there's no pollution from the harvesting. So far, the Children of the Corn has collected enough fuel for the entire school district's buses for the entire year.
     
  30. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I stand by my claim that heavier displaced vehicles create more compression in the engine block and force E85 to more efficient levels.
     
  31. 4xBoy

    4xBoy Turbo Monkey

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    Man that would be sweet at rush hour.

    :busted:
     
  32. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    Where's ELF when you need them?

     
  33. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

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    THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL REPLACE OIL, INCLUDING OIL. E85 is an alternative, but not a replacement. Bio-Diesel is also an alternative, not a replacement.

    The only thing we can do is reduce consumption and move to alternatives. E85, Bio-Fuels, Solar, other stuff. Our society (in the USA) was built around the concept of cheap energy and cheap energy is gone forever. Society will have to get off the tit and adjust.
     
  34. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    dude, sweet.

    good catch!
    whatcha mean?
     
  35. ire

    ire Turbo Monkey

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    :shocked:

    $1.50 gas isn't coming back!!??
     
  36. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    Dino sez cheeeeep oil this winter..

     
  37. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    I can't tell if this is trolling or not, but you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

    Yes, high compression leads to higher efficiency. This is (largely) why Diesels are so efficient.

    However, you don't create more compression by putting more load on an engine. Compression is defined by combustion chamber volume and piston stroke and is fixed by engine. Additionally, mid-displacement motorcycles currently have the highest compression ratios out there for conventional normally aspirated engines. Motorcycles are hardly high-load (see high horsepower/torque ratios).

    By nature of it's high-octane, ethanol does facilitate a higher compression ratio (which is why it's used as a racing fuel... "alcohol burners"), but that has nothing to do with vehicle size. In fact because larger vehicles tend to run lower compression engines for low maintenance and longevity, they specifically don't get the benefits of E85, only the drawback of lower energy density... from wikipedia:
    "In one test, a Chevy Tahoe flex-fuel vehicle averaged 18 MPG [U.S. gallons] for gasoline, and 13 MPG for E85, or 28% fewer MPG than gasoline."
     
  38. Toshi

    Toshi Harbinger of Doom

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    (psst, he's trolling like mad)
     
  39. woodsguy

    woodsguy gets infinity MPG

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    -An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel’s analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.

    -The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline.

    -Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way", Pimentel says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU".

    -Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels-not ethanol-are used to produce ethanol", Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can’t afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn’t afford it, either, if it weren’t for government subsidies to artificially lower the price".

    -Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol".

    -The approximately $1 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel says, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace".

    -Nickels and dimes aside, some drivers still would rather see their cars fueled by farms in the Midwest than by oil wells in the Middle East, Pimentel acknowledges, so he calculated the amount of corn needed to power an automobile:

    -The average U.S. automobile, traveling 10,000 miles a year on pure ethanol (not a gasoline-ethanol mix) would need about 852 gallons of the corn-based fuel. This would take 11 acres to grow, based on net ethanol production. This is the same amount of cropland required to feed seven Americans.

    -If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States.
     
  40. r464

    r464 Turbo Monkey

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    I laughed at SUV owners when gas prices were half of what they are now. Funny how long it takes people to learn.

    The real answer is wind power...