[valve bouncer]

I can certainly understand Israel going after Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon but bombing Beirut Airport? That smacks of bastardry to me. According to the Bush doctrine stable, prosperous democracies are the key to defeating terrorism but here you have Israel attacking Lebanese infrastructure which will certainly set back Lebanon economically. At the very least the tourist industry is in the toilet for the foreseeable future.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Well, isn't that a question you should address to the Palestinians?

It's too late for the Palestinians now... their political leaders have chosen their fate for them... and it is continual violence.

They had numerous chances to live in peace with Israel and it is something they and their Jordian/Syrian/Iranian/Saudi masters don't want. A stable Palestinian/Israelie relationship doesn't play well with them at all.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I can certainly understand Israel going after Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon but bombing Beirut Airport? That smacks of bastardry to me. According to the Bush doctrine stable, prosperous democracies are the key to defeating terrorism but here you have Israel attacking Lebanese infrastructure which will certainly set back Lebanon economically. At the very least the tourist industry is in the toilet for the foreseeable future.

Do you know why they hit the airport?

 

[valve bouncer]

I imagine it's to stop the soldiers being taken out of the country, the same reason they're bombing roads and bridges all over the country, disrupt transport links.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Oh boy, you got me there... At least you didn't call me N8.

Actually I do enjoy reality more than your little fantasy world.

Edit: Seriously N8. I'd like to know, what is your problem with that post?

Here's a picture for you:

...and... Israel captured the Golan Hts, because....????

 

[N8 v2.0]

I imagine it's to stop the soldiers being taken out of the country, the same reason they're bombing roads and bridges all over the country, disrupt transport links.

yep...

Israel said its attacks were to prevent the movement of the captured soldiers and hamper Hezbollah's military capacity. It said it had information Hezbollah was trying to take the two soldiers to its ally.

 

[N8 v2.0]

The Syrian backed Hezbollah is a major road block to peace in the region that's for sure.

During United States-brokered negotiations in 1999-2000, Israel offered to return most of the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace and full recognition. Syria refused. Syria offered full recognition and peace in exchange for a complete return to the pre-1967 borders. Israel refused.

In late 2003, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad said he was ready to revive peace talks with Israel. Israel demanded Syria first disarm Hezbollah, who launched many attacks on northern Israeli towns and army posts from Syrian and Lebanese territory. Peace talks were not initiated. The population currently resident in the Golan is, roughly speaking, half Druze and half Jewish.

 

[fluff]

...and... Israel captured the Golan Hts, because....????

Because it's a strategic area Einstein. Regardless of why even you should be able to comprehend the symmetry of your logic; it is OK for the Israelis to fight people who threaten them, enter their territory and try to occupy it, so it should also be OK for others to attack Israel if they enter their territory and try to occupy it. That Israel is more powerful and effective is beside the point. By your own logic they are reaping what they have sown.

Oh, and if you have any doubt on my opinion of Hezbollah feel free to review the thread. And so far as I am concerned any organisation that targets civilians (even if they term it collateral damage) is in no position to claim any moral high ground.

Still, I guess a leaflet drop does it for you eh?

 

[fluff]

It's too late for the Palestinians now... their political leaders have chosen their fate for them... and it is continual violence.

They had numerous chances to live in peace with Israel and it is something they and their Jordian/Syrian/Iranian/Saudi masters don't want. A stable Palestinian/Israelie relationship doesn't play well with them at all.

As with your other arguments this also can be turned on its head; Israel's leaders have chosen continual violence also as they too have had chances to live in peace with the Arabs. If you remember Jerusalem was the sticking point, it takes two to make peace.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Because it's a strategic area Einstein. Regardless of why even you should be able to comprehend the symmetry of your logic; it is OK for the Israelis to fight people who threaten them, enter their territory and try to occupy it, so it should also be OK for others to attack Israel if they enter their territory and try to occupy it. That Israel is more powerful and effective is beside the point. By your own logic they are reaping what they have sown.

No, it is not the same thing. Syria used the Golan Hts to shell and launch attacks into Israel. So, when Syria attacked thru there in the 60's, Israel beat their ass and took the area like any smart country would do. It isn't like Israel uses the Golan to launch unprevoked attacks and shelling into Syria which is what Syria was doing repeatedly for nearly 2 decades prior to losing it.

I know you aren't that thick...

 

[N8 v2.0]

As with your other arguments this also can be turned on its head; Israel's leaders have chosen continual violence also as they too have had chances to live in peace with the Arabs. If you remember Jerusalem was the sticking point, it takes two to make peace.

Wrong again... Israel has made numerous attempts to bring peace to their country... even pulling out of Gaza and more.

 

[fluff]

No, it is not the same thing. Syria used the Golan Hts to shell and launch attacks into Israel. So, when Syria attacked thru there in the 60's, Israel beat their ass and took the area like any smart country would do. It isn't like Israel uses the Golan to launch unprevoked attacks and shelling into Syria which is what Syria was doing repeatedly for nearly 2 decades prior to losing it.

I know you aren't that thick...

From the Syrian perspective the Golan Heights ARE Syria... ergo the mere presence of Israeli troops is an attack.

Would you expect Israel to allow any Arab nation to occupy part of Israel? If not then why should you expect Syria to do the same. Stop thinking about which country you like more and look at it dispassionately, otherwise your perception is skewed.

Oh, and thanks for the endorsement but I already know how thick I am and we aren't approaching it yet.

 

[fluff]

Wrong again... Israel has made numerous attempts to bring peace to their country... even pulling out of Gaza and more.

Wrong again about what exactly N8?

 

[BurlyShirley]

The country with the bigger guns usually gets what it wants. Just sit back and relax...

 

[N8 v2.0]

From the Syrian perspective the Golan Heights ARE Syria... ergo the mere presence of Israeli troops is an attack.

Would you expect Israel to allow any Arab nation to occupy part of Israel? If not then why should you expect Syria to do the same. Stop thinking about which country you like more and look at it dispassionately, otherwise your perception is skewed.

Oh, and thanks for the endorsement but I already know how thick I am and we aren't approaching it yet.

Sure the Syrians consider that Golan their territory... but when they used it as an avenue to shell and to invade the Baaka Valley, they lost it to Israel in the ensuing wars that THEY started.

Boo-hoo...

 

[N8 v2.0]

The country with the bigger guns usually gets what it wants. Just sit back and relax...

Yes. that is the Golden Rule...

 

[fluff]

Sure the Syrians consider that Golan their territory... but when they used it as an avenue to shell and to invade the Baaka Valley, they lost it to Israel in the ensuing wars that THEY started.

Boo-hoo...

Why don't you just say you prefer Israel to Syria, it's a lot more honest than all the other rubbish you try and pass over as reasoning and probably an easier postion to defend. Otherwise you are trying to justify actions in one direction and decry them in the reverse.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Why don't you just say you prefer Israel to Syria, it's a lot more honest than all the other rubbish you try and pass over as reasoning and probably an easier postion to defend. Otherwise you are trying to justify actions in one direction and decry them in the reverse.

Humm.. I don't recall Israel vowing to wipe Syria/Jordan/Iran off the map like their Syrian/Jordanian/Iranian/Palistinian neighbors have...

If you are suggesting Israel is on equal footing with that crowd, you are denser than I would have given you credit for.

And, yes, I do prefer Israel to Syria et al... At least it's a western friendly country with a democratic government and not a tribal fiefdom.

 

[fluff]

Humm.. I don't recall Israel vowing to wipe Syria/Jordan/Iran off the map like their Syrian/Jordanian/Iranian/Palistinian neighbors have...

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

If you are suggesting Israel is on equal footing with that crowd, you are denser than I would have given you credit for.

Do you not agree that they share the same rights?

And, yes, I do prefer Israel to Syria et al... At least it's a western friendly country with a democratic government and not a tribal fiefdom.

Your preference is clear.

 

[DVNT]

back to the topic...should we be worried.

Meanwhile, Israel fears the two kidnapped soldiers may be moved from Lebanon to Iran.

Such a move by the militant Hezbollah could spark a further escalation of tensions and military action in the region.

"We have concerns that they could be taken out of Lebanon to Iran. Those concerns have a basis," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev.

Maybe something to think about

Of course if we get dragged into it, it would fit nicely with Bush's exit strategy for Iraq.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Do you not agree that they share the same rights?

Your preference is clear.

Not wordy enough.... where's your buddy OMGF today..???

 

[N8 v2.0]

back to the topic...should we be worried.



Maybe something to think about

Of course if we get dragged into it, it would fit nicely with Bush's exit strategy per the Onion for Iraq.

I can see Israel taking out Iran's nuke capabilities if Iran make a serious threat...

 

[fluff]

Not wordy enough.... where's your buddy OMGF today..???

Back to dodging the tricky questions I see.

 

[noname]

this is getting interesting. Don't think I've ever seen N8 engaged in a debate before. Fun.......

 

[Secret Squirrel]

this is getting interesting. Don't think I've ever seen N8 engaged in a debate before. Fun.......

Debate....HAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha .....you make squirrel laugh....

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Do you not agree that they share the same rights?
.

not all rights are inherent.
some can be raffled if you start a war, some can be lost by the same reason.

war reparation is the name of the game.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Meh, when was the last time there wasn't a war over there. Big Iz is the only one with nukes. They arent going to use them... they arent THAT stupid.

What I'm worried about is the fact that the opposition seems to be armed with Iranian equipment. How long till Bush uses that as an excuse to do something stupid in the name of God, oil, and the war on terror.

 

[luelling]

am not saying they should all be discarted..

but i believe a new set is required. plus the whole idea of "special courts" isnt that crazy... military personnel are already judged on "special courts" too....

Its a war pure and simple. Terroists just don't fight conventionally and I don't buy that we should be labeling them enemy combatants when they are in fact POWs. Attacks on civilian populations during times of war is common....look at WWII.

 

[DaveW]

Meh, when was the last time there wasn't a war over there. Big Iz is the only one with nukes. They arent going to use them... they arent THAT stupid.

What I'm worried about is the fact that the opposition seems to be armed with Iranian equipment. How long till Bush uses that as an excuse to do something stupid in the name of God, oil, and the war on terror.

It's not Iranian.... the Russians have been chucking weaponry to one and all in that region. Nuthing to do with Iran.


*EDIT* Sorry I take that back. suspected rusian/iranian stuff.
surprises me to be honest I would have picked them to be russian via syria?

 

[Transcend]

Humm.. I don't recall Israel vowing to wipe Syria/Jordan/Iran off the map like their Syrian/Jordanian/Iranian/Palistinian neighbors have...

If you are suggesting Israel is on equal footing with that crowd, you are denser than I would have given you credit for.

And, yes, I do prefer Israel to Syria et al... At least it's a western friendly country with a democratic government and not a tribal fiefdom.

Lebanon has a democratic government. So does Palestine. You just don't like who they elected.

 

[LordOpie]

They elected govts that support terrorism or are actual terrorists themselves. Hmm, what a surprise that N8 doesn't like a group that advocates destruction.

 

[blue]

Lebanon has a democratic government. So does Palestine. You just don't like who they elected.

Totally about to quote him on that.

I find this ludicrous "WE <3 DEMOCRACY!" crap coming out Condis/US Gov't mouth to be obscene. The people of Palestine WANTED Hamas in power.

Should we just kill all the Palestinians since we don't like Hamas?

The simple fact is, the current Bush excuse (craptastic as it was) for war in Iraq has been written off by their sanctioning of the Palestinian government. It's really NOT THAT HARD TO SEE THROUGH.

N8, go live in a ****ing rathole.

 

[Silver]

Should we just kill all the Palestinians since we don't like Hamas?

He doesn't look pale enough to worry overly about...I'd say we're good to go.

 

[valve bouncer]

The Lebanese government are in a damned if you do and damned if you don't type situation here. The strength of and support for Hezbollah means any government in Lebanon isn't going to be able to function without their acquiescence. Essentially the Lebanese govt has done a deal with the devil in return for stability and economic growth (remember Lebanon and especially Beirut were starting to return to the glory days of the early 70's). The inability of Hezbollah to rein in its fighters coupled with the Israeli propensity of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut has set back Lebanon perhaps a decade. Where will it all end?

 

[BurlyShirley]

valve[/B] bouncer]The Lebanese government are in a damned if you do and damned if you don't type situation here. The strength of and support for Hezbollah means any government in Lebanon isn't going to be able to function without their acquiescence. Essentially the Lebanese govt has done a deal with the devil in return for stability and economic growth (remember Lebanon and especially Beirut were starting return to the glory days of the early 70's). The inability of Hezbollah to rein in its fighters coupled with the Israeli propensity of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut has set back Lebanon perhaps a decade. Where will it all balls?

WTF are you talking about?

 

[LordOpie]

WTF are you talking about?

He's a racist.

 

[DaveW]

He's a racist.

WHAT??? Since when did he become an american?

 

[rockwool]

please read this...

that number is completely false. Israel was carved out of the Ottoman Empire who lost the war to Britain and France. As with all wars, winner gets to decide what happens. Combine Israel and Jordan and that's most of the land occupied by the Ottomans.

Look at a map and see how much land was given to Jordan versus Israel.

Also consider that France and UK gave away land! I'm not sure they've ever done that before. They usually KEEP it.

So, before you hate Israel for a situation they didn't make, consider the bigger picture... like there wasn't a Palestine, like Jordan and the rest of the Arab World forced some and encouraged other Islamic-Arabs (as opposed to Jewish-Arabs) to stay and be a thorn in Isreal's side.

Thank you for reading.

Be carefull about accusing others for hating. Soon you'll be calling me an anti semite too..
You don't know me and I haven't expressed any hatred to give you a reason to say that.

In this case the UN got to deside what happened and that is the only thing relevant. What different colonial states did, including the Turks, is mostly sad history. How they defined different cultures, their land and languages leave a lot to wish for. Greece has some new neighbours in the north, they are Slavs, but today call them selves Macedonians due to colonial blunders..
But the UN did give two Swedes the assignement to split Palestine and make two states from it. If Israel didn't get spot on 67% of palestine (as I remember it) it was definately around that number.

You don't have to force somebody NOT to leave their home. That is something people stick to just because it is THEIR HOME. Sefardim Jews have lived next to Arabs since the diaspora, in peace! It wasn't until the Haganah started terrorizing them, and blaming it on the Arabs, to get them to move to the not yet founded Israel.
Now, the UN gave the Jews a home of their own which is a thing the Palestinians have to accept. The Jews also belong to that region and the land should be shared with them. But the UN did not allow the ethnic clensing that happened after the 6 day war in 1967. That is a major violation to human rights.

As for present time, what has been decided by the UN must be followed by all parties.
The Jews have a right to live in peace, but for it to happen they must give what they ask for. Having the role of Goliath today they are the ones that have to give the most.
The refugees have a right to return to their homes and becoming citizens of Israel.
The wall of hatred must be torn down or moved to Israeli soil.
The Palestinian enclaves returned to the Palestinians.
Settlements must be shut down.
Golan heights given back to Syria.
The control over the fresh water must be shared equal.
Ports and airports must be allowed to open on Palestinian soil so they can trade and prosper just like any country.

Allowing a "greater Israel" is as wrongfull as zie germans claming gross Deutchland again..

 

[rockwool]

Where are the shells and rockets coming from? Where did the "freedom fighters" that captured the two IDF soldiers come from and where did they return?

Strange that some think people will just sit back and take **** for as long as it's handed to them. We're talking about life in refugee camps for 39 years! Damn right some are gonna try do something, even if its laughable how much damage a few "rockets" can do. I wonder what type it is, anti tank RPG's? Haven't got a reach of more than a couple of km as I understand it.

 

[rockwool]

It's too late for the Palestinians now... their political leaders have chosen their fate for them... and it is continual violence.

They had numerous chances to live in peace with Israel and it is something they and their Jordian/Syrian/Iranian/Saudi masters don't want. A stable Palestinian/Israelie relationship doesn't play well with them at all.

It's like listening to Goebbles some times..