[rockwool]

pulling out from 90% of the west bank was offered in camp david in 2000.
arafat flat out rejected the offer without making any counter-offer.

any expectative of israel pulling out from the entire west bank and jerusalem is flat out dellusional. it was a heck of a war for them to keep that land. is naive to believe israel will concede jerusalem specially to the palestinian authority.
plus anyways, it was taken from jordan (who in turn took it after 48), and could be rightly argued a form of war reparation.

I don't belive what I'm hearing. Would a colonization be justified by the amount of loss that they had? ****, don't tell Germany cus tey'll start claiming allot. And Japan? thy lost allot more numbers than Germany...
Of course Arafat rejected it. It is not Israels 10% to keep. Neither is Eastern Jerusalem.
If you tell a judge -ohh, hell no I'm not leaving them diamonds back, I got shot and had to run like a mf, thru my selfe of buildings before I got caught and beaten up by the popo, ****, I'm keepin that!??

We have to obey the law of our countries, like Israel has to obey the UN.

Reparation? Let Israel ask for a sum. Alsass and Lothringen is not to be bargained for.

 

[rockwool]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_3379

lol, i find a bit amusing and ironic you said "Sadly we are led to beleive....." just before quoting slanted information....

Why is that slanted? Do you hear any other ideology than zionism beeing mentioned by the media? They have equaled zionism with judeism. That is slanted!

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Why is that slanted? Do you hear any other ideology than zionism beeing mentioned by the media? They have equaled zionism with judeism. That is slanted!

slanted is to quote incomplete information to give the impression something is what it not really is.

i wonder where did you get that bit of information???
because, whoever told you about resolution 3379 without mentioning 4686 is definately not a reliable source...
and kinda makes me wonder if it was propaganda to "led you to believe"...

I don't belive what I'm hearing. Would a colonization be justified by the amount of loss that they had? ****, don't tell Germany cus tey'll start claiming allot. And Japan? thy lost allot more numbers than Germany...
Of course Arafat rejected it. It is not Israels 10% to keep. Neither is Eastern Jerusalem.
If you tell a judge -ohh, hell no I'm not leaving them diamonds back, I got shot and had to run like a mf, thru my selfe of buildings before I got caught and beaten up by the popo, ****, I'm keepin that!??

We have to obey the law of our countries, like Israel has to obey the UN.

Reparation? Let Israel ask for a sum. Alsass and Lothringen is not to be bargained for.

no country "has" to obbey UN. even if you were right, and sovereignty ceased to exist, then it would still make no sense, since the legal nature of un resolutions is of "recommendations".
in practice, most of them are non-binding. plus, like with resolution 3379... UN is not free from mistakes, and sometimes can take decades before correcting them...

2ndable. the diamonds analogy is wrong. israel did not steal the land, israel fought a defensive war in 67 (tiran blockade being fair and square casus belli), thus it not stole the land, unless you believe the allies "stole" germany for 5 years.... they have a hold on the land rooted on a legitimate defensive war...

about the reparation being a sum... that´s wrong too. there is recent legal precedent in customary international law of sovereignity over land as a valid form of war reparation. poland after wwii for example.

 

[jdcamb]

Whatever enemies it can find...hide your AK47 and you're just another Lebanese citizen. I think Hizbullah, despite the tough talk, knows that 'war' with Israel is impossible...they'll bait Israel in, let it roll through a few insignificant militia skirmishes, and either wear them down guerilla/terrorist-style if they remain to occupy, or go back to flinging rockets over the border when they withdraw.

MD

The IDF has a new slash and burn process of targeting. It seems to be directed towards economic targets and the infrastructure. I think it may be more effective in attaining their goals and creating pressure on hezbollah. Expose the terrorists to the surface, take them out or create chaos and confusion amongst the populace, then let the lebanese decide whether they want their new found prosperity back or to live in war and isloation. Either way southern Lebanon is history.

 

[Transcend]

They elected govts that support terrorism or are actual terrorists themselves. Hmm, what a surprise that N8 doesn't like a group that advocates destruction.

That's funny, he loves your country's government. Last I checked you invaded 2 countries againt all tennets international law. Pot, meet kettle.

A little biased, are we?

 

[Kevin]

Just something I thought you might find interesting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=Peace,+Propaganda+&+The+Promised+Land

Dont know if its been posted yet since I didnt read the whole thread...

 

[rockwool]

slanted is to quote incomplete information to give the impression something is what it not really is.

i wonder where did you get that bit of information???
because, whoever told you about resolution 3379 without mentioning 4686 is definately not a reliable source...
and kinda makes me wonder if it was propaganda to "led you to believe"...



no country "has" to obbey UN. even if you were right, and sovereignty ceased to exist, then it would still make no sense, since the legal nature of un resolutions is of "recommendations".
in practice, most of them are non-binding. plus, like with resolution 3379... UN is not free from mistakes, and sometimes can take decades before correcting them...

2ndable. the diamonds analogy is wrong. israel did not steal the land, israel fought a defensive war in 67 (tiran blockade being fair and square casus belli), thus it not stole the land, unless you believe the allies "stole" germany for 5 years.... they have a hold on the land rooted on a legitimate defensive war...

about the reparation being a sum... that´s wrong too. there is recent legal precedent in customary international law of sovereignity over land as a valid form of war reparation. poland after wwii for example.

K, I had to look up slanted in the dictioinary and the way I got it explained was that it meant the same thing as biased.
Biased is something massmedia is when they mention zionism. By not mentioning that not all Jews are zionists, they lead us to belive that there is no "internal" critisism among Jews to this ideology and there for no other solution to Palestine/Israel. Hence "lead us to belive".

I got the info from a site on Palestine. Questionable? Yes, since it did not come from the source, UN.
Do you mean purposefull propaganda from my side?

Many years have passed since their last DEFENSIVE war. Frikkin decades. They can't play that record foreverandeverandever..
Since then, they have been colonizing the occupied terretories. They want to make them a part of Greater Israel. They are trying to brake the spirit of a whole nation of people so they will move out..

I won't argue about the legal nature of UN resolutions, but a lot of people are suffering due to legal technicalities.. I can't just sit back and let that happen without saying anything.
Can you tell me, for how many more years do you think Palestinians should live and die in a rathole? How much more psychological warfare do Palestinians have to be victims of, before you think they've had enough?

Please inform me about Poland, I'm not following you here.

 

[Silver]

I wonder how many Israelis the Canadians are justified in killing now? Is it a 1:1 ratio? Anyone have an exchange rate?

 

[rockwool]

Just something I thought you might find interesting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=Peace,+Propaganda+&+The+Promised+Land

Dont know if its been posted yet since I didnt read the whole thread...

Commie Crap

jk
Take some time and watch this. It also explains allot how the media works in the USA!

 

[Changleen]

I note Israel are hitting oil refineries now... "Going after the terrorists"

Sometimes the agendas are just so... obvious... This whole thing is a giant, un-funny, lethal joke.

 

[Kevin]

Commie Crap

Ok stay ignorant all you want. Im sure your a lot smarter and better informed then say a Noam Chomsky...
Here's some more info for people who dont have their heads up their asses.



the real story in the eyes of Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, author of dozens of books. His latest is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. In May, he traveled to Beirut, where he met, among others, Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah.




NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, it begins with the Hamas election. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe.

At the same time, it's partly in Gaza, and sort of hidden in a way, but even more extreme in the West Bank, where Olmert announced his annexation program, what’s euphemistically called “convergence” and described here often as a “withdrawal,” but in fact it’s a formalization of the program of annexing the valuable lands, most of the resources, including water, of the West Bank and cantonizing the rest and imprisoning it, since he also announced that Israel would take over the Jordan Valley.
Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. ‘Militants’ in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don’t have to repeat. It’s reported on adequately.

The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border. Their official reason for this is that they are aiming for prisoner release. There are a few, nobody knows how many. Officially, there are three Lebanese prisoners in Israel. There's allegedly a couple hundred people missing. Who knows where they are?

But the real reason, I think it's generally agreed by analysts, is that -- I’ll read from the Financial Times, which happens to be right in front of me. “The timing and scale of its attack suggest it was partly intended to reduce the pressure on Palestinians by forcing Israel to fight on two fronts simultaneously.” David Hearst, who knows this area well, describes it, I think this morning, as a display of solidarity with suffering people, the clinching impulse.

It's a very -- mind you -- very irresponsible act. It subjects Lebanese to possible -- certainly to plenty of terror and possible extreme disaster. Whether it can achieve any result, either in the secondary question of freeing prisoners or the primary question of some form of solidarity with the people of Gaza, I hope so, but I wouldn't rank the probabilities very high.

 

[rockwool]

Man you can't listen to Noam Chomsky, he's a Jew.
The hole documentary was filled with self hating Jews..
Have they no team spirit? Traitors!

"convergerance" -Yeh, we used to speak that language too as kids but we called it "theotherwayaround language".

Financial Times? Seems like when you cut the sentimental crap out that the moguls want to feed us with, and just leave facts to reflect over, you end up with rational conclusions.
But to say that massmedia "leads us to belive" stuff to misslead us, that somebody mentioned a page back, is just plain bs. Would never happen. Maybe in Russia, not the free world.

 

[Kevin]

Man you can't listen to Noam Chomsky, he's a Jew.
The hole documentary was filled with self hating Jews..
Have they no team spirit? Traitors!

"convergerance" -Yeh, we used to speak that language too as kids but we called it "theotherwayaround language".

Financial Times? Seems like when you cut the sentimental crap out that the moguls want to feed us with, and just leave facts to reflect over, you end up with rational conclusions.
But to say that massmedia "leads us to belive" stuff to misslead us, that somebody mentioned a page back, is just plain bs. Would never happen. Maybe in Russia, not the free world.

Haha the free world? What do you think the "free world" is?
Theres no such thing...
Anyways Im not gonna argue with someone who doesnt want to know, Ive tried that before but its no use talking to a deaf man.

 

[rockwool]

Haha the free world? What do you think the "free world" is?
Theres no such thing...
Anyways Im not gonna argue with someone who doesnt want to know, Ive tried that before but its no use talking to a deaf man.

No, seriously, please explain, this thread needs it!


My commie crap remark was ironical. That documentary really showed what allot of us have been trying to say here, but better and also brought up a few new things to give light to this conflict.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Girl Fight!!!!!

 

[rockwool]

Israel prepares to invade Syria.

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/160706israelprepares.htm

cut from the thread above:
"No mention here of the hundreds of Lebanese held illegally in Israeli torture dungeons. Earlier this month, the Lebanese government complained to the UN Secretary General representative in Beirut about “the nonstop arrest of detainees, and … the hundreds of missing persons, which poses as a violation of human rights.”"

 

[rockwool]

Girl Fight!!!!!

You're a riddle N8

 

[N8 v2.0]

Israel prepares to invade Syria.

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/160706israelprepares.htm

cut from the thread above:
"No mention here of the hundreds of Lebanese held illegally in Israeli torture dungeons. Earlier this month, the Lebanese government complained to the UN Secretary General representative in Beirut about “the nonstop arrest of detainees, and … the hundreds of missing persons, which poses as a violation of human rights.”"

Might as well quote The Onion than that rubbish...

 

[N8 v2.0]

Israel is doing the World a favor but smacking down militant terrorists and the organizitions that feed them. If they can rid south Lebanon of Hezbollah/Syria, they will be doing the Lebanese government a huge favor.

 

[rockwool]

Might as well quote The Onion than that rubbish...

On the contrary, you should check the stories of CNN, CBS, FOX with the same story frome sites like this.
Why that is, is verry well explained in that documentary Kevin linked to.

Israel is doing the World a favor but smacking down militant terrorists and the organizitions that feed them. If they can rid south Lebanon of Hezbollah/Syria, they will be doing the Lebanese government a huge favor.

In the article the truth comes out that Israel has been kidnapping Lebanese since they invaded that country (in 82?), not to mention all political prisoners held without trial in Israeli prisonns..

That is the real terrorist state.

 

[N8 v2.0]

On the contrary, you should check the stories of CNN, CBS, FOX with the same story frome sites like this.
Why that is, is verry well explained in that documentary Kevin linked to.



In the article the truth comes out that Israel has been kidnapping Lebanese since they invaded that country (in 82?), not to mention all political prisoners held without trial in Israeli prisonns..

That is the real terrorist state.

Riiiiiight....

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Let me sum up the last 181 posts....

1. People kill people.
2. Governments never make the right decision for everyone.
3. Terrorists, military, guys with lawn darts...it doesn't matter...they're violent.
4. Nothing is going to get solved in that region by posting inane things on RideMonkey.
5. At least we're all not dead.......yet......

 

[moff_quigley]

Let me sum up the last 181 posts....

1. People kill people.
2. Governments never make the right decision for everyone.
3. Terrorists, military, guys with lawn darts...it doesn't matter...they're violent.
4. Nothing is going to get solved in that region by posting inane things on RideMonkey.
5. At least we're all not dead.......yet......

Very nice summation. approved.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Let me sum up the last 181 posts....

1. People kill people.
2. Governments never make the right decision for everyone.
3. Terrorists, military, guys with lawn darts...it doesn't matter...they're violent.
4. Nothing is going to get solved in that region by posting inane things on RideMonkey.
5. At least we're all not dead.......yet......

Sounds 'bout right... but OMGF would could have said the same thing but over the course of 253 very wordy posts.

 

[rockwool]

Riiiiiight....

N8, I double dare you, watch the documentary.
You will actually learn something.

 

[N8 v2.0]

N8, I double dare you, watch the propaganda.
You will be indoctrinated.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I note Israel are hitting oil refineries now... "Going after the terrorists"

Sometimes the agendas are just so... obvious... This whole thing is a giant, un-funny, lethal joke.

let make up this "imaginary scenario" (since we "know" people are "incapable" of being so "****ty").

you get hit by an army, this army hides among willing supporting "civilians", then hits again and procedes to hide....

what would jesus do???? what would changleen do???

 

[Silver]

Even the Old Testament God was ready to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if Moses could find 10 righteous men there. Keep in mind the OT God was a royal genocidal dickhole.

I imagine Israeli generals don't read the New Testament that much...so I don't think what Jesus would do matters

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Even the Old Testament God was ready to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if Moses could find 10 righteous men there. Keep in mind the OT God was a royal genocidal dickhole.

I imagine Israeli generals don't read the New Testament that much...so I don't think what Jesus would do matters

well, a lot of israeli generals appear to shave their faces too...
so.....

plus the queston was "what would xxxx do?", not "what would xxxx NOT do??".

 

[Changleen]

let make up this "imaginary scenario" (since we "know" people are "incapable" of being so "****ty").

you get hit by an army, this army hides among willing supporting "civilians", then hits again and procedes to hide....

what would jesus do???? what would changleen do???

Alexis, They're just hitting infrastucture like that for purely capitalistic reasons. That part of the campaign has nothing to do with the 'weeding out the terrorists' bit. Not many terrorists on the runway at the airport or on the main bridges, or major routes in and out of the country. The president of Lebabnon is still pro-western, so at the end of all this Western engineering firms will stand to make a bit of cash cleaning up, and in the mean time everyone in power likes to enjoy a bit of record oil prices, and of course the profits that go with it.

How should Israel deal with Hezbollah? Without massive casualties? Difficult. Maybe they should have considered that before they started targetted killings and whatnot. Now it seems they're going to have to get in there on the ground and get down and dirty. I expect excluding the media from their operaions might be a 'good start' from their POV. Maybe get their buddies in the American media to run a few 'nothing' stories about something like Bush saying 'sh1t' on a mic?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

How should Israel deal with Hezbollah? Without massive casualties? Difficult. Maybe they should have considered that before they started targetted killings and whatnot. Now it seems they're going to have to get in there on the ground and get down and dirty. I expect excluding the media from their operaions might be a 'good start' from their POV.

well, if i was an israeli general, i´d shell them back to the stone age before i send any of my soldiers.

think about it this way.
"i shell them = 1000 not from my side dead"
"i send my soldiers in = 400 from my side dead"...

you see, i believe rules of engagement (in good spirit) outlaw actions like that, and this in turn takes away the deterrent to exploiting those tactics by the hit-and-run faction...... which in turn, in the long run, may end up being worse for both sides...

 

[Silver]

well, if i was an israeli general, i´d shell them back to the stone age before i send any of my soldiers.

That would make you a war criminal.

And, frankly, not any better than Hezbollah idiots on the other side. Long term, probably not any safer. Bombing civilians isn't going to be a solution unless you're willing to engage in genocide.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

That would make you a war criminal.

And, frankly, not any better than Hezbollah idiots on the other side. Long term, probably not any safer. Bombing civilians isn't going to be a solution unless you're willing to engage in genocide.

Genocide is such an ugly word.....I prefer....attrition....

 

[Changleen]

I've been reading around this on various sources - It's notable that in the most part there is a lack of detailed information on who is striking what and where. Reuters has this info, so it is available but most people are running stories 'asking the bigger questions' and so forth.

Here, from Reuters:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-17T112055Z_01_L11538533_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2

Israel's campaign has killed 179 people, all but 13 of them civilians, and wounded more than 500. The dead include seven Canadians killed in a strike on a southern village on Sunday.

Twenty-four Israelis have been killed in the fighting, including 12 civilians hit in rocket attacks.

I have to say a large part of me is fvcking fed up with all this crap with Israel and I kinda wish they would just get it over with once and for all. However the wiser part of me knows that even if Israel went all out, that would not be the end of it. It never could. Israel is the small but powerful fish in a big Arab / Palestinian pond. Short of complete glass carparking all the way to the Russian border this will not be the end of it, so once again they're just killing as part of a cycle of violence. This is just something else that will have to be avenged. I can't wait.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Where are we going?? And why are we in this handbasket....?

The middle east is starting to look like one giant toilet bowl...and the finger is poised on the flusher....

 

[Changleen]

Where are we going?? And why are we in this handbasket....?

The middle east is starting to look like one giant toilet bowl...and the finger is poised on the flusher....

Only the short flush though. It won't get rid of all the crap, and it'll float back to the surface and start festering again.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

That would make you a war criminal.

coldly speaking..... gaining the label of war criminal, or sending my own to die???? thats a tricky question....
what would you prefer????

if i could rationalize/justify/excuse the shelling (kinda like israel is doing right now) i wouldnt have to worry as much about the war criminal label, but most likely i would run out of excusable targets before the stone age arrives...
then i´d probably drop call for evacuation and declare the whole zone a war zone......

And, frankly, not any better than Hezbollah idiots on the other side. Long term, probably not any safer. Bombing civilians isn't going to be a solution unless you're willing to engage in genocide.

i think the issue of "not being any better than" was lost a long while ago, and pr concerns take a back seat ride when katyushas start raining in your 3rd biggest city...

i agree current relatiation do not secure a long term solution, but also believe long term starts by short term (although that is not necesarilly true, is not always wrong either), wwii ended in a similar fashion....

plus you have hamas and hezbollah stated goals and raison d`etre of wiping out israel... what kinda of long term solution can you do against that???? with what authority will you make the deal??? is there any arab authority willing or capable of keeping authority??

 

[rockwool]

N8 listen to mom. If you wont have a taste of the fish, you wont get out and play all day.

let make up this "imaginary scenario" (since we "know" people are "incapable" of being so "****ty").

you get hit by an army, this army hides among willing supporting "civilians", then hits again and procedes to hide....

what would jesus do???? what would changleen do???

General rockwool would stop occupying other countries and by that save allot of his people that ride in busses and hang at cafës.

Alexis, They're just hitting infrastucture like that for purely capitalistic reasons. That part of the campaign has nothing to do with the 'weeding out the terrorists' bit. Not many terrorists on the runway at the airport or on the main bridges, or major routes in and out of the country. The president of Lebabnon is still pro-western, so at the end of all this Western engineering firms will stand to make a bit of cash cleaning up, and in the mean time everyone in power likes to enjoy a bit of record oil prices, and of course the profits that go with it. [/QUOTE

Same thing as what the US did with Serbia. They have to spend a ****load to get the infrastructure up. All high technological work went to foreign companies..

All that infrastructure bombing can also be a preparation for an upcomming war with Syria. The Israelis master the art of hiding an agenda like nobody else.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

General rockwool would stop occupying other countries and by that save allot of his people that ride in busses and hang at cafës.

this gets funny... What country are you taking about??
syria??? the one who started a war and have to
what about the other side accepting the fact they lost a war they started, with all the implications (war reparations) it encompasses??? kinda like the japanese or germans after wwii?? you dont get germans blowing up themselves in paris, dont you???

All that infrastructure bombing can also be a preparation for an upcomming war with Syria. The Israelis master the art of hiding an agenda like nobody else.

"upcomming war with syria"???
syria and israel, technically speaking, are still at war my friend....

 

[Silver]

coldly speaking..... gaining the label of war criminal, or sending my own to die???? thats a tricky question....
what would you prefer????

If you're stipulating a binary solution set, then I'll take choice 2. You wouldn't be gaining the "label" of war criminal, you'd be one. Morally equal to a Hutu with a machete hacking up a Tutsi.

i think the issue of "not being any better than" was lost a long while ago, and pr concerns take a back seat ride when katyushas start raining in your 3rd biggest city...

Speaking from a strictly numbers point of view, Israel has killed many more people than they have lost. How many Lebanese equal one Israeli?