[rockwool]

interesting, now tell me... why then should israel bear that price????

that doesnt mean the israelis are the ones who should pay the price. israel was all fine with the partition. what happened between states from there on, as a result of an offensive war waged AGAINST israel shouldnt be paid by israel.

Of course they were fine with the partition, they had nothing and won a country in the UN lottery. Palestinians had over half of their land taken away from them by the lottery comission.
Does it come as a big surprise that they get pissed, that they don't want to give it away just because men in cylinder hats from places far far away told them to make room? No, and when the Jews got a country of their own and their neighbours tried to snatch it from them, they reacted in the same way.
It is simple logic.

I want to make it clear, it was not wrong of the Jews to want a country of their own. Neither was it wrong of them to want it in the holy land.
But they did crash in a crib that was already taken. Domestic turbulence did hardly come as a shock, to either Jews nor the UN.

After these circumstances, so that we can move on from 2006 to a peacefull future, a compromise from both parties have to be made. Because after all, that's what's important, isn't it?

 

[rockwool]

who defines the greater "right and wrong"????

what is this greater "right and wrong"???
you (palestinian got a part in the war too) go berserk on your neighbor, destroy all his stuff.. he kicks you out of his house, and when he makes you pay for the damage to you start yelling and going berserk again???? is that your greater right?

Are you saying that you wouldn't have a consept of what is right and what is wrong, if there wasn't a guy in a wig and a black robe telling you?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Are you saying that you wouldn't have a consept of what is right and what is wrong, if there wasn't a guy in a wig and a black robe telling you?

there is a right or wrong beyond that...
but that is MY right/wrong... and i CANNOT pretend to set MY moral as a universal moral standard.

why not use a more user-independant framework better?.. i mean, thats the whole point of laws, its practices and customs...

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Of course they were fine with the partition, they had nothing and won a country in the UN lottery. Palestinians had over half of their land taken away from them by the lottery comission.

it didnt happen that way.
the jewish national fund bought a crapload of land to establish a state, and got a written agreement from the then owners of the land in the balfour agreement of 1917.
although i suspect, you probably havent heard about it either.

Does it come as a big surprise that they get pissed, that they don't want to give it away just because men in cylinder hats from places far far away told them to make room? No, and when the Jews got a country of their own and their neighbours tried to snatch it from them, they reacted in the same way.
It is simple logic.

again, your oversimplistic perspective looses too many details to remain valid.
firstable, there was not-trivial native jewish population in the whole area, so you cant say dudes with funny hats came to displace them. (plus most of the initial people were secular). and these native people had every right to claim a land for their own, just like every country that was born from a colony, and had every right to let in whoever they wanted.

I want to make it clear, it was not wrong of the Jews to want a country of their own. Neither was it wrong of them to want it in the holy land.
But they did crash in a crib that was already taken. Domestic turbulence did hardly come as a shock, to either Jews nor the UN.

it was already taken, BY THE BRITISH.
they in 1917 promised a chunk to the jews. plus the jnf bought a crapload of land too (from arab landowners btw), at pretty high prices sometimes.
its a bit of a shock when you sell somebody something, and then claim it back thru suicide bombers... thats a pretty crappy customer service.

After these circumstances, so that we can move on from 2006 to a peacefull future, a compromise from both parties have to be made. Because after all, that's what's important, isn't it?

of course.
i said and its written, the final agreements are yet to be made.
but to claim israel has no right to be there, or that is there a result of oppresive neocolonialism, and that it has to return everything else its a ripoff is ridiculous.
giving back 90% of what they got thru legitimate self-defense, in exchange of stopping some whackos the harrasment, is a lot already, specially to those who are fighting to destroy it to begin with.

 

[rockwool]

there is a right or wrong beyond that...
but that is MY right/wrong... and i CANNOT pretend to set MY moral as a universal moral standard.

That was not the issue so don't make it to be a question covering everyting.
But you've said that boming and killing people to submission is right. No matter how great the cost is in lifes and suffering. Justifying Israel to do that to their neighbours is like I,or the other guys in here critisizing Israels actions, would justify the muslims "throwing the jews in the mediteranean" which some of them see as the only solution to peace.
But you haven't heard one of us say that. In fact, had we said that, we would have been called anti semites, nazis and haters...

Your arguments are based on that the colonial powers had the right to do what they want with the lands they occupied and by that saying there was no wrong in colonialism, and that we still today and in the future, shall follow the "laws" and ethics the colonialists had from the start of that era.
That is a ****ing joke. The intelectual evolution of mankind is by that argument desmissed! Or is it just the ethical?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

That was not the issue so don't make it to be a question covering everyting.
But you've said that boming and killing people to submission is right.

yes, i said so.
thats how wars end with an enemy that isnt willing to negoatiate (fundamentalism the word of the day).
that doesnt mean that MAKING THE FIRST MOVE by killing people into submission is right.
but finishing one by those means, when the alternative is a deadly attrition war with no end at sight, isnt really that much worse than the default alternative.

No matter how great the cost is in lifes and suffering. Justifying Israel to do that to their neighbours is like I,or the other guys in here critisizing Israels actions, would justify the muslims "throwing the jews in the mediteranean" which some of them see as the only solution to peace.
But you haven't heard one of us say that. In fact, had we said that, we would have been called anti semites, nazis and haters...

in the arab side, the most powerful side (even though it may not be representative) is the one that wants the jews thrown into the sea.
they got the guns, they do the wars... they are the fundamentalist.
if israel doesnt do something drastic about it, people will still be killed each day on both sides and the situation wont do anything but worsen (since an attrition war gives the terrorists time to take the destruction to the next level in terms, as you can see by comparing terrorist actions of today and those of 20 years ago).

Your arguments are based on that the colonial powers had the right to do what they want with the lands they occupied and by that saying there was no wrong in colonialism, and that we still today and in the future, shall follow the "laws" and ethics the colonialists had from the start of that era.
That is a ****ing joke. The intelectual evolution of mankind is by that argument desmissed! Or is it just the ethical?

colonial powers?? lol, when did i say any word loosely related to "colony"??.
that was pretty awesome nonetheless.

 

[rockwool]

yes, i said so.
thats how wars end with an enemy that isnt willing to negoatiate (fundamentalism the word of the day).
that doesnt mean that MAKING THE FIRST MOVE by killing people into submission is right.
but finishing one by those means, when the alternative is a deadly attrition war with no end at sight, isnt really that much worse than the default alternative.

in the arab side, the most powerful side (even though it may not be representative) is the one that wants the jews thrown into the sea.
they got the guns, they do the wars... they are the fundamentalist.
if israel doesnt do something drastic about it, people will still be killed each day on both sides and the situation wont do anything but worsen (since an attrition war gives the terrorists time to take the destruction to the next level in terms, as you can see by comparing terrorist actions of today and those of 20 years ago).

colonial powers?? lol, when did i say any word loosely related to "colony"??.
that was pretty awesome nonetheless.

If the arab side had been the most powerful side, the Jews would have been swimming for years now.. Having the a-bomb + the worlds 4th lagrest military force which also happens to be the most high tech on par with the US armed forces, is anything but beeing "the week side".
The rockets Palestinians have been fireing into Israel from the Gaza strip have by military sources, in the leading right wing paper in Sweden, been described as fireworks pieces! That and all the Kalashnikovs in the world will never get one single Jews toe wet.
Your lack of empathy and/or faliure to grasp the conditions Palestinians lived under for 39 years makes you screem for more blood. Israel have been doing somthing drastic all the time. These very actions of Israel is proof of their fundamentalism and that the for 39 years continous escalation of violence is the wrong way to go if peace is ones true goal.
The palestinian "TRANSFER" is Israels true goal; an ethnic clensing; an other term for "throwing people into the sea"; lebensraum for the master race of the middle east!


"colonial powers?? lol, when did i say any word loosely related to "colony"??."

Getting conviniently senile?
You have for several posts this past weeks, in this thread and in the " Israel's War of Aggression; where are the Christians?" thread, argued for the right of Brittain and France, who were the colonial powers in this region, to do what they please with their bounties...

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

If the arab side had been the most powerful side, the Jews would have been swimming for years now.. Having the a-bomb + the worlds 4th lagrest military force which also happens to be the most high tech on par with the US armed forces, is anything but beeing "the week side".

reading comprehension isnt your strenght i see.
i said "in the arab side, the most powerful side (even though it may not be representative) is the one that wants the jews thrown into the sea.."
that means that among the arab side, the terrorists faction is the most powerful and vocal side is the one that wants to wipe out the jews. like hezbollah.

The rockets Palestinians have been fireing into Israel from the Gaza strip have by military sources, in the leading right wing paper in Sweden, been described as fireworks pieces!

if those are your sources, no wonder you come up with stuff like these.
even the most technically clueless person with a tiny bit of common sense can tell no firework pieces kill people miles away consistently.

That and all the Kalashnikovs in the world will never get one single Jews toe wet.
Your lack of empathy and/or faliure to grasp the conditions Palestinians lived under for 39 years makes you screem for more blood. Israel have been doing somthing drastic all the time.

not really. drastic isnt an absolute term. its a relative term.
you are drastic with kids if you yell at them. yelling at a suicide bomber or a katyusha-firing nut isnt drastic.

These very actions of Israel is proof of their fundamentalism and that the for 39 years continous escalation of violence is the wrong way to go if peace is ones true goal.

peace is israels true goal. the hand has been stretched many times, land (without previous legal demarcation and legitimately gained in a defensive war) has been given to the palestinians (although its original owners were the egyptcians).
yet you see all that it causes is to give a false sense of triumph among some crazy pyromaniacs that they use as an excuse to continue the killings.

The palestinian "TRANSFER" is Israels true goal; an ethnic clensing; an other term for "throwing people into the sea"; lebensraum for the master race of the middle east!

you should stop quoting slanderous sources and dropping inflamatory lines full of cliches and big words way out of context if you want to be serious.
you pretty much state israel doesnt give a **** about world/UN opinion. you also recognize, and repeat, its means to unilateral action (4th military in the world, although i suspect the US, China, UK and Russia would be the top 4).
yet at the same time, you talk about a "true goal" that isnt TRUE, since if it was, then it would not be compatible with your other statements since, also in your view, a) israel has the means to do it and b) israel doesnt give a **** about what you say.
ultimately, you´ve got no proof for your "true goal" argument as of 2006, other than your skewed perseption and sources.

Getting conviniently senile?
You have for several posts this past weeks, in this thread and in the " Israel's War of Aggression; where are the Christians?" thread, argued for the right of Brittain and France, who were the colonial powers in this region, to do what they please with their bounties...

i have NOT, at any point, argued for present colonial rights of "UK and France" in the middle east.
plus quote me where i have said such thing.

 

[blue]

Peace is Israel's true goal?

So why have they settled in the WB and Gaza? Why not give those territories back to their rightful owners?

Damn, motivation is such an aggravation...

 

[MikeD]

Peace is Israel's true goal?

So why have they settled in the WB and Gaza? Why not give those territories back to their rightful owners?

Dude, are you serious? Have you paid attention to the news in the last few months/years?

Israel withdrew from Lebanon, from Gaza, and was working on getting out of the majority of the West Bank when Hizbullah and Hamas decided that a move towards peace wasn't conducive to their purposes.

This doesn't mean that Israel's creation wasn't problematic (that's a whole other thread; as I've said, it exists now and that's that), that the Paelestians didn't suffer for it or deserve their own state, or that Israel has been a saint in all the conflicts resulting from its neighbors attacks, but Israel has recently moved to end the fighting, and it's gotten suicide bombers, kidnappings, and rocket salvos for its efforts.

MD

 

[Silver]

Dude, are you serious? Have you paid attention to the news in the last few months/years?

Israel withdrew from Lebanon, from Gaza, and was working on getting out of the majority of the West Bank when Hizbullah and Hamas decided that a move towards peace wasn't conducive to their purposes.

MD

Except for the fact that when Hamas got elected, Israel and the US made sure they didn't get any funding, which played right into the hands of the miltant wing.

I think that Isreal suffers from the same problem that Hamas and Hezbollah both do. The guys with the itchy trigger fingers have figured out that they can subvert any peace process by firing at the other side, because the other side always fires back.

 

[MikeD]

Except for the fact that when Hamas got elected, Israel and the US made sure they didn't get any funding, which played right into the hands of the miltant wing.

So if Hamas got funding from the people it's trying to destroy or their allies, they'd suddenly realize just how wrong they were and evolve into a kinder, gentler organization?

Sounds nice, but simply not going to happen. Hamas has no inherent right to funding from the US, nor does the Palestinean government or populace. The US has no obligation to fund Hamas or the Palestineans. People act like it's a horrific injustice, but why the hell would anyone give money to someone sworn to destroy them or their allies? Would Hamas give extra money to Israel if it had it?

Hamas may be democratically elected, but that doesn't change who they are, and by aligning themselves with Hamas, the Palestineans made a choice for which they'll suffer.

Hey, they US has to suffer because of the actions of its elected leaders, too...

MD

 

[Silver]

I was mostly referring to the tax and customs revenue that Isreael collects for the PA. (edit: Didn't make that clear. Sorry) Those transfers have stopped since February, and make up a third of the PA's budget.

Economically crippling an elected government that is the largest employer in a god forsaken hellhole isn't the way to convince people that Israel is a good thing to have around, y'know?

 

[MikeD]

I was mostly referring to the tax and customs revenue that Isreael collects for the PA. Those transfers have stopped since February, and make up a third of the PA's budget.

Economically crippling an elected government that is the largest employer in a god forsaken hellhole isn't the way to convince people that Israel is a good thing to have around, y'know?

Swearing to destroy those upon whom you rely economically also isn't a particularly practical stance...

 

[Silver]

Swearing to destroy those upon whom you rely economically also isn't a particularly practical stance...

True, but that customs money doesn't belong to Israel...so you can't argue that they are trying to end an occupation when they really haven't.

 

[MikeD]

True, but that customs money doesn't belong to Israel...so you can't argue that they are trying to end an occupation when they really haven't.

Granted, yet if you look at it practically, the election of Hamas basically put Palestine, as much as it exists, in a de facto state of war against Israel. At that point, it's pretty stupid to give your enemies any money.

As to playing into the hands of the extremists, well, it's that devil's bargain again. Israel can fight and get them angrier and create more enemies, or it can let them attack, not fight back, and lose the fight altogether.

MD

 

[Silver]

As to playing into the hands of the extremists, well, it's that devil's bargain again. Israel can fight and get them angrier and create more enemies, or it can let them attack, not fight back, and lose the fight altogether.

MD

The problem with looking at it that way is you lead down one of two roads: Low level warfare for an indefinite period of time, or a final solution.

Neither are very attractive, imho.

 

[MikeD]

Then what's our out-of-the-box solution to this problem?

I've tried to come up with some, and am not hung up on some vengeful idea of Israel being required to vindicate itself on its enemies with violence, but there's nothing I can come up with which prevents Muslim extremists from continuing their low-level war to destabilize Israel indefinitely. Israel's existence is a continuing problem, no matter if the exacerbating factors like poverty, etc. go away.

Plus, these factors just won't go away...it's also in the anti-Israeli interest to ensure poverty in Palestine and continue the culture of victimization which continues larger powers to wage war on Israel by proxy.

Palestine, pre-Israel, and its population weren't exactly dear to the rest of the Muslim world prior to Israel's creation anyhow. Other Arab states have adopted their cause in order to attack Israel, but continue to hold the Palestineans themselves at arm's length. They're happy to send them off with suicide bombs strapped on their bodies, but sure as heck don't want them coming over for dinner.

MD

 

[Silver]

Then what's our out-of-the-box solution to this problem?

I've tried to come up with some, and am not hung up on some vengeful idea of Israel being required to vindicate itself on its enemies with violence, but there's nothing I can come up with which prevents Muslim extremists from continuing their low-level war to destabilize Israel indefinitely. Israel's existence is a continuing problem, no matter if the exacerbating factors like poverty, etc. go away.

Plus, these factors just won't go away...it's also in the anti-Israeli interest to ensure poverty in Palestine and continue the culture of victimization which continues larger powers to wage war on Israel by proxy.

Palestine, pre-Israel, and its population weren't exactly dear to the rest of the Muslim world prior to Israel's creation anyhow. Other Arab states have adopted their cause in order to attack Israel, but continue to hold the Palestineans themselves at arm's length.

MD

I'm starting to like Ohio's wall idea.

Make the wall, make it reasonable, pull out all the settlements, and close off Israel from contact. North and South Korea style, if you have to. Continue to target the military wing of Hamas, but be VERY careful about not firing rockets from helicopters into crowds.

Of course, this would require sacrifices from both sides, so both sides will make sure the shooting doesn't stop. Tie aid to both sides to lack of military action.

Or, better yet, move Israel to New Mexico. 20/20 being hindsight...

Palestine, pre-Israel, and its population weren't exactly dear to the rest of the Muslim world prior to Israel's creation anyhow. Other Arab states have adopted their cause in order to attack Israel, but continue to hold the Palestineans themselves at arm's length.

We've been pretty successful co-opting Egypt. Perhaps there is a way to do that with Syria and Jordan as well? Lebanon...err...no good ideas there. That's going to be screwed up for at least the next 20 years.

 

[LordOpie]

the only way to stop war is to create suburbs. Give Palestine, et. al a few Wal-Marts, they'll get fat and lazy. Big screen TVs and McDonalds. No more war.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Then what's our out-of-the-box solution to this problem?

I've tried to come up with some, and am not hung up on some vengeful idea of Israel being required to vindicate itself on its enemies with violence, but there's nothing I can come up with which prevents Muslim extremists from continuing their low-level war to destabilize Israel indefinitely. Israel's existence is a continuing problem, no matter if the exacerbating factors like poverty, etc. go away.

i´ve thought about it too. and i think you dont need to hung up on a idea of revenge or vengance for the sake of it.
i´ve been reading this pretty interesting book on decision making, and there is perfectly rational reasoning (based on individual measurable material profit maximization) on why forgiveness shouldnt be granted in most cases where repeated games are played, and why and how it usually leads to worse scenarios.
in repeated games (like israel/terrorists), by acquiring a reputation of forgiving (specially so if you are forgiving by default, because you cant retaliate even if you wanted to) the forgiving side would open itself to more punishment.

Plus, these factors just won't go away...it's also in the anti-Israeli interest to ensure poverty in Palestine and continue the culture of victimization which continues larger powers to wage war on Israel by proxy.

Palestine, pre-Israel, and its population weren't exactly dear to the rest of the Muslim world prior to Israel's creation anyhow. Other Arab states have adopted their cause in order to attack Israel, but continue to hold the Palestineans themselves at arm's length. They're happy to send them off with suicide bombs strapped on their bodies, but sure as heck don't want them coming over for dinner.

MD

thats very true.
west bank refugees situation can be traced back to the jordanian occupation. same with gaza.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I'm starting to like Ohio's wall idea.

Make the wall, make it reasonable, pull out all the settlements, and close off Israel from contact. North and South Korea style, if you have to. Continue to target the military wing of Hamas, but be VERY careful about not firing rockets from helicopters into crowds.

Of course, this would require sacrifices from both sides, so both sides will make sure the shooting doesn't stop. Tie aid to both sides to lack of military action.

Or, better yet, move Israel to New Mexico. 20/20 being hindsight...

i like ohios idea, i like the idea of the wall being built today. although not exactly a wall either.
yet, you are assuming a rational response again, from a side that previously demonstrate irrationality.

you could argue they showed irrationality to improve their leverage before. but am really wondering whether they are truly irrational, or just appear to for strategy.
the whole suicide thing throws off my suspicion of it being for the show.

We've been pretty successful co-opting Egypt. Perhaps there is a way to do that with Syria and Jordan as well? Lebanon...err...no good ideas there. That's going to be screwed up for at least the next 20 years.

the egypt deal has been succesful because there was the sinai incentive for egypt, plus the loads of money and toys they are getting now.

israel has no weighted bargaining chip against syria. the golan heights are of too much military value for israel to be bargaining chips, and of limited non-military value for syria.
if syria got it back in exchange of a promise, and they broke the promise... israel would take a heck of a lot of casualties and damage to get it back, since its necesary for israel security in the case of war.
jordan situation is substantially better. it has a peace treaty and formal relationships with israel and everything, so i dont think they are an inmediate concern.

 

[rockwool]

reading comprehension isnt your strenght i see.
i said "in the arab side, the most powerful side (even though it may not be representative) is the one that wants the jews thrown into the sea.."
that means that among the arab side, the terrorists faction is the most powerful and vocal side is the one that wants to wipe out the jews. like hezbollah.

Bad reading from my side, not a great strength of mine, no, sorry.
Don't know how they are devided in this question and wil there for not argue with you about it.

if those are your sources, no wonder you come up with stuff like these.
even the most technically clueless person with a tiny bit of common sense can tell no firework pieces kill people miles away consistently.

That paper is the biggest US ass kissing paper ever to exist in Sweden. That says a lot!
Don't know if I came out unclear, but they weren't refering to the missiles fired by Hizbollah, but the ones fired from Gaza. It is impossible to smuggle MLRS type rockets into Gaza since they don't come in the size of an AK-47.

not really. drastic isnt an absolute term. its a relative term.
you are drastic with kids if you yell at them. yelling at a suicide bomber or a katyusha-firing nut isnt drastic.

Areed. But Israels actions ARE drasticly inhumane and out of proportion, on both fronts.

peace is israels true goal. the hand has been stretched many times, land (without previous legal demarcation and legitimately gained in a defensive war) has been given to the palestinians (although its original owners were the egyptcians).
yet you see all that it causes is to give a false sense of triumph among some crazy pyromaniacs that they use as an excuse to continue the killings.

Their actions prove their words to be lies.
Hand filled with what? You saw what in that documentary Kevin posted.. Facts are out there even if the mainstream media don't show them...
Now your talking about peoples homes like it was a used car again
Those crazy pyromaniacs are just doing a small part of the killings. The big crazies are doing the major part. I don't think that if you killed one in my family and as an answer I killed a bunch of yours. Wouldn't you be even angrier then and just escalate the killing?

will answer the rest later, gotta go..

 

[rockwool]

you should stop quoting slanderous sources and dropping inflamatory lines full of cliches and big words way out of context if you want to be serious.
you pretty much state israel doesnt give a **** about world/UN opinion. you also recognize, and repeat, its means to unilateral action (4th military in the world, although i suspect the US, China, UK and Russia would be the top 4).
yet at the same time, you talk about a "true goal" that isnt TRUE, since if it was, then it would not be compatible with your other statements since, also in your view, a) israel has the means to do it and b) israel doesnt give a **** about what you say.
ultimately, you´ve got no proof for your "true goal" argument as of 2006, other than your skewed perseption and sources.

I wish they were "inflamatory lines full of cliches and big words way out of context" and not what is actually going on right now!

Are you having a hard time beliveing that Israel "doesnt give a **** about world/UN opinion" , again just take a look at their actions like the one in Lebanon recently where they killed four UN observers cold blooded.
Still not convinced and need a first hand statement to prove it? Read this:
Former congressman Paul Findley wrote why the American government continues to give Israel several billion dollars of the US tax payers moneyevery year.
Findley stated that zionists strongly influenced Americas politicians and indeed, according to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon himslefe was reportedly boasting of Jewish influence over America.

Sharon reportedly stated:
"Every time we do something, you tell me the Americans will do this and that. I want to make something very clear. Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America. And the Americans know it."
-Ariel Sharon as cited in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

In Paul Findley's book "They Dare To Speak Out" he writes that people in institutions confront Isreals lobby, that nearly all the US governments elected leaders, both republican and democrat alike, recieved vast sums of campaign money from the pro zionist political action committees or pacts, which often have deceiving names to hide this fact.

About Israel having the 4th largest military in the world, it didn't say anything in the CIA world fact book, the only thing of interest was the expenditures of these countries, which says some (we could feed a lot of people):
US Military expenditures : $518.1 billion (FY04 est.) (2005 est.)
Russias Military expenditures : NA...
Chinas Military expenditures : $81.48 billion (2005 est.)
UK's Military expenditures : $42,836.5 million (2003)
Israels Military expenditures : $9.45 billion (2005 est.)

It is Israels true goal to anexize Palestine into a greater Israel. "Transfer" is the Israeli official term for it and is nothing but another frase for "ethnic clensing, throwing people into the sea and lebensraum.
Of course if Israel were to throw all Palestinians into the sea/Sinai desert what ever, there would probably too big reaction from the whole world and don't expect the masters of propaganda and cynical tactics to make that misstake.
The ethnic clensing will take another several years and will not look like caravans of 5? million people walking with all they can carry in their hands.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

oh, ****, i give up the chest thumping...

 

[rockwool]

colonial powers?? lol, when did i say any word loosely related to "colony"??.

You've made me work... :redhot:

you can compare it to the spanish colonies when the spaniards left in the early 1800s.


the jews got theirs from the legal holders (UK), just like the syrian and lebanese got theirs from the french, the jordanians and so on.....


a jordanian state (arab) was created. thats right there already another country cut from the same colony.


you can make a perfectly sound argument based on the balcanization of former european colonies

the legal status of the west bank is "up for grabs" since the british left.

lets say tomorrow a new continent is discovered. US borders are defined right not, but if the US decides to call dibs on the new continent, and the world recognizes that... then it becomes US land and the US borders shift.

now, the fact israel borders are set /.../ has no prejudice on the fact israel borders can shift towards land legally up for grabs (the west bank).

israel got the west bank from jordan in 67

legally, the west bank is still up for grabs.

it was already taken, BY THE BRITISH.
they in 1917 promised a chunk to the jews.

jordan (defacto controller of the west bank) started the 67 war.

hmm, palestine (if by that you mean the west bank) was de facto parto of jordan pre-67.
gaza on the other hand, was also de-facto part of egypt.

plus anyways, it was taken from jordan (who in turn took it after 48)

...colonial powers, who you still today obviously want the world to obey under, or rather just their sence of what is right, just and was the law in their days. Needless to say that reasoning is totaly :nuts:
What ever right to colonize land Jordan, Britain. France, Turkey, Egypt or any country thought it had, anywhere, due to fascist like ideology was lost as mankind and common sence evolved in the 20'th century. No special priviligies for you nobles. Massa can pick his own damn cotton.

 

[rockwool]

So now Isreal is bombing Palestine and Lebanon. I guarantee you that Palestine and Lebanon are not going to just sit there and take it up the ass. How long before this escalates to a nuclear war?

Found this site and what can I say...

http://www.nostradamusonline.com/

"In May 2004, members of the Italian National Library in Rome made an amazing discovery. Buried in their archives was an unknown manuscript written by the famed prophet Michel de Notradame, or Nostradamus (1503-1566). This manuscript was handed down to his son and later donated to Pope Urban VIII. It did not surface again until now, almost four hundred years later.

Due to the pressure and scrutiny of the Inquisition, Nostradamus was forced to scramble both the meaning and the order of his quatrains. He made sure humanity would not be able to use them until we had become sophisticated enough to decode them. That time has finally arrived. "

"I'm afraid the making of World War III is actually taking place in front of our eyes." Prince Hassan of Jordan - March 26, 2004

...dunno if all of his prophesies have come true, but many of them have...
Personally I belive that this world as we know it is comming to an end, but I didn't think it would be so soon. Rather in 30-50 years.

 

[rockwool]

From the sampled chapter:

"Chapter Four: The Time of Troubles

Volcanoes, earthquakes, floods, droughts, famines, rioting

(Century IV, Quatrain 67)

The Time of Troubles begins with a period of geological shifts. Frequent earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and disrupted weather systems become the norm. This will cause widespread famines and droughts, and social upheavals in unexpected places. Nations that are considered prosperous and powerful, particularly western nations, will be weakened. They will be torn with civil strife and rioting as people migrate to areas that have water and can support crop-growing. The social upheaval and weakening of political structures will help the Antichrist come to power.

The United States in particular will be subject to serious natural disasters, particularly earthquakes and flooding, and flatten the nation from end to end, causing enormous conflict, despair, and misery. The US will be bankrupted attempting to deal with its disasters. Three other great nations will send aid to help the citizens survive."

"Crazed leader launches nuclear bombs on Mediterranean and Europe

(Century II, Quatrains 3 and 4)

During a period of continuing unrest, the leader of a Middle Eastern country will be able to obtain a nuclear weapon. He will go to the greatest lengths over the smallest things and will not hesitate to use the weapon because of his obsessions with deadly warfare. The people he is warring against retaliate with a nuclear weapon. The country has a coast on the Mediterranean."

"American Electoral College voting stalemate

(Century VII, Quatrain 41)

The presidents of the United States, a supposedly free country, have been abusing their power to an increasingly greater extent. During a time of social unrest even more so than the period of Vietnam and Watergate, the Electoral College will be evenly split over the election of the new president. The process will stalemate, with many people clamoring for whichever candidate they voted for, causing enormous tension in the country. "

"Antichrist's rise to power in Middle East

(Century II, Quatrains 23 and 81)

The Antichrist will take over Iran by using a human decoy to trick the Ayatollah in power. This will involve the "yes men" and sycophants of the Ayatollah's court. The Antichrist will first drive away internal supporters of the Ayatollah by starting a civil war. Then he will put forth a man as a leader, a man for Iranians loyal to the Ayatollah to concentrate their hate on. The man will be assassinated while Iran is being taken over, and his opponents will think they have foiled the overthrow of power by assassinating him. But they will find out later he was merely a decoy and that they played into the plans of the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will initially obtain power in his own sphere, Asia, and the Middle East. As he grows out of this arena, and into Europe, the next step will be into the Mediterranean, his area of strength. Because of his Middle Eastern heritage he will have already united North Africans, who are sympathetic to his cultural background, with his Asian and Middle Eastern conglomerate."

 

[Greyhound]

Religion of peace?

Just a few gems from the Quran:

Direct quotes from the Quran:

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Hadith 8:82:800e [So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?]

The Prophet said, "The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter." (Hadith 8:82:801)

(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)

Contrast that with what Jesus said:

"But I say to you, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Be merciful as your Father is merciful. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Jesus, SON of God


Again, Mohammad first went to the Jews as a prophet, writing of peace; was rejected. Mohammad then went to the Christians claiming to be a prophet and wrote peace; was rejected. Mohammad went back to his own people and was rejected until he (for a short time) said Allah allowed them to worship Allah's daughters. Mohammad then began to slaughter unbelievers and masterminded over 60 massacres, and the Quran changed dramatically to hate, that is why there are so many contradictions. That is also why there are so many familiar phrases and precepts between the religions. Mohammad appeared on the scene over 600 years after Jesus was resurrected, he tried to claim to be a prophet, though illiterate, he knew the scriptures of the Bible well. But "Allah" is certainly NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The characters are exactly opposite! In fact the Hebrew phonetic word Allah (aw-law) means to lament, mourn and curse. (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #421, 422, 423)

Hate Muslims? NO! Jesus would never have advocated hating anybody! But should we insist our children "assume you are a Muslim soldier" about to conquer a nation? Should they memorize the tenants of Islam, repeat the words, pray to Allah, build Mosques, imagine they are Muslim and write what they like about it? NO!!! And at the same time, school textbooks claim that the Old Testament prophets could not tell the future (yes they could when God revealed it to them countless times!). Additionally, the textbooks actually teach that the Israelites only accepted what the prophets told them so they could explain away the disasters they went through!

"Across the Centuries" and "Message of Ancient Days" claim the religion of Islam is truth, (beliefs are given as fact) and that Judeo-Christian beliefs are false. Public schools INSIST our children learn this. WHERE ARE OUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS???

 

[Silver]

Found this site and what can I say...

http://www.nostradamusonline.com/

Dude...that's as crazy as looking to the book of Revelation for clues as to how the future is.

Thankfully, no one important in the USA does that...

 

[Greyhound]

Alan Dershowitz weighs in......

-------------------------------


Terrorism Causes Occupation, Not Vice Versa (91 comments )
READ MORE: Israel, Lebanon

The oft-reported mantra that "occupation causes terrorism" has been disproved over and over again by history and contemporary experience.

Just this week, the old myth was once again uncut by the arrests in Britain of two-dozen suspects in a plot to blow up ten commercial airliners. There is no British occupation about which the suspects care.
Britain, of course, is one of the freest countries on Earth. The suspects do not live--and apparently have not lived--under occupation (unless they consider the entire Christian world to be occupied by "crusaders." And yet the same slogan--that occupation causes terrorism--will persist.

Consider some of these examples as well:

• First, Palestinian terrorism began well before there was any occupation. It began in 1929 when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ordered a terrorist attack against Jewish residents of Hebron, whose families had lived in that Jewish holy city for generations.

• Second, other occupied people, for example the Tibetans, have never resorted to terrorism against innocent Chinese civilians, though their occupation has been longer and more brutal than anything experienced by the Palestinians.

• Third, terrorism against Israel got worse after Israel ended its occupation of southern Lebanon and Gaza, as these unoccupied lands became launching pads for rockets, missiles and kidnappings.

• Fourth, while it may be that a brutal occupation may increase the number of people willing to become suicide bombers, it is also true that no suicide bomber ever sent himself. They are sent by well educated, affluent leaders like Osama bin Laden, who do not live in occupied areas but who have terrorized the U.S., Australia, Great Britain and Spain, which do not occupy any Arab lands.

• Fifth, Islamic terrorists have sworn to continue terrorism even if Israel were to end its occupation of the West Bank, as it did of the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon. They regard all of Israel as occupied. Even if there were no Israel, terrorism would persist as long as any part of the world is not under Islamic control.

Accordingly, occupation does not cause terrorism. Terrorism is caused by the culture of death preached by radical Islamic clerics and by the world's reaction to it--namely making concessions and blaming the victims of terrorism who fight back. Terrorism persists because it is rewarded--because it works. Occupation does not cause terrorism, but terrorism does cause occupation and reoccupation. Israel would have left Gaza and much of the West Bank long ago if not for the fear of terrorism from that area. It never would have gone into southern Lebanon in 1982 were that area not being used as a base for terrorism. Now Israel has once again entered southern Lebanon to stop rocket attacks and try to retrieve its kidnapped soldiers.

If the international community cannot or will not protect Israel citizens against cross-border rocket attacks, kidnappings and suicide bombings, Israel will have no choice other than some limited and hopefully temporary form of reoccupation to protect itself. Nor will it leave the West Bank unless it can be assured that the areas it leaves will not become launching pads for increased terrorism. Israel is willing to give land for peace, but it is not willing to give land for terrorism. No nation would be willing to be so suicidal.

Most recently, when Israeli forces left Gaza after a two day occupation, a rocket from Gaza hit an Israeli kindergarten, sending eight children to the hospital. This occurred despite leaflets left behind by departing Israeli soldiers warning of dire consequences if rockets were fired from the areas they left. What should Israel do in this situation?

Imagine what the U.S. would have done if Germany or Japan, which it occupied after World War II, persisted in attacking the United States from occupied or recently unoccupied areas. And Germany and Japan do not adjoin our country the way Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon adjoin Israel.

There is, of course, a difference between civilian settlements and a military presence in a hostile war zone. Regardless of what happens in Lebanon, Israel should begin to dismantle civilian settlements deep in the West Bank that have no military purpose--indeed that divert military resources from areas where they are really needed. But it will be difficult to end completely the military presence--the checkpoints, the teams that search out terrorists, the network of electronic protections--without the assurance of an international force that will be at least as effective in controlling terrorism as the Israeli army has been.

There has been far less terrorism from the occupied West Bank than from the unoccupied south Lebanon and Gaza. That lesson will not be lost on Israelis as they look to the future.

Alan Dershowitz is a professor of law at Harvard. He is the author, most recently, of Preemption: A Knife That Cuts Both Ways. His website is www.alandershowitz.com.

 

[Silver]

Contrast that with what Jesus said:

"But I say to you, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Be merciful as your Father is merciful. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Jesus, SON of God

You know, when the followers of Jesus actually start to act like that, instead of taking inspiration from the genocidal maniac who guest stars as God in the Old Testament, then you can level that charge.

You have very few people on this particular board arguing that Islam is a good thing...

 

[blue]

Religion of peace?

Oh God, like the Old Testament doesn't go off on the same crap?

Please. **** the Christians. **** the Muslims. Break out of the make-myself-feel-better mentality.

 

[rockwool]

Religion of peace?

I don't know if you're trying to answer what I wrote in the " If you are a liberal, post your Middle East Peace solutions here" thread but np.


--ONe thing to bear in mind is taht them quotes are taken out of context. Why that is important you can clearly see here:

"O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them."
-What the Qur'an is saying here is; If they're comming to kill you and steal all your ****, don't pussy out.

"And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, /.../ but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors."
-If they have tried to seduce you once, left, and then ocme back again to step over you...

"The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, /.../ except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)"
-I don't know what PIT means here, but again Allah shows mercy to those who show regret for their actions.

"THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)"
-The wicked, or to use a bushoite expression that you're familiar with, the evil doers, want you to become one of them, but have nothing to do with them in any way until they change their wicked ways.

" [So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?]"
-I think what it says here is that they sin, and them sins are not acts of a muslim.
"But if he repents, faith returns to him like this"
-When christians sin they ask for forgivness, and after that they are just as much christian aren't they?

"Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter." (Hadith 8:82:801)"

"(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)"
-Is this taken out from where they are taught how to pray? Context is everything.

-As I understand this:
"WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)
-It is they belived in this:
"If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children"
-So they decide to stay clear of them.

"And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)"
-Mastery becasue of the claim of "the one and only true religion"? Christians and Jews claim that too, dunno 'bout buddihsts and hindu's.


I find it of greater importance to consentrate on the positive things i come in touch with in life. Altough I know that in the Qur'an, God commands muslims to defend them selves in the event of an attack, but not to go to exesses in a conflict.

"Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but not to go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits." (Qur'an 2:190)

"O You who belive! Show integrity for the sake of God, bearing whitness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to faith. Heed God [alone]. God is aware of what you do." (Qur'an 5:8)

In the Qur'an, God calls on belivers to bring peace and tolerance to the world. He commands people to behave with justice regardless of race, language or creed.
For that reason it is out of the question for muslims to feel hostility towards Jews, because of their religion and beliefs.
According to the Qur'an the Jews are people of the Book, in other words, people who belive in the revelations of God.
The attitude a muslim must adopt toward people of the Book is one of justice, tolerance and kindness.
Killing a person for no reason is one of the greatest sins in the Qur'an.
The prophet also warned his followers not to harm civilians.


IMHO, if people followed thier respective Books instead of political ideologies, we would have a totally different world.
There was peace in the region since the 7th century, with breaks for them three crusades and when the rule changed from the califes to the ottomans in about 1500 AD.
Then the IWW stepped in with colonization of the area and the britts promised occupied land to the zionists who were aggressive and did not want to live in peace with the muslims like the ~5% Jewish populatoin that had lived in Palestine for ages.

 

[rockwool]

Dude...that's as crazy as looking to the book of Revelation for clues as to how the future is.

Thankfully, no one important in the USA does that...

I never meant it to be taken as "real", just to be looked at considering he's been right about a few stuff, and that with good accuracy, previously in history. There are several factual things (except doomsday predictions) pointing to that we are closing in at the end of another era; the US/British empire.

Another coincidence about this that I also saw in a documentary, is that in the first pyramids steps that lead up to the room of the Pharaoh Tutankhamun, on the left side there is a mark allong the wall where an inch represents a year. On this thing there are special markings taht some how coincide with major "happenings" through out history. That marking ends now..

Well, I find it a bit intriguing

 

[Greyhound]

You know, when the followers of Jesus actually start to act like that, instead of taking inspiration from the genocidal maniac who guest stars as God in the Old Testament, then you can level that charge.

You have very few people on this particular board arguing that Islam is a good thing...

I don't think anyone is acting like that on a whole.
We're not at war with Islam. Radicalized Islam, yes. I have NO problem with Muslims----just the ones that want to take my head off.

 

[rockwool]

I don't think anyone is acting like that on a whole.
We're not at war with Islam. Radicalized Islam, yes. I have NO problem with Muslims----just the ones that want to take my head off.

Man what are you talking about? You are on their backyard, chasing them with a chainsaw, not the opposite way around..