[S.K.C.]

O.K. - I know I'm in the minority here when it comes to the thought of running Avid's, but I'm just not happy with the way my Mags have been running...I'm no brake expert - so I was wondering what your thoughts were on this.

I'm running 05' Mags (were 9's, but swapped the levers out to Mags) with Goodridge lines/fittings and the OEM sintered pads (copper colored back plate)that came with my Demo 8.

Problems:
1. After approx. 4 or 5 runs, I'm getting brake fade - I'll go to pull the lever, and there isn't the same stopping power that was there on the first run. In this same situation, I'll pull on the lever even HARDER, to try and lock up the wheel - but it just won't lock... that freaks me out sometimes.

I tend to use the rear a lot to control my speed, cause I get nervous when the rear end starts to feel light during a rocky decent whilst feeding in front brake...

Speaking of which:
2. I know this is typical of most Hayes, but they are either "ON" or "OFF"... for example, I'll try squeezing the lever VERY gently to feed in some brake, and very little braking happens... So I'll keep riding with the brakes dragging until I get enough stoppage. But to do that, I'll be feeding in just a hair more brake at the lever a little bit at a time, and without much warning I've got full lock... that kinda bugs me too.

So my questions are:

1. Can I do something to correct this behavior in my Mags?
2. If not, how do the Juicy 7's feel compared to the Mags?

...we're talking 8" rotors and full DH riding conditions.

 

[zahgurim]

Hayes = poo

I never really had too many 'major' problems with my Hayes, but after riding Hope brakes I will never buy Hayes again. They just get hot on long runs.
I'll keep the ones I have, maybe putting them on my girlfriend's build. She doesn't go hard enough yet to worry about fade...
It takes switching to something else to comprehend what you've been missing. I've ridden the Juicys a few runs, but don't own any; they had nice modulation and feel pretty good. I prefer my Hopes though, but it's just personal preference. They're both better than Hayes...

 

[thaflyinfatman]

Sounds like you got a dud set (or maybe they're slightly contaminated). Clean the rotors with acetone, chuck in some new pads and try again. If you're getting brake fade, something's not right - is the lever feel (firmness) changing or just the brake power? If the lever feel is changing, then it may need a bleed or some repairs to the internals, but if it's just the power then I have a feeling contamination is to blame. I've done many runs on 7 minute + tracks that feature very heavy braking and never suffered fade with the Hayes.

That said, the Juicies feel nicer and pull up harder (I just got a set). Don't know how they handle excessive heat though, haven't had a chance to really put them through the wringer.

 

[DH Dad]

Funny thing, I have friends who've had the same experience with Mags and Goodrich lines. Always complained about the fade issue. I currently have 5 sets of Hayes Mags between my bikes and my wife's bikes, all with stock lines..., and have never had an issue with fade nor the ability to modulate my braking. One of my buddies, riding Juicy 5's now, rode my Ridge with my oldest set of Mags (1999 Hayes Mags with original fluid in the lines) and said if his Hayes ever felt as rock solid as mine did he never would have switched to the Avids. I did get a difficult set, my newest pair, in '04, had a heck of a time getting them properly set up but now they're as good as the others. Honestly though, my two best (most problem free) sets of Hayes Mags are my old gray 1999 pair and my 2001 pair. both of those I've never touched, came to me bled and have been rock solid ever since, simply bombproof.

 

[spacemanspiff06]

i got a set of juicy 5's (which is all you need, the 7's pad adjustment will just get riped off in your first wreck and the 5's set screw works just as good) about a month ago. swaped out for the 9's that came on my gemni. all three of my friends with hayes and my self have issues with hays from the set screw not staying in place, to new lines leaking out of the box, to major fad, and if the fad issues are worked out, the contact point moves out of the course of a long run from heat.
my 5's rocked the western side of snowshoe mtn last weekend. if you don't know the west side takes you ALL THE WAY DOWN the mtn, runs take at least 15 minuites, 30-45 if you cruse. my 5's kept the exact same (sweet) feel all the way down and never lost a bit of power. i could smell pads burning at the end of some runs, but the brakes felt fine.
bottom line- buy the 5's, they do what you need and they do it in style. use your hayes rotors ( i'm running this set-up, so i know it works) to avoid the turkey-call effect. if you've got the $ a set of hopes might be good, their modulation is a little better then juicys but i don't like the shape of the lever. i don't have any real time on a set, so i can't tell you more then that. good luck!

 

[LOOnatic]

Lightly sand down (scuff)your pads and rotors .....then some acetone,brake cleaner,etc.......
Are you the kind of guy who might clean the bike down with pledge or something and over sprays it on the brakes?


Oh.. i rode my fiends heckler which has the Juicy's and i was impressed.

 

[llkoolkeg]

I had a lot of trouble with my Hayes Mags(8/6) fading on my Chaparral at Diablo last Saturday, and I only did the easier runs on the mountain. They would get so hot, even though I tried to pump rather than grab them, that the lever would go to the bar with no resistance and no braking power. It was as if the fluid was boiling in the lines or something. Whenever it happened, I'd pull off the trail for a spliffybreak and let them cool off for a few minutes. After my chill, they would work just fine again. It ended up happening midway down on three of my six runs from 1:00 - 4:00 on a hot day.

 

[dante]

I had a lot of trouble with my Hayes Mags(8/6) fading on my Chaparral at Diablo last Saturday, and I only did the easier runs on the mountain. They would get so hot, even though I tried to pump rather than grab them, that the lever would go to the bar with no resistance and no braking power. It was as if the fluid was boiling in the lines or something. Whenever it happened, I'd pull off the trail for a spliffybreak and let them cool off for a few minutes. After my chill, they would work just fine again. It ended up happening midway down on three of my six runs from 1:00 - 4:00 on a hot day.

pulling to the bar sounds like you have air in the hose. haven't had a problem with either Mags or Juicy 7s fading, and they've gotten hot enough to burn one of my friends...

 

[S.K.C.]

thaflyinfatman:

Clean the rotors with acetone, chuck in some new pads and try again. If you're getting brake fade, something's not right - is the lever feel (firmness) changing or just the brake power?

-yup, I've already cleaned the rotors, but still have the same problem... Lever feel does seem to change a wee bit, but it's mostly the decrease in braking power that is bugging me.



DH Dad:

Funny thing, I have friends who've had the same experience with Mags and Goodrich lines. Always complained about the fade issue.

-actually the Goodridge lines are supposed to decrease fade, but I had this problem with the stock lines as well. That's why I switched.



Spacemanspiff06:

i got a set of juicy 5's (which is all you need, the 7's pad adjustment will just get riped off in your first wreck and the 5's set screw works just as good)

- yeah, I was riding with some guys at Diablo, and one of them had Juicy 7's on his VP-Free and smashed his dial... I've seen Pros run their Juicy 7's upside-down (left lever on right, and vise-versa) to minimize damage, which is what I might do... Through development with BlackBox Avid is coming out with the Juicy 7 Carbon - full Ti hardware, carbon lever blades, AND machined aluminum adj. dials... I'm seriously considering those.

my 5's rocked the western side of snowshoe mtn last weekend. if you don't know the west side takes you ALL THE WAY DOWN the mtn, runs take at least 15 minuites, 30-45 if you cruse. my 5's kept the exact same (sweet) feel all the way down and never lost a bit of power. i could smell pads burning at the end of some runs, but the brakes felt fine.

-nice...that's good to hear.


LOONatic:

Lightly sand down (scuff)your pads and rotors

-yup, I've done that too... worked for a little bit, but then same problems all over again.

Are you the kind of guy who might clean the bike down with pledge or something

-LOL, no I'm not like a meticulous Hummer H2 owner - she's built for the dirt, and that's her best look. I'll clean off moving parts, but that's it.


Hmmm... I just ordered some new Galfer pads - think that might help?

I'm running OEM Sintered-Metallic pads right now - I've heard they don't provide as much stopping power as Semi-Metallic ones. Think that might solve my problems with fade???

 

[8it]

I've had problems with my mags ever since I gott'em in 2002. I never felt like they were set-up properly, they never felt like they had the stopping power that they should've. I bled them, changed pads, lines everything and I was never happy.
This year my new LBS put the same brakes on my DH bike. I wanted to get new brakes but the mechanic wanted to "try something". The mechanic swaped the lines, put new pads and switched the levers (front to back and vice a versa). I swear that they feel AMAZING like a totally different set of brakes. Stopping power like you would not believe, modulations is beautiful and the feel is just great! You just need to get yourself a bike witch doctor to lay down the good voodoo on your mags like I did.

 

[go-ride.com]

The problems you are mentioning sound like a bleed issue to me. The reason I say that is that you are having problems after 4 or 5 runs, not during every run. The time between DH runs, either on a chair or shuttling, is plenty to cool the brake system. My guess is you have a random air bubble that gets shaken loose by loading the bike on a angle. You should bleed them carefully and pump the lever as you do.

The newer G2 caliper is harder to bleed than the older G1. I've found that even with very careful bleeding the G2s often take a re-bleed to get them just right.

 

[douglas]

I have that set screw problem on my new hayes too :mumble:

 

[Pau11y]

I've found if you flip your bike upside down, any trapped air will show up. When I build my Tomac, I had this issue come up again and again. I'd bleed it and it'd feel perfect. Flip the bike upside down to store (ceiling hooks) and when I come back to it in 24 hours, I can pull the lever to the bar. So I took the brakes off the bike, mounted it to a bar I had clamped in my stand, and had the lever body's top hole at exactly (well, as close as the eye can get it) 45 degrees and rebled. That's what finally did the trick and I did see s couple of bubbles come thru. I then let them sit for another hour (all hooked up) and ran another small bottle of fluid thru again to be sure. No bubbles, done.
So far, no fade. I use the older and heavier type w/ the purple body. I also have a set of mags too and did the same treatment. That was a year and a half ago and no fade there either.
On another note, I'm using Avids 7" rotor w/ my Hayes Mag on my '04 Enduro Pro. Everything fit w/ the exception of some spacers needed in the front adapter which was mounted upside down. I'm hoping for slightly more stoping power vs. the stock 160mm Hayes rotors. The 8" would be too big for the rear.

 

[Pau11y]

I have that set screw problem on my new hayes too :mumble:

Lindsee oil or spoke prep. Just a dab will do ya.

 

[BMXman]

The problems you are mentioning sound like a bleed issue to me. The reason I say that is that you are having problems after 4 or 5 runs, not during every run. The time between DH runs, either on a chair or shuttling, is plenty to cool the brake system. My guess is you have a random air bubble that gets shaken loose by loading the bike on a angle. You should bleed them carefully and pump the lever as you do.

The newer G2 caliper is harder to bleed than the older G1. I've found that even with very careful bleeding the G2s often take a re-bleed to get them just right.

I agree...I'm running completely stock set up and no problems what so ever...D

 

[Jeremy R]

I agree...I'm running completely stock set up and no problems what so ever...D

Same here.
I feel that the new ones are better than ever.
I am running on 6+ years of Hayes reliability.
It pretty much goes like this:
A total hemmorroid to bleed:
Then ride until you replace the pads and then ride some more.
Never had a loss of power problem or any other problem (besides putting the whole lever assembly into a tree).
One of the best overall products I have used through the years.

 

[S.K.C.]

James from Go-Ride:

The problems you are mentioning sound like a bleed issue to me.

- ...hmmm I was thinking that in the back of my mind. Funny thing is that I'm at my LBS so much to begin with (repairs, upgrades, etc.) that I think they're gettin sick of seein' my punk-a$$ there all the time.

The newer G2 caliper is harder to bleed than the older G1. I've found that even with very careful bleeding the G2s often take a re-bleed to get them just right.

- I think I'm gonna try and take each brake system off of my bike one at a time, and hang them from a workbench, keep the lines as straight as possible, and bleed them in this manner. I'll have to do it with one of the tech. guys there. Maybe that will do it.

 

[dexter]

went from hayes since i started this stuff a long time ago and switched to avids this year and will never go back

 

[buildyourown]

- yeah, I was riding with some guys at Diablo, and one of them had Juicy 7's on his VP-Free and smashed his dial... I've seen Pros run their Juicy 7's upside-down (left lever on right, and vise-versa) to minimize damage, which is what I might do...

You don't have to flip the lever. You can remove the dial and install it upside down. In fact save yourself some money and buy the juicy 5s. I really haven't found the red dial adjustment very useful. It doesn't do much that you can't do with the set screw.

 

[Castle]

I've seen Pros run their Juicy 7's upside-down (left lever on right, and vise-versa) to minimize damage

you just flip the red starwheel or pad contact adjuster to the back of the lever about a 10min (if that) process to do both levers

there is a c-clip you remove then a washer, then unscrew the starwheel, thread the star wheel back into the (now) backside or underneath of the lever, replace washer, then c-clip and done

the now front or top of my front brake

the starwheel/pad contact adjuster still spins freely, is nicely tucked away. I believe with a sram trigger set up the star wheel would contact the shifter (Acadian might be able to chime in in on this, I think he was using a similar set up on one of his bikes). With the Shimano shifters it fits fine......

 

[Castle]

You don't have to flip the lever. You can remove the dial and install it upside down. In fact save yourself some money and buy the juicy 5s. I really haven't found the red dial adjustment very useful. It doesn't do much that you can't do with the set screw.

What he said! The 5's rock!

 

[Zutroy]

Def sounds like a bleed issue to me. I have 4 sets of hayes and never had a problem with them. 3 are stock lines the DH has Galfer Stainless lines...very nice. To me all the top end brakes work, just a matter of give and take and what ya want.

 

[SpasticJack]

I've found that using a big syringe works much better than the bottle for bleeding Hayes brakes. You get much more even pressure and more control ove the fluid that way. I also switch back and forth between regular and blue fluids so I know when I've totally purged the system out.

 

[S.K.C.]

Castle - thanx for the great pix - I think I'm gonna do that when I get my 7's next season - probably going to get the BlackBox Carbon ones...


...hot damn Jack - that's a great idea... shoulda thought of that myself.

What kind of syringe do you use? - Is it one that comes with a bleed kit from another manufacturer? How big a syringe is it? - I'm assuming it has to have a pretty large volume to make for a successful purge...

BTW - nice Hunter quote...

 

[J]

You should also clean the rotors. The brakes might start to fade again after you clean the pads because of rotor contamination. Clean them with rubbing alcohal after 'lightly' sanding the surface.

Also might want to look into El caminos?

-J

 

[S.K.C.]

...yeah... I was really pumped about the El Caminos when they first came out, but after I thought about it for a bit, I realized that the dial placement on the levers was a serious weak spot in the system...

At least for me anyway - I'm not the smoothest rider - yet... So I've been know to ditch my bike in some pretty extreme bails. I can see those dials being the first thing to bash against something in the event of a crash.

At least on the Juicy 5's there's just a set screw, and on the 7's the dials are located on top of the lever/master cylinder - and on the 7's you can move them to the underside of the lever...

As far as cleaning the rotors - already have done that... no change.