[buildyourown]

I'm no engineer but I don't think this is accurate. Like a lot of people I think you are confusing "four bar" with "Horst Link." The terminology can be confusing but if you do a search there are plenty of technical articles that explain it. I'm pretty sure a Kona is a four bar, it just has the wheel path of a single pivot.

ok, this turns into a ****storm every 3 months, but hear me out. I know there are plenty of people who will contradict me.

Look at a kona. You have a swingarm attached to the frame and the axle. The swingarm is attached to a pushlink aka dogbone. The dogbone is attached to a rocker. How is that different from a DHR which everyone agrees is a single pivot?

 

[OGRipper]

ok, this turns into a ****storm every 3 months, but hear me out. I know there are plenty of people who will contradict me.

Look at a kona. You have a swingarm attached to the frame and the axle. The swingarm is attached to a pushlink aka dogbone. The dogbone is attached to a rocker. How is that different from a DHR which everyone agrees is a single pivot?

Heh, yeah I know, it does turn into a storm every now and then and that's partly why I'm a little surprised to hear it from you. There is a technical definition of four bar suspension describing bars, struts, etc. It is a widely accepted definition, shows up in textbooks and so forth. A turner might actually fit that description but my small brain starts to fade a little whenever I really get into it. The size of the links and bars has nothing to do with it.

In the bike world some people use "single pivot" to describe any bike (like a kona or a heckler) that relies on one pivot for its wheelpath. But wheelpath isn't the whole story. Bikes can technically be "four bar" and still have the wheel path of a single pivot. That's where it gets confusing.

So look at a Kona. Is it a single pivot? Well, the wheel moves like a single pivot bike, but it has more than one pivot. Is it a four bar? Yes, I'm pretty sure it is. Is it an FSR/Horst Link? No. It doesn't have to be a Horst link to be a four bar.

If I am wrong I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure about what I'm saying.

 

[buildyourown]

Well, if your right about a kona being a 4 bar, then the DHR is a 4 bar too.

 

[Ian Collins]

ok, this turns into a ****storm every 3 months, but hear me out. I know there are plenty of people who will contradict me.

Look at a kona. You have a swingarm attached to the frame and the axle. The swingarm is attached to a pushlink aka dogbone. The dogbone is attached to a rocker. How is that different from a DHR which everyone agrees is a single pivot?

Here's the problem...there are 4 types of suspension systems....Single Pivots, Rate Modifiers, Axle Path Modifiers, and a combination of both....most axle path modifiers are a combo, but do very little in terms of rate modifying....

typical rate modifiers: Turner, Kona, Giant DH, Brooklyn linkage, all moto's(except ****ty KTM's) are all rate modifiers...

typical axle path modifiers: Horst setups, M1, Demos, V10, M3 etc....anything where there is any form of articulation between the rear axle and the main pivot

combination: um...well there aren't many bikes that have axle path modifiers that are very strong rate modifiers....I guess the sunday counts, and that's all I can really think of

Single pivots: anything with no articulation between the rear axle and the main pivot....Konas, Bullits, orange, foes, DHR etc....some single pivots have rate modifying linkages, and some do not....for example DHR does, orange Doesn't

hope this clears things up for the masses, but i'm sure most everyone still doesn't understand this simple concept

 

[WheelieMan]

Well, if your right about a kona being a 4 bar, then the DHR is a 4 bar too.

Right.

Both Konas and DHRs have the same amount of pivots and suspension members, so they are the same basic suspension design. Which is a Four-Bar.

 

[mobius]

Kona = Faux Bar

 

[Zutroy]

Kona = Faux Bar

Ahhh someone who has read the specialied marketing propaganda

 

[mobius]

No someone who knows his suspension and hates kona. I know its just a single pivot i just call it faux bar cause it rides like crap compared to a fsr.

 

[Ian Collins]

cause it rides like crap compared to a fsr.

that all has very little to do with the horst link...i'm assuming you already know that because you are a self proclaimed person how knows suspension

....fabien barel doesn't think his kona rides like crap

I don't even like kona's either, i'm just being argumentative...

 

[DRB]

I've been to four bars.

 

[dogwonder]

I've been to four bars.

Bummer man...you need to get out more...I think I had been to 4 bars before I was 18...

 

[Kornphlake]

The problem is somebody coined the phrase 4 bar as it applies to bicycles without knowing anything about engineering. The term 4 bar existed in kinematics long before full suspension bicycles were ever concieved. Engineering type folks understand that the term 4 bar simply means 4 pivots in any arrangement, it's a generic term that has absolutely nothing to do with a shock, an axle, brake jack, tire clearance, the color rootbeer, or any of that. In cycling jargon the term 4 bar seems to have been given a specific meaning which would be synonomous with Horst link, in an effort to exclude the Turner walking beam, Foes swing link, RM thrust link, or any other linkage for that matter. Somehow we've extrapolated that anything that does not have a horst link is a single pivot reguardless of the number of pivots or how the shock is activated. I suppose from an ignorant layman's point of view this definition is correct, the wheel path of any of the "single-pivot" bikes is a circular arc about the main pivot. From the point of view of an engineer who knows nothing about cycling jargon, only bikes like the Bullit are considered single pivots, they're the only suspension that have just a single pivot (shock pivots don't count here.)

So I guess we're all right, if you're an engineer a DHR is just as much of a 4 bar as a Kona which is just as much of a 4 bar as an Epic or a 5 spot. For the person who studies MBA religously and scours manufacturers websites yet has never cracked a textbook, there is a difference between a bike with a horst link and a bike with a linkage driven shock in applying the term 4 bar.

Personally I'd never call a Kona or a DHR anything less than a 4 bar, much less a faux bar. That's mostly because I associate with engineers who would think of me as unprofessional and incompetent if I were to say something like that. I'd think the same thing of Binary Visions, Zedro, DW, Ian Collins, BCD and (honestly) Buildyourown, as they all express themselves as competent engineering type folks.

 

[dogwonder]

it's a generic term that has absolutely nothing to do with a shock, an axle, brake jack, tire clearance, the color rootbeer, or any of that.

What the hell? I thought the color rootbeer was wholly dependent on four bar linkage? That's why speci doesn't use it...

 

[Kornphlake]

What the hell? I thought the color rootbeer was wholly dependent on four bar linkage? That's why speci doesn't use it...

Are you kidding??? The Endruo with that poop brown color was a feeble attempt by specialized to imitate the rootbeer gnarcoreness of freeride glory. Rootbeer Bullitz fo' life!

 

[Jm_]

Dealing with the effects of specialized's marketing campaigns has caused me much grief in the bike business. The real sad part is how the shops and reps that sell them will just feed this crap and misinformation to customers.

 

[buildyourown]

Personally I'd never call a Kona or a DHR anything less than a 4 bar, much less a faux bar. That's mostly because I associate with engineers who would think of me as unprofessional and incompetent if I were to say something like that. I'd think the same thing of Binary Visions, Zedro, DW, Ian Collins, BCD and (honestly) Buildyourown, as they all express themselves as competent engineering type folks.

Well maybe we need to throw out the term 4 bar and refer to them as horst links.
I've never seen the technical definition of a 4 bar suspension. I'm not a formally trained engineer. I don't design car suspension. I make airplanes and medical devices. (Scary, I know) What I know about suspension I learned from rebuilding trucks and building bikes.
Like all good marketing, I think the term 4 bar was designed to confuse us.

 

[OGRipper]

So I guess we're all right, if you're an engineer a DHR is just as much of a 4 bar as a Kona which is just as much of a 4 bar as an Epic or a 5 spot. For the person who studies MBA religously and scours manufacturers websites yet has never cracked a textbook, there is a difference between a bike with a horst link and a bike with a linkage driven shock in applying the term 4 bar.

Yeah but is the person who studied MBA but is using the wrong terms really right? Part of the confusion among the masses stems from wide acceptance of the incorrect terminology. I'm one of those annoying people who doesn't agree that wide acceptance makes it correct.

I like Ian's breakdown. But aren't the vpp bikes combinations too? My understanding is that the shock rate changes throughout the travel, not just in progressive or falling way but similar the supposed "S" curve of the axle (and I am aware that the "S" is not nearly as pronounced as some people think.)

 

[dogwonder]

Are you kidding??? The Endruo with that poop brown color was a feeble attempt by specialized to imitate the rootbeer gnarcoreness of freeride glory. Rootbeer Bullitz fo' life!

My point exactly, the horst link threw it to poop brown. Rootbeer can only be accomplished through the Zen combination of true 4 bar linkage and lots of alcohol.

 

[buildyourown]

I like Ian's breakdown. But aren't the vpp bikes combinations too? My understanding is that the shock rate changes throughout the travel, not just in progressive or falling way but similar the supposed "S" curve of the axle (and I am aware that the "S" is not nearly as pronounced as some people think.)

This has been hashed out too. It's impossible to make a bike with a linear rate. Some designer actually give the rate some thought, others don't.

 

[Kornphlake]

Well maybe we need to throw out the term 4 bar and refer to them as horst links.
I've never seen the technical definition of a 4 bar suspension. I'm not a formally trained engineer. I don't design car suspension. I make airplanes and medical devices. (Scary, I know) What I know about suspension I learned from rebuilding trucks and building bikes.
Like all good marketing, I think the term 4 bar was designed to confuse us.

I'll have to walk back and ask our machine shop supervisor what a 4 bar is, he rides bikes, maybe he'll make the same mistake you made. I guess I assumed because you dabble in metallurgy, bearings, plastics and what not as a machinist, you'd have been exposed to some kinematics. Don't feel bad, you can still run circles around me with a mill or a welding torch, I don't even know how to properly grind a drill bit. All I've learned about machining is about as useful as all you've learned about engineering, maybe even less useful.

Having a technical background I assume that you can accept the concept of a 4 bar being a generic term relating to everything from linkages on tractors to a folding table leg. Calling the 4 bar linkage on a bike a Faux bar or a single pivot is like mistakenly calling a mill a drill press then saying that a simple drill press isn't a drill press because it doesn't do all the nifty things a mill can do.

I agree with OGRipper just because everybody calls something it's not doesn't make it right. But in this case I don't think it's really going to make that much difference, people will continue to follow marketing because it may be the only resource they have avaliable that's written in a way they can understand. I suppose the burden of translation lies on the shoulders of those who have an engineering background and can distinguish between a horst link and a 4 bar and interperet what the non-geek is trying to say.

 

[Ian Collins]

But aren't the vpp bikes combinations too? My understanding is that the shock rate changes throughout the travel, not just in progressive or falling way but similar the supposed "S" curve of the axle

You're right, VPP's are combinations, but they really don't affect the rate quite as much as they're cracked up to...99% of what you read about what they do for suspension is just marketing BS.....Most of the ones on the market have nearly linear rates..... or at least they are so linear that I'd rather have an orange or a morewood(single pivot) to save some weight and avoid all those useless pivots which don't do much for the suspension in terms of progressivity, and they don't really do all that much for pedalling or braking in terms of effeciency and isolation respectively...

The S curve of the axle is ridiculous hype(santa cruz, M3)....I spoke to a certain sus. guru who actually mapped the axle path and the "sweet spot" (where the axle path switches from going up and forwards to up and backwards) where you supposedly should have "optimum efficiency" is all within a 2-3mm travel range along the axle path....It would be nearly impossible to set up the correct valving, spring rate, and sag so that when you're sprinting, it would be in that range along the axle path...it's just totally unrealistic hype.....

So...VPP is an axle path modifier that attempts to accomplish some sort of rate modifications, but fails miserably, and along with that you have too many moving parts, unnessecary floating brake arms, etc.....

hope this clears things up a bit, but I typed all fast and it probably doesn't read too well

EDIT: just read buildyuorowns post.....all bikes do have some sort of rate modification....when i say rate modifier, i'm talking about something like a Turner DHR, or a Giant, PDC, something with a bell crank linkage that gives and extreme increase of progressivity.....when I say axle path modifier I mean an M1 or a V10, or a Demo 8/9....something that does have some rate modification, but that wasn't the intent of the design/pivot placement....they do modify the rate, but not enough to notice on the trail

 

[OGRipper]

Well, I just read something on an old post that I had saved from MTBR that might help, or might just make it more confusing. Dude went on a long diatribe about 4-bars and makes the distinction between 4-bar "linkage" and 4-bar "suspension." He uses terms such as "coupler" and "follower links" and says that a Kona is a 4-bar linkage but NOT a 4-bar suspension.

I can't seem to get it to work, something wrong with the link (pun intended). MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Anyway here's an excerpt:

A 4-bar suspension _IS_ a 4-bar linkage. Absolutely. And, the fact that a 4-bar suspension _IS_ a 4-bar linkage has a lot to do with why a 4-bar suspension performs the way it does. However, and here is the key point, all 4-bar linkages are _NOT_ 4-bar suspensions. That's one of the main points I was trying to make in my previous posts. To qualify as a 4-bar suspension, a 4-bar linkage has to satisfy at least the following two criteria: 1) The axle must be mounted to the "coupler", and 2) there must be 4 "follower" links connecting the "coupler" to the "ground". These last 2 points might not make sense at this point if you are not familiar with the 4-bar linkage terms "coupler", "follower", and "ground". However, I will define these term below, and if you read this post twice, it will make sense the second time through. If either of these two criteria are not satisfied, then your 4-bar linkage is _NOT_ a 4-bar suspension.

One of the characteristics of a 4-bar linkage, is that one of the links can be made to follow a complex curve (i.e. not a simple circular arc). The link that follows the complex curve is known as the "coupler", and is link #3 in the diagram below. The 2 links connected to the "coupler" are known as "followers" (there are several other terms used for these links as well, but to keep this discussion simple, I will only use the term "follower" here) These are links #2 and #4 in the diagram below. The other link (connect to the other end of the 2 "followers") is known as the "ground" (#1 in the diagram below). On a bicycle such as a Turner XCE or a Kona Dawg, the seat tube is the "ground" (#1 in the diagram), the chainstay(s) is the lower "follower" (#4 in the diagram), the seatstay is the "coupler" (#3 in the diagram), and the shock link(s) is the upper "follower" (#2 in the diagram).

 

[WheelieMan]

You're right, VPP's are combinations, but they really don't affect the rate quite as much as they're cracked up to...99% of what you read about what they do for suspension is just marketing BS.....Most of the ones on the market have nearly linear rates..... or at least they are so linear that I'd rather have an orange or a morewood(single pivot) to save some weight and avoid all those useless pivots which don't do much for the suspension in terms of progressivity, and they don't really do all that much for pedalling or braking in terms of effeciency and isolation respectively...

The S curve of the axle is ridiculous hype(santa cruz, M3)....I spoke to a certain sus. guru who actually mapped the axle path and the "sweet spot" (where the axle path switches from going up and forwards to up and backwards) where you supposedly should have "optimum efficiency" is all within a 2-3mm travel range along the axle path....It would be nearly impossible to set up the correct valving, spring rate, and sag so that when you're sprinting, it would be in that range along the axle path...it's just totally unrealistic hype.....

So...VPP is an axle path modifier that attempts to accomplish some sort of rate modifications, but fails miserably, and along with that you have too many moving parts, unnessecary floating brake arms, etc.....

hope this clears things up a bit, but I typed all fast and it probably doesn't read too well

EDIT: just read buildyuorowns post.....all bikes do have some sort of rate modification....when i say rate modifier, i'm talking about something like a Turner DHR, or a Giant, PDC, something with a bell crank linkage that gives and extreme increase of progressivity.....when I say axle path modifier I mean an M1 or a V10, or a Demo 8/9....something that does have some rate modification, but that wasn't the intent of the design/pivot placement....they do modify the rate, but not enough to notice on the trail

I'm slightly confused about the terminology you are using. If something is "modified" doesn't that mean it has been tuned from a previous state to what it is now? I understand what you mean, but I don't think it describes the designs very well.

Every bike has some sort of "rate modification", so you can't say that it wasn't the intent of certain designs to have a modified rate.

 

[OGRipper]

More:

Now, what about the Kona. Is it a 4-bar? Well, I hope by now that it is becoming clear that it's not. But, I will continue anyway. Is the axle mounted to the "coupler"? No, it's not. So then, it's not a 4-bar suspension (but again, it _IS_ still a 4-bar linkage). Well, if it's not a 4-bar suspension, then what is it? Again, we can look to the automotive industry for an answer. This type of suspension (where the axle is mounted to the lower "follower" link) is very common, and is well defined. It's known by various names such as trailing arm suspension or commonly in drag racing as a ladder bar suspension. The diagram below shows a ladder bar suspension. You can clearly see that the axle is mounted to the lower "followers", not to the coupler. This is functionally equivalent to the Kona style bicycle suspension (commonly and erroneously referred to as a 4-bar). It really should be called a trailing arm suspension, or a ladder bar suspension. But, it _ABSOLUTELY_ is not a 4-bar suspension.


IS MY BIKE A 4-BAR?

To determine if a bike is a 4-bar, you need to determine if the axle is mounted on the "coupler" and that it has 4 "follower" links connecting the "coupler" to "ground". Well, the following bikes are all 4-bars: Horst links bikes like those from Turner, Intense, and Titus as are the ICT bikes from Ellsworth. VPP bikes like the Santa Cruz Blur and Intense Spider are also 4-bars (interestingly enough, the original Outland VPP is not). Other 4-bar bikes include the Iron Horse Hollowpoint, Schwinn Rocket 88, Schwinn 4 Banger and 6 Banger, some Jamis Dakar models, and the Marin Quad. I'm sure there are others that I have missed as well. Lets look at a few of these.

Horst Link/ICT

On these bikes, the main frame is the "ground", the 2 chainstays are the lower "followers", the seatstay assembly is the "coupler", and the shock links are the upper "followers". So, the axle is mounted in the "coupler", and we have 4 "follower" links (the two chainstays and the two shock links) connecting the "coupler" to the "ground". Yep, 4-bar.

Santa Cruz and Intense VPP

One these bikes, the main frame is the "ground", the entire rear triangle (i.e. the seatstay/chainstay assembly) is the "coupler", and there are 4 small "follower" links connecting the rear triangle to the main frame. So, the axle is mounted in the "coupler" and we have 4 "follower" links connecting the "coupler" to "ground". Yep, 4-bar.

Schwinn Rocket 88

Similar to the VPP, the main frame is the "ground", the entire rear triangle is the "coupler", and there are 4 small "follower" links connecting the rear triangle to the main frame. So, the axle is mounted in the "coupler" and we have 4 "follower" links connecting the "coupler" to "ground". Yep, 4-bar.

Iron Horse Hollowpoint

Again, similar to the Rocket 88 and VPP, the main frame is the "ground", the entire rear triangle is the "coupler", and there are 4 small "follower" links connecting the rear triangle to the main frame. So, the axle is mounted in the "coupler" and we have 4 "follower" links connecting the "coupler" to "ground". Yep, 4-bar.

Marin Quad

The main frame is the "ground", the entire rear triangle is the "coupler", and there are 4 small "follower" links connecting the rear triangle to the main frame. So, the axle is mounted in the "coupler" and we have 4 "follower" links connecting the "coupler" to "ground". Yep, 4-bar.

Kona Dawg

The main frame is the "ground", the 2 chainstays are the lower "followers", the seatstay assembly is the "coupler", and the shock links are the upper "followers". Uh Oh…, the axle is _NOT_ mounted in the "coupler". Instead, it's mounted directly to the lower 2 "followers". Nope, not a 4-bar. In fact, it's a trailing arm/ladder bar.

 

[Kornphlake]

...

I think the guy from MTBR is playing word games to justify specialized's marketing, as far as I know there is no differentiation between a 4 bar suspension and a 4 bar linkage. In fact I think he may have just invented the idea of a 4 bar suspension. Then again I may be wrong, he seems to throw around a lot of technical sounding terms like "coupler" and "follower."

The best way to differentiate between a kona and a specialized is to use the term Horst Link. The term Horst Link leaves little ambiguity as to what the suspension does.

I think it's interesting in all these ramblings about 4 bars and brake jack and what not nobody ever looks at the lawill linkage, it's essentially the same as a horst link but with a very long shock linkage and a very short seatstay. We all know that the first gen Lawill Yeti's without the floater brake jacked like mad, even worse than single pivots... My point being, there's a lot more to suspension dynamics than can be accounted for with one simple drawing or a few paragraphs about where pivots are.

 

[OGRipper]

Hmm, maybe but I really don't know. In other parts of his post he keep referring to auto suspension systems and more general engineering principles. It sounds like he knows what he's talking about but I really have no idea.

As for the lawill design, to use this guys terminology, the axle is mounted on a coupler so he would probably agree it's 4-bar. Uh, suspension. And linkage. Wheeee this is fun!!!

 

[jackalope]

Btw, the last couple pages have turned out to be a very interesting read for me, and hopefully cleared a few things up in my muddled little brain...

That said, all this 4 bar / single piv talk is pretty trivial when you understand that the Klein Mantra and Voodoo URTs were the best suspensions ever created...



Actually, on a curious side note, how would you catagorize a Trek Fuel type set up where supposedly the chain stays flex enough to act like a pivot (but w/o the additional weight)?

 

[buildyourown]

Actually, on a curious side note, how would you catagorize a Trek Fuel type set up where supposedly the chain stays flex enough to act like a pivot (but w/o the additional weight)?

This is a whole 'nother can...

Several years before the Fuel came out, we made a very similar bike out of Ti. It was called the KGB and it was rediculously expensive. I believe the fuel has a BB pivot and no chainstay pivot. It's not that the carbon stays really flex that much, it's that the shape of the rocker link means you really don't need a CS pivot. There is some movement, but not a lot.

Our bike had 60mm of travle and no BB pivot. It was freaky, but it worked.

 

[OGRipper]

That said, all this 4 bar / single piv talk is pretty trivial when you understand that the Klein Mantra and Voodoo URTs were the best suspensions ever created...

Actually, on a curious side note, how would you catagorize a Trek Fuel type set up where supposedly the chain stays flex enough to act like a pivot (but w/o the additional weight)?

Don't forget the Trek Y-bike or Ibis Szazbo. neaky:

As for the Fuel, good question. Since there is no pivot back there, strictly speaking it's not a 4-bar linkage is it? But it flexes like a pivot, so I guess it depends how you look at. Heh, if the flex is coming from the chainstay (like a cannondale), arguably the axle is mounted on the "coupler" and will move like a horst link, so you could say it's 4-bar suspension. On the other hand if the flex is coming from the seatstay, the axle will move more like a Kona, so it's not.

Let's throw Trek a bone and say it's in a class by itself.

 

[Ian Collins]

I'm slightly confused about the terminology you are using. If something is "modified" doesn't that mean it has been tuned from a previous state to what it is now? I understand what you mean, but I don't think it describes the designs very well.

Every bike has some sort of "rate modification", so you can't say that it wasn't the intent of certain designs to have a modified rate.

acutally that is the intent of certain designs....bikes that you'd categorize as a axle path modifier rather than a rate modifier are bikes that have such a small amount of rate modification that it's not even worth noting....

....I see where you're confused...heres the thing.....bikes with bell crank linkages(DHR, Giant, Bklyn Link) only have the linkage for one reason....that is to modify the rate so the suspension has a progressive feel....bikes with linkages other than that (m1,demo,v10) have linkages there to accomplish different tasks(pedalling and braking)....

i'll give a rough example of how a rate modifying linkage works....

9" travel bike, 3" stroke shock:

first three inches of axle travel the damper only moves .5"...therefore the rear swingarm has only moved 1/6th of the SHOCK travel in 3"

second three inches of travel the damper moves 1" of travel, therefore the rear swingarm has to move more spring and more oil to move the same amount...effectively increasing the damping, and spring rate(moves 1/3rd of the shock travel in 3")

third three inches of travel the damper has to move 1.5"...so now it moves 1/2 of the shock travel...when it has to move more oil and spring in the same relative amount of axle travel the bike gets a very progressive feel....you can see how speed sensitive damping really takes advantage of this setup for an optimum feel, but you can also see how a position sensitive damper won't perform as well with this setup....

ok, now on the other hand with a linear bike you might have this setup:

first 3" moves .95"
second 3" moves 1.0"
third 3" moves 1.05"

you can see how this really wouldn't affect the progression of a bike....the only way to accomplish such extreme progression is through a bell crank style linkage, NOT VPP, horst link, etc....

the problem with relying on sinlge pivots and axle path modifiers to use a position sensitive damper is that nothing increases spring rate as a bike moves through the travel...sure damping increases due to position sensitivity, but you're getting tons of damping without the correct spring rate to support it, and therefore the bike will feel harsh and over damped...if you want to test this, ride a turner with an avalanche down gnarly stuff, or some big drops, then ride a linear bike like an orange with a manitou SPV(pos. sensitive) down the same stuff...the turner will track better, feel less harsh, and you'll have far more traction...

it's really hard to describe this stuff over the internet...god damn!!...so anyways, you're right everything does have rate modification, but only certain bikes have enough of it to be deemed rate modifiers

 

[Orvan]

This thread makes me just wanna enjoy riding more.

 

[Ian Collins]

This thread makes me just wanna enjoy riding more.

me too....i'm riding tomorrow at ted williams if you're gonna be in the area....

 

[Transcend]

this thread is stupid

 

[OGRipper]

this thread is stupid

Not quite as stupid as your post, but thanks for playing!!

 

[Orvan]

me too....i'm riding tomorrow at ted williams if you're gonna be in the area....

My shoulder still smells of ben-gay. So I'm staying away from hard riding for a bit.

Hey, I'm hitting some spots in southeast SD later tomorrow -5-ish. PM me if you want to see some new sights in SD. I can show you two DH spots and 2 DJ spots in one valley..

lovebunny is a confused tech geek

 

[Transcend]

Not quite as stupid as your post, but thanks for playing!!

Right so far the foes mono isn't a single pivot, but the DW link sunday is. Ok, I'll take your word for it.

caution: morons at work.

 

[Ian Collins]

Right so far the foes mono isn't a single pivot, but the DW link sunday is. Ok, I'll take your word for it.

caution: morons at work.

I dont' think anyone agreed on either of those things, and you certainly haven't contributed anything useful to the post(probably because you can't)....i'm sure some people are getting something out of it, so what's the harm...? if you don't like it don't read it...simple as that.....

at least the thread is on topic, it's about bikes and it's not a shameless plug of your ****ty slow ass site....chill out man

 

[Transcend]

(probably because you can't)

it's not a shameless plug of your ****ty slow ass site.

Ha, the jealousy is makin you green man, you should probably go take a pill.

I love guys like you who really don't have a sweet clue and just like to shoot their mouths off. Keep it up, it keep sme amused.

 

[Ian Collins]

Ha, the jealousy is makin you green man, you should probably go take a pill.

I love guys like you who really don't have a sweet clue and just like to shoot their mouths off. Keep it up, it keep sme amused.

HAHAHAH....jealousy....i'm jealous of someone who spends hours updating a sight that is always late, always slow, and has jack **** for info on it without making a dime....you might as well volunteer at a soup kitchen, you'd do more for society, and you'd get some free soup out of the deal

....if i dont' have a clue, then shoot me down....it's funny how guys like you chime in about the lamest stuff, but never say anything useful.....

 

[Transcend]

HAHAHAH....jealousy....i'm jealous of someone who spends hours updating a sight that is always late, always slow, and has jack **** for info on it without making a dime....you might as well volunteer at a soup kitchen, you'd do more for society, and you'd get some free soup out of the deal

....if i dont' have a clue, then shoot me down....it's funny how guys like you chime in about the lamest stuff, but never say anything useful.....

Sure first with results, first witha ll race news, industry known (and used) and definetly not slow. Yup, you hit it right on the head.

As for making money off of it...if only you knew. You keep believing that i spend my time not making any money. That said, the site has been around since you were 13 - so you should probably shut your pie hole until you have an idea about what is going on. You are looking stupider by the minute. I fyou don't like it, don't go. I won't miss you among the other 12 000 regular users.

You are nothing but another wanna be - fantastic. Grow up.