[erikkellison]

So why do people pay so much more for an Orange 222/223/224 or a Morewood Izumu DH than they did for a Bullit?
Is 1.5" extra rear travel, added stiffness and a wider rear hub worth THAT MUCH EXTRA??
I'm surprised that there are actually people out there that buy these bikes when they can get linkage-actuated bikes for the same price or less. I would think that proper shock compression and a good rear wheel path are more important than a stiff rear end, and that's not even commenting on the fact that there are linkage bikes that are even stiffer out there.
I just don't get it... seems like all the people who ride those frames either know someone who's sponsored and had envy, got a great deal, are sponsored themselves or just don't know any better, though the last is rare.
Comments?

 

[ghettogt76]

I agree with you completely.

 

[A.P]

oh god.

 

[skinny mike]

just don't know any better, though the last is rare.

then i guess you are in the minority.

 

[Bicyclist]

oh god.

Another "all single pivots are bullits, damn it" thread.

 

[Transcend]

Awesome.

 

[mfzbike]

lets uh.....single pivots are mad lite, which makes them super flickable....shock technology these days.....doesn't matter anymore what design you ride....
you pay lots of money for orange and morewood cuz you get a bad ass piece of equipment....those thing are so rad in person.

 

[frznnomad]

lol how many times have we coverd this subject lol.

so if bullits and oranges,izumi,and judges are all the same then my sgs fsr linkage must be the same as a demo 8 and 9 right.

 

[julianBC]

I ride an orange to seem pretentious.


But seriously, how many of them have you ridden? I have ridden MANY single pivots and I don't think any of them really felt the same. I had the oppurtunity to ride a 223 around a parking lot and it felt much different than my 222 even. On these bikes even a different shock can alter the feel. Subtle changes make all the difference.

 

[bent^biker]

how bout eveybody just rides hardtail. Then we don't need to argue about this

 

[frznnomad]

lol you havent ridding to many hardtails have you ridden cause even those seem to feel different between companies due to a little thing called geometry.

 

[TheMontashu]

I agree that they are over priced and over rated. There is something to be said for light, stiff, and simple. As far as I am concerned though simple should mean less expensive. I don't get peoples hard ons for thease bikes, they are nice and I would rock a moorwood if it was cheeper. But they are again way over priced compared to lincage bike that have better axle paths, less brake feedback, and pedal better.

 

[erikkellison]

I also forgot to write in my original post that I knew in advance that there were going to be elitiest that would turn their noses up at my query and simply scoff instead of actually providing an answer. I knew Transcend would be one of them, it was just a matter of time. Funny. Though he's in a good camp - he gets to ride one of these overpriced, undertechnologized bikes for free. He's kinda duty bound to support them, so I guess I can't fault him much
I know shocks make a difference, but that's the case with any bike. I'm asking why people pay so much more for a stiffer rear and +20% travel.
And I wouldn't liken an SGS to a Demo because they are visibly different, with different length bars and differently located pivots. Izumu's and 224's have a design that is very similar to a Bullit; pivot location, swingarm design and shock mounting are all quite similar.

I don't want noses turned up and scoffs, I want concrete answers as to why these bikes go for so much more, and I expect unfortunately that they won't come from those riding Izumu's and 224's. I would like to be surprised though...
Sorry if I missed a thread on this topic already.

 

[bent^biker]

lol you havent ridding to many hardtails have you ridden cause even those seem to feel different between companies due to a little thing called geometry.

i ride nothing but hardtails but w/e, its cool

 

[PoserNewbie]

Hmmm....the mods should just delete this thread before it gets out of hand. Having said that, I thought the Morewood is priced reasonably well at $2200 compared to the $2449 for the V10 and $2495 for the DHR. The 224 is up there probably because of FX rate (I assume the 224 is priced reasonably cheap in the UK?). Why dont people just buy a bullit? There's this thing called geometry that makes a bike ride better than the other and that is what people are paying for. There is just no way you could make the bullit to have similar geometry to the 224.

 

[Bicyclist]

It's a matter of geometry and construction. Look at what people are willing top pay for other boutique bikes. If a single pivot is lighter and more simple, why not charge a similar price? Half of the price is due to construction, half's due to market.

The hype is due to the geometry and simplicity.

 

[erikkellison]

I am surprised that it is impossible to make a Bullit have geometry similar to that of a 224.
I do understand that people are willing to pay for boutique bikes though, and I think this trickles down with the 224's. People like having something rare, even if it's not functionally better. Same goes with cars. Jaguar's are in the shop more than Civic's 10fold (unless you count stupid ricers).
Thanks for the legit answers yo.

 

[Bicyclist]

Well people are always clamoring for the latest and greatest, so I guess that's why they sell. Although I'd LOVE to ride one I can't see spending the money on one. Not that they're inferior single pivots, but that they're expensive. And I'm cheap.

 

[ChrisRobin]

you pay lots of money for orange and morewood cuz you get a bad ass piece of equipment....those thing are so rad in person.

Thanks for your ****ing great insight on this topic!

 

[Bicyclist]

Thanks for your ****ing great insight on this topic!

But dude, it's like totally rad and everything's like so way chill.

 

[binary visions]

You seriously have no idea why one bike costs more than another bike? No clue?

Do you go into a BMW dealership and ask the guy behind the counter to explain why they go for so much more than a Kia, since, you know, it's the same type of engine technology?

You pay for build quality. You pay for strength. You pay for a light frame that will hold up under race conditions. You pay for options like different shock and floater mounts. You pay for that 150mm rear end. You pay for that stiffness.

How much is that worth to you? Maybe it's not worth anything. But maybe it's worth three seconds on your race time when your rear end doesn't flex on that hard corner. Maybe it's worth a week of races when, on your seven hundredth abusive time through a rock garden, the frame stays together and doesn't develop a hairline crack.

Seriously, this is a silly question. There's more to bikes than the number of pivots or the axle path.

 

[Quamen]

Single Pivots are not an inferior design there just not for everyone but the same gose for FSR'S etc I know lots of people that hate FSr's and will only ride Single Pivots, If you go to any DH track in the UK
Orange 22* will outnumber FSR's 3to1,I dont know about morewood but the reason Oranges are expensive over in the US is because there hand built in England and the £ is stronger than the $
They are much cheaper over hear in the UK

 

[lux]

You seriously have no idea why one bike costs more than another bike? No clue?

Do you go into a BMW dealership and ask the guy behind the counter to explain why they go for so much more than a Kia, since, you know, it's the same type of engine technology?

You pay for build quality. You pay for strength. You pay for a light frame that will hold up under race conditions. You pay for options like different shock and floater mounts. You pay for that 150mm rear end. You pay for that stiffness.

How much is that worth to you? Maybe it's not worth anything. But maybe it's worth three seconds on your race time when your rear end doesn't flex on that hard corner. Maybe it's worth a week of races when, on your seven hundredth abusive time through a rock garden, the frame stays together and doesn't develop a hairline crack.

Seriously, this is a silly question. There's more to bikes than the number of pivots or the axle path.

Ahh. The sweet sound of the voice of reason.

 

[Tom Church]

Single Piviots just feel better to me. Fewer bolts to maintain and tighten and with the shock technology out there you can get good pedaling from them as well. And linkage bikes are just as expensive if not more sometimes...

Tom

 

[BKQuill]

Ahh. The sweet sound of the voice of reason.

I call foul, we're adding 5 seconds to your time!!!!!

There is no reasoning allowed on the internet, muchless reasoning that actually makes sense.

 

[binary visions]

There is no reasoning allowed on the internet, muchless reasoning that actually makes sense.

Ahem. Sorry. What I meant to say was,







SINGAL PIVOTS ARE TEH SUX0R@#%!^!!11!one!! AVALANCHE RULEZ!!!

 

[no skid marks]

You also forgot to mention that you pay for the huge marketing and sponsorship budget that makes a possible inferior design/bike make you look good to the magazine reading groms.Effectivelly giving you buyer satisfaction without actually performing all that well.

 

[binary visions]

You also forgot to mention that you pay for the huge marketing and sponsorship budget that makes a possible inferior design/bike make you look good to the magazine reading groms.Effectivelly giving you buyer satisfaction without actually performing all that well.

Oh, yeah, I forgot that only companies that market single pivots do that.

Not like, say, Specialized, who keeps a low profile, and never makes outrageous claims about their suspension designs.

 

[no skid marks]

I was talking in regard to your coment which did not address that it was to do with single pivots(although obviously in this thred)but to do with what you pay for in an expensive bike.

 

[binary visions]

I was talking in regard to your coment which did not address that it was to do with single pivots(although obviously in this thred)but to do with what you pay for in an expensive bike.

So... What you're saying is that marketing plays a roll in people's perceived value of a bike.

Right.

And 8" disc rotors stop you faster than 6" rotors.

But neither point has much of a bearing on this thread, since marketing is done by companies that sell single pivots and companies that sell multi-pivots. Marketing plays a roll everywhere, but there are real, undeniable reasons why some bikes cost more than others, and it has nothing to do with the number of pivots.

 

[Transcend]

So... What you're saying is that marketing plays a roll in people's perceived value of a bike.

Right.

And 8" disc rotors stop you faster than 6" rotors.

But neither point has much of a bearing on this thread, since marketing is done by companies that sell single pivots and companies that sell multi-pivots. Marketing plays a roll everywhere, but there are real, undeniable reasons why some bikes cost more than others, and it has nothing to do with the number of pivots.

Or what car you buy, or what flavoured pop tarts you buy.

 

[Kornphlake]

And I wouldn't liken an SGS to a Demo because they are visibly different, with different length bars and differently located pivots. Izumu's and 224's have a design that is very similar to a Bullit; pivot location, swingarm design and shock mounting are all quite similar.

You need to get your vision checked, an Orange 224 is about as visually different from a Bullit as a SGS is different than a a Demo. If you can't see the differances just by looking take a peek at the frame's specs, the head angle, seat angle top tube lenght, standover height, bottom bracket height... a quarter inch or half a degree here or there can be the differance between a pig with wheels and a bike that feels fast, even in the parking lot.

I'm not really in love with any one suspension design but your just making a fool of your self to believe that pivot location and geometry only makes a differance on a linkage driven suspension. You don't believe that a Stinky is better than a Bullit because it's a 4-bar do you? Pivot location in both the horizontal and vertical directions play a huge part on how well a single pivot will ride, as does chainstay length and how the shock attaches to the swingarm. There's just as much tuning a designer has to do with a singlepivot as there is with a horst link, it's not like you can just chop a hardtail apart and throw in a single pivot and shock and expect it to ride as well as a Bullit, much less a Morewood or Orange.

 

[stinky6]

What does adding a swing link do for a single pivot? I think swing link is the right term, like on a Yeti ASX, or the Judge. I've heard it adds stiffness and can allow the shock to be much more progressive. I believe the stiffness part, but what about the shock and anything else?

 

[dhbuilder]

lets uh.....single pivots are mad lite, which makes them super flickable....shock technology these days.....doesn't matter anymore what design you ride....
you pay lots of money for orange and morewood cuz you get a bad ass piece of equipment....those thing are so rad in person.

right on brother.
what are all these people jealous(or afraid) of ?

 

[Tom Church]

What does adding a swing link do for a single pivot? I think swing link is the right term, like on a Yeti ASX, or the Judge. I've heard it adds stiffness and can allow the shock to be much more progressive. I believe the stiffness part, but what about the shock and anything else?

It adds alot of stiffness and changed the leverage on the shock at different points in the travel. The judge has 3 distinct stages. I rode one around some small trails and a parking lot and you can really feel them. You sit on it and it sinks about 1/3 in then you have another 1/3 for the active suspension and when you go into the final 1/3 on a big hit or something the bike feels bottomless...strange feeling but it does work.

Tom

 

[erikkellison]

You pay for build quality. You pay for strength. You pay for a light frame that will hold up under race conditions. You pay for options like different shock and floater mounts. You pay for that 150mm rear end. You pay for that stiffness.

How much is that worth to you? Maybe it's not worth anything. But maybe it's worth three seconds on your race time when your rear end doesn't flex on that hard corner. Maybe it's worth a week of races when, on your seven hundredth abusive time through a rock garden, the frame stays together and doesn't develop a hairline crack.

You had a good explanation that I really appreciated until...

Seriously, this is a silly question.

Now you're just insulting. Lame form.
You're right, those things aren't worth more than $1000 extra to me, just for a frame. But if you're sponsored, can get a deal, or just have spare money, they may be worth it to you. I guess I'm just coming from a "best bang for your buck" point of view. I wouldn't be so hasty as to suggest that the Bullit is on par with a 224 or a Izumu, but my original point wasn't that. It was that they aren't worth that much extra money, at least to me, and I wanted to know to whom they were, and why.

You need to get your vision checked, an Orange 224 is about as visually different from a Bullit as a SGS is different than a a Demo. If you can't see the differances just by looking take a peek at the frame's specs, the head angle, seat angle top tube lenght, standover height, bottom bracket height... a quarter inch or half a degree here or there can be the differance between a pig with wheels and a bike that feels fast, even in the parking lot.

I'm not really in love with any one suspension design but your just making a fool of your self to believe that pivot location and geometry only makes a differance on a linkage driven suspension.

Never said that they only make a difference on linkages...
And I didn't say that they don't make a difference single pivots either, I was saying that they're similar. The only major difference I see is that the head angle is about 4 degrees different, also resulting in a longer wheelbase. If that's good for racing, then Santa Cruz ought to release a Bullit R version that has a head tube welded at 64 degrees, giving it the same measurements as the 224.

I am still appreciating the good responses though. I actually want my eyes opened, so keep them coming, but keep the elitist scoffing to a minimum please. It only reinforces my preconceived belief that there aren't enough concrete reasons to pay more for these frames.

 

[binary visions]

Now you're just insulting. Lame form.

Okay, so I didn't need that last comment, but before you judge me too harshly, keep in mind the number of people who simply post before thinking rather than actually looking for information.

You're right, those things aren't worth more than $1000 extra to me, just for a frame. <snip> I guess I'm just coming from a "best bang for your buck" point of view. <snip> It was that they aren't worth that much extra money, at least to me, and I wanted to know to whom they were, and why.

The top quality in any niche isn't even remotely good from a bang-for-the-buck perspective. That goes for cars, audio, computers, skiis... anything. Getting the best is a matter of an exponential increase in price snaring you an incremental increase in performance.

keep the elitist scoffing to a minimum please. It only reinforces my preconceived belief that there aren't enough concrete reasons to pay more for these frames.

Well, that's personal prejudice. Elitest scoffing doesn't make you right, it just means that some people think it's too obvious to take the time to explain.

 

[Jeremy R]

The reason you are not getting real answers is because they are simply not worth typing.
If you can look at a Bullit and then look at the Morewood and Orange and cannot see the obvious differences with your own eyeballs, then what is typing a few words gonna do?
If you can't see the DH race geometry on the Morewood and the Orange, and the craftmanship and the attention to detail etc....
If you can't see all that then grab yourself up a root beer bullit and shred the gnarcore. They are indeed the ROXORS!!

 

[Kornphlake]

Never said that they only make a difference on linkages...
And I didn't say that they don't make a difference single pivots either, I was saying that they're similar. The only major difference I see is that the head angle is about 4 degrees different, also resulting in a longer wheelbase. If that's good for racing, then Santa Cruz ought to release a Bullit R version that has a head tube welded at 64 degrees, giving it the same measurements as the 224.

There may only be one major difference that you see (Headangle) but there are plenty of subtle differences that either you are too ignorant to see or you simply can't see from the outward observation. A Bullit built with a 64 degree headangle will never be a 224, the butting on the tubes, the cross section of the dropouts, the stiffness of the frame surrounding the main pivot, the pivot axle geometry, there are a number of subtle differences that will make an Orange feel different than a Bullit. I'm not going to judge the worth of those differences but obviously there are people who feel that the difference is worth the cost. Don't kid yourself into believing that only sponsored riders and elitest posers are the only ones who ride expensive bikes, there are actually informed and intelligent riders who see the benefit of a single pivot like the Foes DHS and feel like it's worth the extra money to get them on the podium, the same is just as true with any linkage bike.

 

[BKQuill]

A single pivot is simple and keeps me from getting confused!