What do you guys think from a DH perspective. If they banned all bikes, XC bikes and everything, and maybe even sightseers do you think there would be enought protest to reopen it?
Snow Summit Theory?
- Thread starter merrrrjig
- Start date
Naw... XC'ers can ride anywhere, sightseers are mostly families that probably will only hit SS once and never again... I think DH'ers were the only ones who really need SS.
Come to the Mt. Wilson shuttle, I will be disseminating some info that I am just about done preparing. For those who were kind enough to send me their e-mail addresses or have PMed me, I am just about done with what I think you could call my "proposal" to the DH/FR community in So Cal. I will be e-mailing you all very soon.merrrrjig said:
But in answer to your question... No, I do not think that if they closed their summer operations completely, and everyone (hikers, bikers, family piknikers) protested, that you would convince them to open. Even if you did, to what end? So that we can have 3 legal dusty, unmaintained mediocre trails? So that we can go on making and riding illegal trails that will not only get SS closed again, but may very well get ALL bikes in the Big Bear area restricted to fire roads?
I feel that the problems and issues facing us are much bigger than the closing of a venue. It is about the publics perception of our sport and those of us who practice it. It is about educating young riders so that they don't hurt themselves, and so that they don't hurt the sport (Yes, there are some older riders that need to be educated and spanked as well). It is about keeping our sport alive. (It's not too hard to close trails to us. And if things keep up we really will be limited to fire roads).
Our sport is very young and we are going through some growing pains right now. And we are being watched... Insurance companies are watching us, the ski resorts are watching us. And you can be darn sure that NORBA, USA Cycling, and TBB are watching us as they have a financial interest in our sport. We have a very large rider base here in So Cal, and what we do can effect not only the overall sport and industry of mountain biking, but the DH/FR arena and the racing world as well. Or we can be left out all together and sit on the sidelines and watch. It depends on how we handle ourselves. Either way though, we need to take strong, positive, well planned, and patient action.
OK, I am rambling a bit now I think, and since I am not quite ready to unleash the master plan on the world I will stop now. I will have info at the Mt. Wilson shuttle and at the Skyline V.2 shuttle. For those who can't make it, I can e-mail you, and there will be a website up after the Wilson shuttle.
Feel free to PM or e-mail me with thought's and ideas. Even if it's just to tell me that you think my plan sucks.
Nice post, Ciaran.
Merrijig, I think he's right. I bet Big Bear's insurance to carry sight see'ers is a small fraction of what it would be to carry any type of cyclist or skier. Simply much less risk. And I bet that ticket revenue is tiny compared to skiers.
And in all the info that came out, it became very clear that Dhers were but a small fraction of their business as compared to the ski business.
So that business was already marginal, and the lawsuits made it a "no brainer" to pull the plug.
Merrijig, I think he's right. I bet Big Bear's insurance to carry sight see'ers is a small fraction of what it would be to carry any type of cyclist or skier. Simply much less risk. And I bet that ticket revenue is tiny compared to skiers.
And in all the info that came out, it became very clear that Dhers were but a small fraction of their business as compared to the ski business.
So that business was already marginal, and the lawsuits made it a "no brainer" to pull the plug.
Do you guys think that next year they wont have anything? That what I expect they do, either they have DH or nothing at all, I dont think they will get enough business
Yeah, I mean, the expense of running the lift for like, 30 people a day is not going to cut it... I think they'll figure they'll just cut out the whole summer part and be done with it.
Just from someone who has help run a bike park... No way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Summer programs make very little or no money. Not to mention it cuts into alot of OTHER maintenance done during summer. Lift maintenance and inspections are a bitch to get complete in time for the next winter. Throw in a delay such as a chair getting used all summer long and it makes it nearly impossible. Resorts such as N* only do it because someone in upper management likes the summer program because they ride a bike too. If that guy were to go... I would sure be worried. The SS thing is gone and your are just going to have to deal. When Squaw Valley dumped it's bike park not even Intrawest (part owner of Squaw, Mammoth and Whister) could change their mind. And those guy know how good a bike park can be. They set the High-mark!!!
Summer programs make very little or no money. Not to mention it cuts into alot of OTHER maintenance done during summer. Lift maintenance and inspections are a bitch to get complete in time for the next winter. Throw in a delay such as a chair getting used all summer long and it makes it nearly impossible. Resorts such as N* only do it because someone in upper management likes the summer program because they ride a bike too. If that guy were to go... I would sure be worried. The SS thing is gone and your are just going to have to deal. When Squaw Valley dumped it's bike park not even Intrawest (part owner of Squaw, Mammoth and Whister) could change their mind. And those guy know how good a bike park can be. They set the High-mark!!!
From my past encounters........ Hell Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!merrrrjig said:
Yup. dhtahoe has good info.dhtahoe said:
I have done some research and I now know how much it can cost to run a lift and how difficult it can be for a resort to stay open in the summer. (Mucho $$$) I have found some good stuff either on the web or from resorts themselves.
Though, where I disagree with dhtahoe is that I feel that if done correctly, we can get a lift to open to us. It won't be this year or next year and at first it may be very limited access, but in the end I think that we can get a resort to open to DH on a regular basis. (Fingers crossed!)
Everybody think good thoughts and say a prayer!
I wish they would just reopen it. But we all know it proilly wont be happening. I would think that they wont be making enough money like said before, and prolly shut it all down. Snow Boarding is fun there, but not year-round.
I heard something about there being more to the big bear closure story than is being told. Something about somebody boning somebody they weren't supposed to be boning (I wanna say someone from TBB boning someone from SS's wife or something?) and somebody in a position of power doing something shady about it? Has anybody heard this rumor also? I wish I could remember details or even who told me that story but I just passed it off as bologna. Anyway just thought I'd stir the pot a little.
Good posting, Ciaran.
On a different angle, I'll argue with Merrijg's hypothetical: I don't see Snow Summit closing Chair 1 to all users. Long before bikes were going up the lifts, they ran the lifts for 9-12 weeks in the summer, every year, and it made enough money sense to keep doing it. Even were it only for pedestrians, I think the lifts will continue.
Now, since all the chairs have bike hooks on them, I also expect that they'll still haul my tender, gentle XC bike up for me, too. Easy money for them.
On a different angle, I'll argue with Merrijg's hypothetical: I don't see Snow Summit closing Chair 1 to all users. Long before bikes were going up the lifts, they ran the lifts for 9-12 weeks in the summer, every year, and it made enough money sense to keep doing it. Even were it only for pedestrians, I think the lifts will continue.
Now, since all the chairs have bike hooks on them, I also expect that they'll still haul my tender, gentle XC bike up for me, too. Easy money for them.
merrrrjig said:
I have to wonder if SS will slowly reopen to DH. I mean they didn't really create specific enough regulations. The rule is something like 5% forks and smaller right. Well I can put a 5" fork on my V10. Also how about forks with adjustable travel. I tjust think that the rules will be bent or stretched until it reopens to some extent to DH again.
Either that or they will close it to bikes.
-Ryan
I think you guys are partially missing the point here. Even if SS slowly allows DH bikes on the chairs, or if we can "trick" them with long travel single crowns, and lighter bikes, there is still the MAJOR issue of the illegal trails. The US Forest Service is not going to take lightly the issue of repeatedly using and making illegal trails. And the Forest Service owns the land that SS is on. They operate by permit. The FS can, and will shut down the summer operations if they feel that it is too destructive to the forest.
And how many of you will be or were satisfied with the legal trails that SS offered? Be honest now. Personally I never rode the illegal trails, but that's only because I didn't know where they were. Had I known, I would have rode them. Now that I know about the issues, I won't. But that's after the fact, so I am as guilty as anyone.
And this is all without mentioning the other issues of insurance costs, trail maintenance costs, etc., and of course any weird personal issues of people doing whoever they are not supposed to be doing. (Any info on that? Rumors are unreliable).
Also, does anyone know... Is Snow Summit privately owned or are they publicly traded?
And how many of you will be or were satisfied with the legal trails that SS offered? Be honest now. Personally I never rode the illegal trails, but that's only because I didn't know where they were. Had I known, I would have rode them. Now that I know about the issues, I won't. But that's after the fact, so I am as guilty as anyone.
And this is all without mentioning the other issues of insurance costs, trail maintenance costs, etc., and of course any weird personal issues of people doing whoever they are not supposed to be doing. (Any info on that? Rumors are unreliable).
Also, does anyone know... Is Snow Summit privately owned or are they publicly traded?
I think if people are actually going to try to make their bikes legal to ride illegal trails or even "face" trails in a DH/race manner, we as a group will completely jepordize the possibility of a future re-opening. I also think this has a greater significance on the sport nation wide than just Southern California. I for one will stay away, grumbling and pissed off, until things change which I realize could be never.
Another good post, Don.Ciaran said:
I didn't even touch the illegal trails issue in my other post, not being sure what to say, and wanting to make a clear point about the business side of it.
It will be interesting to see how the No DH thing plays out for Snow Summit with the Forest Service this year. If the illegal building and riding is greatly diminished, then both SS and the FS may decidethey solved the problem.
On the other hand, if building and riding goes on at a level near last year, then maybe SS was never really the main problem.
R
Rabie
Guest
So, like, which trails were actually illegal? Or rather, which trails are legal? Cause I know I'm supposed to be empowered as a consumer and stick it to the man by not going there, but I could still see some value in a day on Darkside, Fallline, and even Pine Knot. Not that they're the best trails in the world, but there's a lot to be said for being able to ride *all day* and being able to escape the summer heat. I promise not to ride in a DH/race manner.Pegboy said:
Rabie, I am going to kill you in the face.
Many good points have been made but there is still one statistic that I have not come across yet. That belongs to the topic of insurance; what are the insurance claims from a summer of DH or biking in general compared to a winter season of skiing / snowboarding. That coming from insurance being one of the main reasons for the closure, I know that there are many other reasons that went along with it but I cant imagine that no one has ever gotten hurt skiing<?> Another one of my complaints that I have heard this year from the members (employees) of TBB is that they are out of DH all together; yet they have been the timers at Sea Otter for one and at least 2 other events that I have been to this year that had DH racing<?!?> And yah they timed the DH runs.
For all my personal rants I still hold dear to my heart the thought that they (TBB, SS, and the FS) will grow up stop crying and realize that cyclists are not the devil no will we destroy the earth.
Peace,
-Adam
For all my personal rants I still hold dear to my heart the thought that they (TBB, SS, and the FS) will grow up stop crying and realize that cyclists are not the devil no will we destroy the earth.
Peace,
-Adam
I do have the numbers but they are not right in front of me. The GF has done the research on this one and I'll have to ask her for the numbers. But as a very general answer off the top of my head: there are lots of skiing accidents, and a few lawsuits but skiing makes enough money cover this, the insurers look at skiing differently than they do us. There's some other stuff too, but I am still researching it all.dma528 said:
I know it's not a great answer but I hope it helps a little.
dma528 said:
As i recall darkside was illegal and also the lower trail that Fall Line dumped you on if you went straight.Rabie said:
So anything good was basically off limits if it was in the trees.
Maybe Orven can clarify.
Darkside actually wasn't illegal to my knowledge...one of the few. They ran XC races through it, so it's gotta be legal if the forest service approved it (and it's off Snow Summit leased property as far as I know).
All offshoots of Fall Line, including what was beneath fall line if you went straight, the other trail that started near where fall line began, the other trail that began near Darkside, and the offshoot(s) of Westridge were illegal. As best I know.
All offshoots of Fall Line, including what was beneath fall line if you went straight, the other trail that started near where fall line began, the other trail that began near Darkside, and the offshoot(s) of Westridge were illegal. As best I know.
I'd PM Pegboy for maps of all the good trails on SS.
Wait... wtf... orvAn? orvEn?
I would still like to know where these "illegal" trails were!?!? I rode SS many times and never heard about them or did I see anyone ever off the main trails. I really think that aspect of that argument is absurd. Does anyone know of the said "illegal" trails?
I never rode them personally, but I saw plenty of riders going off in the "other" direction than I was after getting off the lift. I tried to follow them a few times but they would wait till I lost interest or they would take off really fast looking behind them, presumably to make sure I didn't follow.Bobby Peru said:
If you think the issue of illegal trails is "absurd", as you put it, then you may want to do a bit of research. Unless the Forest Service is lying, it has been publicized that the Forest Service was going to shut SS down if the illegal trail use and building continued. But if you have never ridden the illegal trails, then hopefully (fingers crossed) you are not the kind of rider who seeks out such trails, and that is a good thing. As to whether or not the FS would have actually taken action and how soon is anybody's guess.
That's just what I know. Those who actually rode the trails can likely tell you where they were.
Obviously you didn't read mine!MikeD said:
I'd like to point out an important fact:
Now that SS is closed to DH, many people are taking their DH rigs to popular trails such as Tunnel, San Juan or Noble Canyon. These are not bike trails, they are Multi-use, meaning hikers, equestrians, etc. They are also on Forest Service land just as SS is and are subject to the same closure. Trails with high conflict such as these are reviewed periodically for designation change, i.e, no bikes.
Ripping it up on your local Multi-use trails will only increase the chance of more trail closures. If you wish to maintain or increase access for bikes; act and ride responsibly, respect other trail users, get involved with trail work, join and support your local bike advocacy groups and efforts such as Ciaran's.
The responsible party for change is us, the mtn bike community, no one else is going to do it for us! Get involved.
mark@sdmba.com
Now that SS is closed to DH, many people are taking their DH rigs to popular trails such as Tunnel, San Juan or Noble Canyon. These are not bike trails, they are Multi-use, meaning hikers, equestrians, etc. They are also on Forest Service land just as SS is and are subject to the same closure. Trails with high conflict such as these are reviewed periodically for designation change, i.e, no bikes.
Ripping it up on your local Multi-use trails will only increase the chance of more trail closures. If you wish to maintain or increase access for bikes; act and ride responsibly, respect other trail users, get involved with trail work, join and support your local bike advocacy groups and efforts such as Ciaran's.
The responsible party for change is us, the mtn bike community, no one else is going to do it for us! Get involved.
mark@sdmba.com
I talked to TBB. The illegal trails were maybe 10% of Snow Summit's decision. The real reason was that massive lawsuit by the paralyzed rider went further through the courts than SS was comfortable with. This scared them, they looked at the paltry $$ DH brings in and closed down. Trust me if 200 or 300 DHers showed up every summer day, SS would reopen in a second.
Last summer, I would go mid-week and there'd be maybe 10 DHers. So the real problem is that there are just not enough of us to matter.
RS
Last summer, I would go mid-week and there'd be maybe 10 DHers. So the real problem is that there are just not enough of us to matter.
RS
I don't think it would make a difference. Everytime I have gone to Big Bear, the majority of the people on the lifts were DHers. XC riders and hikers make up a pretty small percentage of lift users...
Man, I feel for your guys. A good friend of mine came to visit from SD last week and was telling me about the lift closures. Sucks, that was alot fun. Being in facilites management, though, I would guess that equipment, utlity, insurance,& personel costs during the summer months simply make it an unproffitable venture for most parks. It would be interesting to see a comparison between the number of skiers and the number of bikers useing the lifts during the peak of both seasons. I'm sure that the skiers far out number cyclists. Hoser, my buddy, said it was due to a fatality at Big Bear, but that was probably just the catalyst to remedy another, larger problem.The sad fact is, ski resorts (like any business) are primarily focused on the bottom line.
If you could get an ear within the company and get some hard numbers, maybe you could come up with a way to make your needs proffitable to the company? Of course, it might meen money out of your pocket at the lift, a shorter season to allow for maintenance, etc...but what's it worth to you? Good luck, I hope you guys get them re-opened.
If you could get an ear within the company and get some hard numbers, maybe you could come up with a way to make your needs proffitable to the company? Of course, it might meen money out of your pocket at the lift, a shorter season to allow for maintenance, etc...but what's it worth to you? Good luck, I hope you guys get them re-opened.