Snowmass Rip Off
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So I am just curious, if you go to snowmass you pay $55 plus $20 for the lifts so $75. 3 Days at plattekill (or most mountains) at $25 a day is $75. So you are going there you have more people timing you and setting up, there are awards and all kinds of stuff and the price is the same... I don't understand where the rip off is.
I have not looked into event parking or any of that stuff but for the rider, I don't see the big deal..
I have not looked into event parking or any of that stuff but for the rider, I don't see the big deal..
Alright, some of this is gonna make IMMEDIATE sense, and some of it, well... the jury is still out on. Let me preface by saying: my biggest point of all is that I don't see ANY POINT in "just complaining" about crap, especially racing. Alot of people put their hard time into putting on events, and all of them want your feedback on how to makes things better. After all, things get changed from the inside out. But whining about stuff without having a solution is not productive. For those of you in or around Colorado 5 or 6 years ago (Fraser) you KNOW how crappy the racing was then, and the leaps and bounds the Colorado racers have made to get things on track. So yes, I am going to get "represent" when someone comes bashing my mountain, my race, and my state. We in Colorado also know that we ain't perfect, and NO ONE is, but we're banding together to try and make a CHANGE in the NMBS, but we're having to start from the ground up and some things will take some time to make better and/or get right.
Word up, my friends. Here's the rant I know ya'll are expecting, cuz I ain't anything if I ain't opinionated!
As I look back through the posts in this thread, I feel that I very much tried to put an OBJECTIVE viewpoint to some of the concerns (complaints, b!tches, whatever you want to call them) presented here, and yet it seems that many people are still focusing on the minutia and grasping at things to be pissed about, rather than getting involved and being part of the solution. Now don't get me wrong, everyone that chimed in and said "I DO put on races!" Let it be known that your rally cries did not fall on deaf ears, I did get that point. And listen to me when I say: THANK YOU. Without the thankless hours that race promoters put in to build courses, put up tape, find sponsors, time events, and on and on and on, my life would SUCK. Again, I can't thank you enough. And on that note:
1.) I like to know how much $$ I'm gonna have to shell out for a race. That's right, I fuggin' HATE hidden costs as well. So, when I visit the Snowmass National website and I see "$10 lift ticket for practice days" right there at the top of the DOWNHILL information page, at least I know. AND I didn't get surprised when I picked up my # plate on August 5th with this charge. Now... what bums me out, and I've said this before, is that someone felt it necessary to single out THIS PARTICULAR RACE for having this policy, when in FACT, Big Bear, Idaho and Durango are all PROBABLY GOING TO CHARGE THE SAME THING. I repeat myself when I pose the question: should I start a thread titled "Schweitzer Rip Off"? All that would accomplish is to help UNDERMINE THE HARD WORK those people have put in to MAKING YOUR LIFE BETTER. For the last time, I am not HAPPY about the extra $20 either, but it is at least decent of the promoter and resort to list the fee well in advance of the event, that way you can make an informed decision about whether or not you wish to attend.
2.) I like to be informed! I like to know when and where I need to be places, what's going on, and when the pros are running or whatever. So far, with the research I've done, Snowmass National and Durango Finals are really doing the diligence to keep us, the racer, in the know about these respective events. I wish www.norbanationals.com could have stepped up to the plate a little more in this regard, but as I said in the beginning of the post, one step at a time. Changes happen slowly and from the inside, with good feedback and hard work.
3.) I like BANG FOR MY BUCK. Yeah, you got it! The most racing, practice, and schwag that I can git for my hard earned dinero. Can I get an AMEN BROTHER?!?!?! But I also know that this is probably best at the local and regional level. Why? There are trade offs to racing Nationally vrs. Locally, and we've all heard the comparisons before. Local races are more "bang for the buck" with more schwag, lift tickets included, friendly atmosphere etc. Fewer racers that are from the immediate area mean the resorts are probably either promoting the races themselves or VERY interested in seeing some of those racers racers return in the winter months. Nationals have MUCH larger attendance, which means more staff, more long hours from the crew, but offer the racer a TON more exposure and competition, a more big-timey feel, Killer expo/demo/service opportunities (Boxxer pissing oil? Take it the the RS trailer and they PROBABLY stick the '05 valving in your '03 Team model 'cuz they can), World Class athletes, and FUGGIN' RACIN'. Yeah I said it, and that's how I feel: if you are travelling for or attending a National, you are there to RACE. At least I am, eh? If you're looking for the "all mountain freeride" or the "schwag bag hookup" then Local racing is DEFINITELY where it's at, without question. No ones arguing. As my account executive says "Stop drillin', Son! You've struck oil!" But at the Nationals, I want to race and watch racing, have plenty of time to practice and have some time in between to eat a sandwich or sleep or something. Looking at the schedule for the Snowmass National, for instance, and I think this is accomplished. Plenty of time for the amateur racer (me, for instance) to practice, eat, race, and STILL WATCH SOME PRO SH!T GO DOWN. I remember Durango a few years back, and none of us lowly Sport riders could see the Pro 4X finals. THAT blew. THIS is much better. Is it perfect? It sure ain't, but between XC, STXC, 4X, DH and Super-D across two genders, 30+ age breakdowns and 5 skill categories ranging from beginner to über-pro, the "bang for your buck" ain't half bad.
4.) Last of all, allow me to clarify my standpoint, that is, my perspective, also generally known as "what planet I am coming from" or "why I think the way I do": I AM NOT A RACE PROMOTER. I am a racer, and a crappy amateur racer at that. I am also a VOLUNTEER at events, donating my time to further the cause and the sport of racing bicycles. I also have, in the past, present and probably future, done graphic and web design (at prices SO LOW I'm ashamed of myself) for people in the bike industry: race teams, races, promoters, and bicycle manufacturers. So the cat's out of the bag, that's the view from where all my rantings have come from. Like it or not, I'm one of you guys: a racer, with a full-time job and rent to pay, that tries to give back to the community whenever he can and sneak in a mid-pack Expert 30-34 DH run whenever he can. So far I'm still off the back... look for me in Snowmass sporting a cowboy hat, bright pink jersey and a Yeti DH9. Just don't punch me, I'm sensitive.
If you're still with me, hopefully you'll click the dang link, already: http://www.snowmassnational.com/volunteer.htm
Peace out.
Word up, my friends. Here's the rant I know ya'll are expecting, cuz I ain't anything if I ain't opinionated!
I spoke with the promoter, and the information I posted earlier is what I was told regarding the Super-D. As for the $600 an hour statement, I addressed that earlier. Please see my previous post, my apologies if I wasn't clear. Send me a PM if you wish to continue that line of conversation, because in my often flawed opinion we are simply SPLITTING HAIRS over the issue of the Super D. It's getting to be a sort of PISSING CONTEST, with pots calling the kettle black and that sort of thing. I'm not sure that you and I will ever see eye to eye on that one, but I hope that if you are attending the Snowmass National that your race is strong and you have a TON of fun!b stevens said:
As I look back through the posts in this thread, I feel that I very much tried to put an OBJECTIVE viewpoint to some of the concerns (complaints, b!tches, whatever you want to call them) presented here, and yet it seems that many people are still focusing on the minutia and grasping at things to be pissed about, rather than getting involved and being part of the solution. Now don't get me wrong, everyone that chimed in and said "I DO put on races!" Let it be known that your rally cries did not fall on deaf ears, I did get that point. And listen to me when I say: THANK YOU. Without the thankless hours that race promoters put in to build courses, put up tape, find sponsors, time events, and on and on and on, my life would SUCK. Again, I can't thank you enough. And on that note:
There IS the presumption that promoters all complain about "losing money" on events, and I apologize if I gave the impression that part of my argument was that promoters rationalize the "hidden costs" of practice day lift tickets and pit space fees because they "lose" money on events. What I was TRYING to demonstrate is that we, as racers, simply cannot know all of the astronomical costs associated with putting on a National (that is, a NORBA National Event, part of the NMBS - events that are SO large and have SO MANY people with their spoons in the pot that it's amazing they even HAPPEN AT ALL), and therefore, yes, racing at a National will PROBABLY be more expensive for the racer. Am I STOKED about this fact? Well, let me tell you, I ain't jumping for joy, that's for sure. But here's what I DO like, and how I think the National Series, Snowmass in particular, is accomplishing what I like. It's my guess that a lot of you guys will have similar feelings:bizutch said:
1.) I like to know how much $$ I'm gonna have to shell out for a race. That's right, I fuggin' HATE hidden costs as well. So, when I visit the Snowmass National website and I see "$10 lift ticket for practice days" right there at the top of the DOWNHILL information page, at least I know. AND I didn't get surprised when I picked up my # plate on August 5th with this charge. Now... what bums me out, and I've said this before, is that someone felt it necessary to single out THIS PARTICULAR RACE for having this policy, when in FACT, Big Bear, Idaho and Durango are all PROBABLY GOING TO CHARGE THE SAME THING. I repeat myself when I pose the question: should I start a thread titled "Schweitzer Rip Off"? All that would accomplish is to help UNDERMINE THE HARD WORK those people have put in to MAKING YOUR LIFE BETTER. For the last time, I am not HAPPY about the extra $20 either, but it is at least decent of the promoter and resort to list the fee well in advance of the event, that way you can make an informed decision about whether or not you wish to attend.
2.) I like to be informed! I like to know when and where I need to be places, what's going on, and when the pros are running or whatever. So far, with the research I've done, Snowmass National and Durango Finals are really doing the diligence to keep us, the racer, in the know about these respective events. I wish www.norbanationals.com could have stepped up to the plate a little more in this regard, but as I said in the beginning of the post, one step at a time. Changes happen slowly and from the inside, with good feedback and hard work.
3.) I like BANG FOR MY BUCK. Yeah, you got it! The most racing, practice, and schwag that I can git for my hard earned dinero. Can I get an AMEN BROTHER?!?!?! But I also know that this is probably best at the local and regional level. Why? There are trade offs to racing Nationally vrs. Locally, and we've all heard the comparisons before. Local races are more "bang for the buck" with more schwag, lift tickets included, friendly atmosphere etc. Fewer racers that are from the immediate area mean the resorts are probably either promoting the races themselves or VERY interested in seeing some of those racers racers return in the winter months. Nationals have MUCH larger attendance, which means more staff, more long hours from the crew, but offer the racer a TON more exposure and competition, a more big-timey feel, Killer expo/demo/service opportunities (Boxxer pissing oil? Take it the the RS trailer and they PROBABLY stick the '05 valving in your '03 Team model 'cuz they can), World Class athletes, and FUGGIN' RACIN'. Yeah I said it, and that's how I feel: if you are travelling for or attending a National, you are there to RACE. At least I am, eh? If you're looking for the "all mountain freeride" or the "schwag bag hookup" then Local racing is DEFINITELY where it's at, without question. No ones arguing. As my account executive says "Stop drillin', Son! You've struck oil!" But at the Nationals, I want to race and watch racing, have plenty of time to practice and have some time in between to eat a sandwich or sleep or something. Looking at the schedule for the Snowmass National, for instance, and I think this is accomplished. Plenty of time for the amateur racer (me, for instance) to practice, eat, race, and STILL WATCH SOME PRO SH!T GO DOWN. I remember Durango a few years back, and none of us lowly Sport riders could see the Pro 4X finals. THAT blew. THIS is much better. Is it perfect? It sure ain't, but between XC, STXC, 4X, DH and Super-D across two genders, 30+ age breakdowns and 5 skill categories ranging from beginner to über-pro, the "bang for your buck" ain't half bad.
4.) Last of all, allow me to clarify my standpoint, that is, my perspective, also generally known as "what planet I am coming from" or "why I think the way I do": I AM NOT A RACE PROMOTER. I am a racer, and a crappy amateur racer at that. I am also a VOLUNTEER at events, donating my time to further the cause and the sport of racing bicycles. I also have, in the past, present and probably future, done graphic and web design (at prices SO LOW I'm ashamed of myself) for people in the bike industry: race teams, races, promoters, and bicycle manufacturers. So the cat's out of the bag, that's the view from where all my rantings have come from. Like it or not, I'm one of you guys: a racer, with a full-time job and rent to pay, that tries to give back to the community whenever he can and sneak in a mid-pack Expert 30-34 DH run whenever he can. So far I'm still off the back... look for me in Snowmass sporting a cowboy hat, bright pink jersey and a Yeti DH9. Just don't punch me, I'm sensitive.
If you're still with me, hopefully you'll click the dang link, already: http://www.snowmassnational.com/volunteer.htm
Peace out.
All very diligent points. And altho i know you guys have made strides, i wasn't picking on any particular venue at all. (sorry if that wasn't clear). I just meant IN GENERAL national racing is getting to be out of control money grab-a-thons.Full Trucker said:
Figure...$10 x 2 + 65 (pro registration, on site) So
$85usd for a pro registration...+ $750 for pit space + $150 for power..
Vs bromont...with less riders, as much chair to run (they need 1 chair not 2 however, but hire twice as many peopel to work them..beats me why).
$55cnd Registration + free pit space +if you want power, go to the bathroom.
Now bromont's promoter makes mad cash off the race..and the mountain gets a fairly decent cut I am told + the food sales + bar sales.
Why can't all races run like this???? I am not even singling out usa vs canada, as Tremblant is intrawest and we have anothe rnational there. They wanted $550 cnd for tent space..GET BENT BOZOS. Oh then they had the balls to complain that not enough industry people/teams showed up to make it seem pro...They MADE giant canada take down their tents....lame.
My only point is that with proper management, including expenditures and sponsorships, cheaper races CAN happen. Now i have never seen a single race without sponsorship banners all over it's merchandise/venue/flyers/number plates (save for maybe moab, which rocked BTW), so they all have the income coming in.
I understand putting on races is expensive for the smaller promoter...but with 1500+ racers in a weekend, it isn't that hard given proper attention to detail.
Gee........
If would be happy to pay $10US to use a lift. It costs us $65AUS per day (about $45US) to use the ski lifts at thredbo, australia.
The USA is a capitalist country. Everyone is out to make as much money as they can, however they can, in the shortest possible time they can. Why are the lift operators not entiteld to try and make a big profit like every other company in america does??? They are not a charity.
You guys are way to spoiled in the states with all the kickass riding areas with access to ski lifts for $10 per day. My heart bleeds for you.
If would be happy to pay $10US to use a lift. It costs us $65AUS per day (about $45US) to use the ski lifts at thredbo, australia.
The USA is a capitalist country. Everyone is out to make as much money as they can, however they can, in the shortest possible time they can. Why are the lift operators not entiteld to try and make a big profit like every other company in america does??? They are not a charity.
You guys are way to spoiled in the states with all the kickass riding areas with access to ski lifts for $10 per day. My heart bleeds for you.
You dont seem to understand the issue here at all. This is $10 a day, ON TOP OF THE RACE REGISTRATION FEE.Cave Dweller said:Gee........
If would be happy to pay $10US to use a lift. It costs us $65AUS per day (about $45US) to use the ski lifts at thredbo, australia.
The USA is a capitalist country. Everyone is out to make as much money as they can, however they can, in the shortest possible time they can. Why are the lift operators not entiteld to try and make a big profit like every other company in america does??? They are not a charity.
You guys are way to spoiled in the states with all the kickass riding areas with access to ski lifts for $10 per day. My heart bleeds for you.
I just wanna say...That i was wrong.
All of you guys have valid points and it was wrong of me to accuse anyone of whining. I totally mistook what was trying to be pointed out. Sorry Guys!
My Bad!
All of you guys have valid points and it was wrong of me to accuse anyone of whining. I totally mistook what was trying to be pointed out. Sorry Guys!
My Bad!
True true. I think with the NORBA NMBS, there's just so many entities and groups that are 'managing' the events, there is decentralization of how, when and where the resources are utilized. I mean, from what I understand it isn't just the promoter and the resort, there are MANY other groups, including but not limited to NORBA/USA Cycling. And as I said before, who does this affect the most? THE RACER. It's why people complain, and why I feel I have to crusade to get people to stay positive and realize that we DON'T have it that bad. Case in point:Transcend said:
With smaller races, I feel it's easier for the people running the event to apply their resources where it matters MOST: serving the racer. Unfortunately, even though more racers at an event = more money coming in, it also makes it harder to make sure everyone goes home stoked.Cave Dweller said:
Have a dinner party for 4 of your closest friends, then try catering to 50 people for instance. Suddenly, a potluck dinner doesn't sound like a bad idea, and that's how I see racing. Racer's getting involved is like bringing green bean casserole to Thanksgiving dinner: everyone chips in a tiny little amount, and everyone has 300% better time. But the minute that one guy shows up with a full appetite and empty hands and starts whining that the turkey's too dry and that there's no cranberry sauce it kinda brings the whole deal down...
Alright, I think I'm preaching to a few of the converts...
It's $10 extra to use the lifts on practice days. Not everyone goes to practice days, so i guess they figure if you want to practice you pay an extra $10 for that day.Transcend said:
Would it make you happier if they jacked up the race entry fee $10 for everyone and hid it in there?
My point still stands that that is dirt cheap. We have to pay $65AUS not $10US to use the lifts on non race days PLUS insurance, race fews etc etc.
Actually, THEY HAVE. They charge pros here $10 mroe, per entry, per event. Just for the sake of being pro. The excuse used to be that "well we are going to charge everyone else for lift usage on practice days, but not you guys. OK, weird but what the hell...Cave Dweller said:
now it's $10 more + $10 lift...oh and at mt snow, + 25 for PARKING IN A DIRT LOT. Whatever.
FT: The money management is out of hand recently. The promoter gets a cut, USA cycling/norba gets a cut, the mountain gets a cut. Now everyone wants a piece of the pie. USA cycling wants in on the cash grab, when they dont even do anything to run the events anymore. They say insurance...that iswhat the license was for, and the promoter and mountain also already took out liability insurance...care to try again?
The problem is they need 1 promoter, who knows what the hell they are doing (ie: not galeforce, not team big bear). They need to hire an outside of the industry promoter, one who hasnt entered the fraternal circle of slackers and money loser we call the bike industry.
Then they need to get off their asses and spnd that $ wisely. IE: NOT waste cash for catered media lunches, have a pro payout (disgrace not haviong one if you ask me), have a decent course cut by hiring a group of trail designers who travel and help design courses and make sure they fit a specific set of guidelines (length, style etc).
It is just out of hand now, and it is being run into the ground.
Also, assuming some people want to not practice and then encouraging this behaviour is irresponsible on their part. No practice = injuries. They are just bleeding the stone dry, no other reason.Cave Dweller said:
Some cash issues some of you might not know and not taking sides but giving info to all to use:
1. The initial power surge it takes to fire a single, small scale ski lift like Wolf Laurel (not counting running it 4 days straight) is over $5000 !!!!! That's just to start it one day.
2. In order to be considered a valid promoter who can host a National caliber event, you must show $100,000 minimum sponsorship dollars...hence showing your financial capacity.
3. Up to this point in time, not a single ski resort even needed to EVER open their doors during the off-season thanks to the revenue they generate on-season.....none of them.
4. Tailwind Sports is a money-making, well oiled machine that runs the New York Cycling Championships, Pennsylvania Cycling Championships and many more events with precision, finance and meticulous marketing and structure. You may have heard of them...they own a little team call US Postal Service. Having dealt with them personally recently, I've learned they spent close to a year pursuing the viability of putting on a NORBA National....it was deemed a money pit.
5. NORBA several years ago was hurting so bad for a title sponsor for the DH series that the eventual winning bidder was Chevy Trucks. They paid $10,000.
1. The initial power surge it takes to fire a single, small scale ski lift like Wolf Laurel (not counting running it 4 days straight) is over $5000 !!!!! That's just to start it one day.
2. In order to be considered a valid promoter who can host a National caliber event, you must show $100,000 minimum sponsorship dollars...hence showing your financial capacity.
3. Up to this point in time, not a single ski resort even needed to EVER open their doors during the off-season thanks to the revenue they generate on-season.....none of them.
4. Tailwind Sports is a money-making, well oiled machine that runs the New York Cycling Championships, Pennsylvania Cycling Championships and many more events with precision, finance and meticulous marketing and structure. You may have heard of them...they own a little team call US Postal Service. Having dealt with them personally recently, I've learned they spent close to a year pursuing the viability of putting on a NORBA National....it was deemed a money pit.
5. NORBA several years ago was hurting so bad for a title sponsor for the DH series that the eventual winning bidder was Chevy Trucks. They paid $10,000.
As much as I don't care about media lunch, I don't agree. Media is what brings sponsors, or at least the promise of media.Transcend said:
I think the best money spent would be money bringing in Sports Illustrated or ESPN Magazine. I don't care if they had to put them up in a hilton to get them here. (Paris or Nicky
)Big media means Big sponsorship. Big sponsorship means extra money for payouts. I HATE that there is no money or not a lot of money for pro payouts. It is rediculous that these guys put themselves out there with all this skill and work and they don't get what they deserve.
Bring media and you get money. It is not as simple as that but it sure would help.
I personally have written to local news as well as national media about covering MTB races. I realize it may never happen, but just putting a reminder that we are here, never hurts.
See I used to agree with you, but more and more at races all i see is little kids with press passes. I see no sports illustrated, barely any tv news or local papers etc. I have written coverage for local papers here. It always ends up being about 2" of print, no photos.Motionboy2 said:As much as I don't care about media lunch, I don't agree. Media is what brings sponsors, or at least the promise of media.
I think the best money spent would be money bringing in Sports Illustrated or ESPN Magazine. I don't care if they had to put them up in a hilton to get them here. (Paris or Nicky
Big media means Big sponsorship. Big sponsorship means extra money for payouts. I HATE that there is no money or not a lot of money for pro payouts. It is rediculous that these guys put themselves out there with all this skill and work and they don't get what they deserve.
Bring media and you get money. It is not as simple as that but it sure would help.
I personally have written to local news as well as national media about covering MTB races. I realize it may never happen, but just putting a reminder that we are here, never hurts.
So in essence, giving everyone free lunches doesn't help (and they are usually icky anyways)
Transcend said:
Now that I do agree with. I don't know why it is that I can get denied a press pass and there are 11 yr old kids that run around with one. It bugs me when I am get in the media area and I still have to fight my way past 10 people with plastic snapper they bought at walmart.
It bugs me even more when I can't get in the media area and I have to shoot through 10 people that don't even have cameras and they are just BSin' with each other and doen't even seem interested.
I don't know how to avoid that, but it would be awesome to boot those who don't need the pass and get some important people in there.
They used to need letters of assignment, proof of past work etc to get in. This would get you in the big norba (or UCI rainbow pass) book.Motionboy2 said:
NOw they do it on a seperate race by race basis, and it just doesn'ty work. All the local promoters buddies get passes (as do any VIPs who want them) and serious guys can't get shots. At Ste Anne, Marc Dawson, myself and some guys from the HUGE Quebec newspapers had to ask a few kids to move about a dozen times. These guys had remote fill flashes set up etc, and the kid still wouldn't move.
this is why freeriding is cool...you don't have to give a sh!t about anything, just ridin' bro!
No doubt! Freeriding is HELLA tight! It's so HOT!©2001 said:
New sticker idear: "I RACE BECAUSE I CARE" Awwwww...
i dont really know about all your numbers there. THe $5000 to start up the lift seems a little much. It wouldnt be possible for Mountain Creek to even break even if that was true. People need to go to the US Open and see how a real event is run. Amazing timing, great course, course maintnence during the race weekend, free lift tickets, cheap pit space, oh yea and $20,000 in cash plus over $10,000 in prizes going out. For those of you that dont know, this race is put on by ONE person who must know more than the entire norba staff about getting sponsors. The race at mountain creek makes you wonder what norba really does for you.bizutch said:
I don't know all the details, but when it comes to the lifts there is some crap about buying the power by the month. So if a small resort is going to have a race, it cost them a ton just to run the lifts for that weekend. They have to buy the power in one big block, and start up cost and all that. So yeah that sucks.DS Dom said:
Whereas a place like Mountain Creek just keeps theirs running all the time since they run pratically year round.
But you are right, The US Open rocked, and was probaly the best race I have ever been to.
....which is exactly what I was getting at. To make an event of the scale of a National "profitable", you're talking Massive amounts of sponsorship dollars to make it profitable. There are very few promotions groups with the savvy to pull in sponsors willing to put forth that much money for something so low profile as mountain biking. Having a full time "marketing professional" is a must.DS Dom said:
A company like Tailwind is a powerhouse marketing company and they couldn't justify doing one.
