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Snowshoe race series review(imo)

Sep 30, 2004
70
0
Arlington VA
Race course's were all 10's,my fav was # 3,felt good to go fast!
A lot of work went into the berms,jumps nicely built with easy approaches,and plenty of them!Loved the Maxxis moto section into
the berms on #4!
Timing system great,results were up fast.
Liked the am/pro class breakdown,most classes need more riders
and this acomplished that.The exception being the 19/39 group.
One more break at 30 would solve that.
Exellent course marshals and first aid crew.They really did a great job
of stabilizing our friend Bruce when he broke his neck,saving him from
a much more negative prognosis.
Great prizes!
Staff feels like,is,old friends.
Looking forward to next season,
Team Trails End:cheers:
 
Jun 11, 2004
463
0
I never raced before this season.

Always rode just for "the love."

But I made it to every race at SS this year........and have to admit.........it was AWESOME!!

It was definately a cool experience looking at the trails from a different perspective. I never looked for the "fast line" before. Was always looking for something to jump/drop/manual/trick off of...you know "freeride" if you will.

Anyways, I didn't think racing would be any different........but it is! There was definately a different kind adrenaline pumping when you are sitting in the start gate and you hear "10 seconds..........beep...beep....beep....beep....BEEEEEEEEEP!" :biggrin:

So big thanks again to Snow Shoe! :cheers:

Definately hope to do it again next season!
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
I liked the 3rd course the best. It flowed and had a ton of high speed that suits my strengths.

I too liked the whoops on the 4th race course. That whole section was awesome. The only thing I didn't like on the 4th course was the lack of flow in the long rocky section after the whoops. I didn't even mind the uphill.
 

Bearmntpicnic

Monkey
Oct 23, 2005
838
0
charlottesville
the fourth was my favorite. Super techny and had a bit of everything in it. There were a couple of akward turns but it just made it harder. liek the off camber section entering upper hair ball.
 

Guard

Monkey
Apr 21, 2004
486
0
Wilkes "By God" County
I loved all the courses but if I had to pick one as my favorite I'd say the first one...of course it could have been all the rain too. The morning of the 1st race was the most fun I had had in a long time...just following the stream of water down the course was killer:biggrin: Thanks Snowshoe guys for making it happen. Can't wait till next year!!!!:banana:
 
I liked them all, but i guess my favorite top to bottom was the first course. I was digging the top section of race #4 through the moto section, but had my problems keeping speed and my fingers off those brakes in quick draw.

Looked forward to seeing the "usual" Friday practice crew at each race and catching up with everyone else on Saturday. It was good getting to know some of you better. I can't wait til next year:biggrin:
 

Pi31412

Chimp
May 30, 2006
90
0
Snowshoe could invest in a shade-making device for the bottom and that would make hanging out and watching your buds/competition cross the line 10x more enjoyable. We call em folding canopy things oop narth.

Otherwise it was a GREAT series with GREAT riding and GREAT times by all my GREAT friends!! GRRRRRREAT!!!

:tonythetigerrmmod:
 

dhbuilder

jingoistic xenophobe
Aug 10, 2005
3,040
0
filling out a tax form and waiting a month for your cash/check was bogus.

absolutely no reason not to walk away with your goods at the time of the awards.

other than that, the two i attended were a blast.
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
filling out a tax form and waiting a month for your cash/check was bogus.
Who didn't get their money? Just curious. Did they not give you your prize money?

I definatly understand why they need the SS#. When I was running races I ran into the accountant on this issue. Anyone with over $600 or $800 in annual winnings needs to be issued a 1099. Since they don't know how much your going to win, they kind of need to get your info up front. I didn't collect that info and had to get it later. Trust me on how much of a pain it is to get someone's SS# after you paid them months ago. I always paid cash.

That said, you should have walked with the check. However, most other sports don't pay the prize money immeadlitly either.
 

dhchix

Chimp
Mar 26, 2006
68
0
NC
You had to fill out a form after each race and a check is mailed to you. So far, it is taking about a month before you receive your winnings. Over all, the series was a blast and I hope they will do it again next year. Snowshoe ROCKS!:banana:
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
Yeah, props for snowshoe even paying the amatuer classes. Heck, I race moto and the winner of the 250A class (full on Pro rider) is lucky to walk with $150.
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
I've said it before and I'll say it again... if you need few people in your class to place well, then you are in the wrong class or you're just not a fast racer. Thats in response to the first poster.

I liked 4 different courses. Some suited my style, some didn't. But I can't get better if I only race courses that suit me.

I don't think Ams should get paid. I know I'll take a lot of flack for this, but guys like Herndon, Geritt, and Jamie put everything thing on hold for most of the year to race. Paying them all that they can get is only fair... as I see it.

I hope the road gap is in every race next year.
 
Jun 11, 2004
463
0
I don't think Ams should get paid. I know I'll take a lot of flack for this, but guys like Herndon, Geritt, and Jamie put everything thing on hold for most of the year to race. Paying them all that they can get is only fair... as I see it.
I agree. I am completely new to racing......so I may get some flack too. :biggrin:

To me Elite/Pro = paid professional

Amateur = weekend warrior/rides for fun

Anyways, the SS series was the first racing I have ever done.....and I was SURPRISED to see the Amateur class get paid.......some cool prizes for the top 3 was all I was expecting.

As an Amateur I was mostly looking for:

1. A great weekend of riding

2. Some adrenaline driven good old fashion competition

3. Glad to ride the same course as the Pros......to see how my race time "stacks up"

4. A great weekend of riding.................:biggrin:
 

denjen

Certified Lift Whore
Sep 16, 2001
1,691
36
Richmond VA
I've said it before and I'll say it again... if you need few people in your class to place well, then you are in the wrong class or you're just not a fast racer. Thats in response to the first poster.

I liked 4 different courses. Some suited my style, some didn't. But I can't get better if I only race courses that suit me.

I don't think Ams should get paid. I know I'll take a lot of flack for this, but guys like Herndon, Geritt, and Jamie put everything thing on hold for most of the year to race. Paying them all that they can get is only fair... as I see it.

I hope the road gap is in every race next year.
Cutting the AM class in half would still leave 20-30 or more riders in each class. That is plenty to try your skills against. Not trying to start a pissing match, I just know of alot of guys like myself who wouldnt have their feeling hurt if they spit it up.

As for the races you couldnt ask for anything more. The guys at SS stepped up to the plate big time this year. From the trail builders to the shop guys and anybody else that helped in any way, everybody made this one of the best summers Ive ever had at SS
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
How were the lift lines for race #4.......?

Some young newbies from up my way were pretty upset after race#3, coughed up a ton of money getting there only to be backed up into 1 hour lift lines. Seems the place was over run with freeriders. Maybe they need to make racers the priority because that is why the lift is running anyway ? Or if running the western lift is an expense they cant handle every weekend then how-about once a month freeride weekends.
 

denjen

Certified Lift Whore
Sep 16, 2001
1,691
36
Richmond VA
How were the lift lines for race #4.......?

Some young newbies from up my way were pretty upset after race#3, coughed up a ton of money getting there only to be backed up into 1 hour lift lines. Seems the place was over run with freeriders. Maybe they need to make racers the priority because that is why the lift is running anyway ? Or if running the western lift is an expense they cant handle every weekend then how-about once a month freeride weekends.
When did the lift lines get that long? The only time during race 3 that they got backed up was the practice just before the race. The lift was supposed to start an hour early but nobody told the lift guys that so they came in at their usual time. That backed it up pretty bad but other than that there wasnt an hour long wait
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
When did the lift lines get that long? The only time during race 3 that they got backed up was the practice just before the race.
hmmmmm.....didn't that race have practice on Friday.....wer'e the lift line ok then....?

Maybe they just showed up for practice saturday expecting to get 6 practice runs in before the race..?.....maybe i'm not getting the whole story. Anyone drving that far to race should make it worth the time and money and get there early enough to get practice the day before...
 

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,784
118
Waxhaw, NC
I've said it before and I'll say it again... if you need few people in your class to place well, then you are in the wrong class or you're just not a fast racer. Thats in response to the first poster.

Re-read the first post. The writer is happy with the all of the class breakdowns except the 18-39 age bracket.

There did seem to be a huge turnout for that age bracket in the amatur class. The age range is pretty broad. Would it hurt if the they broke it up next year? Maybe 18-29 and 30-39? I would think each range should still see 20+ riders based on this years turnout. SS would know best since they have info about the rider's age and how many were on each side of 30.
 

denjen

Certified Lift Whore
Sep 16, 2001
1,691
36
Richmond VA
hmmmmm.....didn't that race have practice on Friday.....wer'e the lift line ok then....?

Maybe they just showed up for practice saturday expecting to get 6 practice runs in before the race..?.....maybe i'm not getting the whole story. Anyone drving that far to race should make it worth the time and money and get there early enough to get practice the day before...
Yeah pratice was friday, race was saturday.Friday practice was fine never more than a couple minute wait. If they did just show up sat morning hoping to get a bunch of runs in then yes they where screwed
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
Re-read the first post. The writer is happy with the all of the class breakdowns except the 18-39 age bracket.

There did seem to be a huge turnout for that age bracket in the amatur class. The age range is pretty broad. Would it hurt if the they broke it up next year? Maybe 18-29 and 30-39? I would think each range should still see 20+ riders based on this years turnout. SS would know best since they have info about the rider's age and how many were on each side of 30.
I read it the first time and I re-read it a second time and my post is still valid, as is his. Why would you want to break down the bracket? Because you are a 30+ and got beat by a bunch of 18-29ers? Older folks always seem to blame their lack of training and skill on someone else's age and lack of needing to go to work on Monday.

Just try harder. :bonk: I have a problem with people needing to make smaller classes so they can have a better numeric finish. That seems the wrong way to move up.
 

SK6

Turbo Monkey
Jul 10, 2001
7,586
0
Shut up and ride...
OK, lets take a closer look at the ONLY gripe that people had with the whole series; it wasn't a huge gripe, but more of an observation than a gripe, was combining 18 to 39 is a little unrealistic. A 39 year old has different physical attributes then an 18 year old. This is not a derogatory statement, it is an accurate statement on evolution. Neither are any better or any worse, but someone who is 39 will ride a bit different for a different number of reasons.

That's it in a nutshell. The reason people made commentary and not a major bitchfest about it is that Snowshoe did an awesome frickin job with the whole series. They secured prize money, and a good bit of it, and had excellent prizes for all who finished well.

The bottom line, we were all thrilled to see the pro's actually make money in racing as opposed to a frickin T-shirt for all their troubles. Me, I don't expect to win, and have fun riding the trails, the camaraderie, the view, and fighting my own opersonal demons. The course was not always easy, and it stretched many people. If it were easy, EVERYONE would do it.
 

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,784
118
Waxhaw, NC
I read it the first time and I re-read it a second time and my post is still valid, as is his. Why would you want to break down the bracket? Because you are a 30+ and got beat by a bunch of 18-29ers? Older folks always seem to blame their lack of training and skill on someone else's age and lack of needing to go to work on Monday.

Just try harder. :bonk: I have a problem with people needing to make smaller classes so they can have a better numeric finish. That seems the wrong way to move up.

It has nothing to do with riding skill or lack of training. Not everyone in the Amatuer class is trying to move up. A lot are racing because it is fun. It has to do with the fact that it is an Amatuer class, not a Pro class. Can you honestly tell me that an 18 year old has the same mentality as someone that is 39? When I was 18 I didn't have any fear like I do at 35. I have to worry about the well being of my wife, my kids, my home and my job. I have to worry that an injury can affect ALL of the above. I have to worry about the fact the an injury now will not heal as quick as it would 17 years ago when I was 18. More recovery time can lead to less time worked and less money earned. I think the majority of us in the 30-39 year old range have similar concerns that would prevent them from pushing as hard mentally as someone 18-29. Granted there are exceptions. These are people that have what it takes to move up to the Pro/Elite class and race all age ranges to see who the fastest on the mountain, period.

Now all this aside. Once again Snowshoe has the ages of all the riders. If the majority of the racers in the current 18-39 class fall on one side of 30, by all means leave the class alone. If it is a pretty even, split the class. I could understand your point if there were only a few racers on a class. I wouldn't want one age range to have ten riders and the other 30. But if it even, why not? There was almost 70 entries in the 18-39 class at race # 3. Isn't that a bit much?


Based on your reasoning, why not just make all the Amatuers race togther in one class? :bonk:

Edit: see what happens when you get old? Reactions get slower and I have 3 posts ahead of me already. :huh:
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
Not everyone in the Amatuer class is trying to move up. A lot are racing because it is fun.
Then why should you care what your place and why would you feel better if you got a better finish against a smaller class of people your own age?
 

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,784
118
Waxhaw, NC
Then why should you care what your place and why would you feel better if you got a better finish against a smaller class of people your own age?
How long do you expect some one to continue to race and support a series when they are consistantly getting beat by some one HALF their age? If the classes are still big enough break them down to people to have some sense of accomplishment (race #3 has almost 70 entries!). Don't you think it might help the series grow more which might help the sport grow more? If the classes get too small by all means condense them.

In all honesty why does this bother you? You race in the Elite class, correct? It doesn't affect your outcome one bit. :bonk:
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
There is merit in all of the above points. However, if the promoter wants to make money then they need to use the prize money to draw in the biggest crowd. Amatuer prize money and big name pros both bring in other racers.

Snowshoe needs to make money in order to keep the races going. So we all want them to make money. Therefore, some money to the am class is probably a good investment. I think that they have the payout structure at a good balance for the 19-39 class. with 70 people at $45 each and considering the expenses, the payout is good. The 40+ payout is really good considering the number of entries.

Now ask some amatuers and novices if they really care if there are big named pros there. Most will agree that they want some pro riders there. Wether it be local pros or a kirkadale. So there needs to be some incintive for them to show up (other than the obvious that they like to ride). All that said, the pro purse has nothing to do with how hard they work. It all has to do with getting as many people as possible to the the race.

Again, props to the Snowshoe crew. I said I'd never go back to that swamp hole after the 2004 race. I went back in 2005 for a reason other than racing and the crew there seemed to be turning things around. 2006 has been a major improvement. The timing/results on the board at the bottom is also a good thing that hasn't been mentioned.

Keep it up guys.
 

corey_rideDC

Turbo Monkey
Sep 1, 2004
1,368
0
DCmetro
Just because it doesn't affect someone personally doesn't invalidate their opinion in any way. I turned 30 this summer and loved racing against 70+ guys at ss #3. Look at the time differences between most NORBA Senior & Vet classes, they're not that different. The only thing this really affects is your ability to tell the office "yeah, i got 6th place this weekend... (mumble) out of 9 (mumble)"

keep it up snowshoe!
 

_bp

Monkey
Apr 20, 2004
218
0
Annandale
Here are the results from the Mount Snow national in 2000:

http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?year=2000&id=260&info_id=44

Take a look at the number of entries in the classes. Sixty riders in a class is pretty much the norm of the expert classes.

Here are results from the Sugar national this year:

http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?year=2006&id=929&info_id=6667

If you look at the results from the expert catagories the first three guys in the 35-39 age group, which had 15 racers, would have finished second, third, and fourth in th 19-24 class, which had eight racers.

I understand that resposibilty may prevent you from giving your full abilities to racing. But you make the choice to put your family and other responsibilities above racing. The unfortunate cost of these decisions is that you may not be as competative at the races as you want to be.

I just don't see how breaking up the classes would solve any of this. Prizes cannot possibly be a justifiable reason. We spend thousands of dollars on our bikes, hundreds on entry fees, hundreds on lodging, hundreds on gas, not to mention the time on the road and time at the resort away from our families. And everyone who attends the races has decided, consciousley or subconciously that this is justifiable. But we can not possible justify all this for the hope of a $100 payday or a $35 floor pump (Consider the dimished quality of prizes when you have to give or two or three times as many).

We do this because we love to ride our bikes, because we are competative, and we want to see where we stack up.

What Snowshoe has tried to do with is eliminate the arbitrary, with classes dictated by age. This takes it to the heart of competition. I mean you could make a pretty good argument for elimnating all classes and only having one.

It seems that we have all been racing in classes with only five entrants for the last couple of years, so we have all got to go to our spot on the podium. I applaud Snowshoe for making that climb onto the box mean something again.
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
How long do you expect some one to continue to race and support a series when they are consistantly getting beat by some one HALF their age?
But you said this...

Salami said:
It has nothing to do with riding skill or lack of training. Not everyone in the Amatuer class is trying to move up. A lot are racing because it is fun. It has to do with the fact that it is an Amatuer class, not a Pro class
Which is it. Are you guys there to race to win or to race to have fun?

You are right, none of this effects me. But I think it waters down my (our) sport and makes it lame. I also think its just a huge problem America has in general. The whole lowest common denomenator thing is killing us. And people wonder why we aren't competitive on the WC scene. Look at the UK and the Aussies. They race with something very similar to the AM/Pro format without age brackets and they are better racers for it.
 

Pi31412

Chimp
May 30, 2006
90
0
With precisely 5 races under my belt I think we can all agree that I'm an authority on matters. And I give to thee, my knowledge:

- Classes matter to me when I can snear "sandbagger" through my teeth at people who beat me.

- I don't care about prize, unless it's tires. I can always use more tires, but not those damn hard compound Maxxis tires, I have plenty of those. Give away consumables: brake pads, derailleur hanger gift certificates, lock-on clamps, or medium cage x.7 rear derailleurs. Something us racers can appreciate appreciate.

- Hardtail guys could use their own class. I think that's the only major thing lacking from these races and it's obviously going to be hard to put the class together based on limited numbers, but those guys are a different breed (usually the "I'm broke" breed, but regardless).

- Ditch the intro class unless there's some way to enforce whether or not the person has been lingering in that class. This would get rid of the cries of "sandbagger". If not, figure out a criteria for people racing intro. I think one season's worth of races (4 then?) would be fair for a local series like the SS stuff.

- Classes should Pro/Open, Everyone else. Throw in subcat's for juniors (<18) and women. Done.

In conclusion, I'm with Profro and think SS got it mostly right. I'm deeply saddened* by people actually having so little athletic self respect and pride that they would want to put up a laundry list of reasons why they need a separate class. Why? Because they're married and have kids? Middle-aged spread? Seriously? If you want to know how well you did compared to your aging peers then do this...

- Add a column to the official scoring called "age" and let riders pick through the ranking themselves and decide on arbitrary groupings. Between my buddies we compare ourselves but for some maybe they want to split it up by stuff like "rotund and single" or "portly and married" or "stringbeans with gotees".




*a lie, I'm not saddened, but I am laughing.
 

SDH

I'm normal
Oct 2, 2001
374
0
Northern Va.
Since I am in for the fun now (beat my body enough in DH and BoarderX for the last 10 years), racing is social for me and although most times it is cool racing against the young guys b/c if a beat a few it makes me feel better (especially in XC), although sometimes it is cool to mix it up race wise with a bunch of guys who are in my own demographic/lifestyle. I see them as my real competition and will probably risk more to beat them than the young gun. I could care less about the young gun, I already know he will probably beat me, even if I am more skilled b/c he is fitter (even though I train) and more of a risk taker.
Another point is the social factor, looking back on the race line and betting the dude behind you a beer or joking about how much advil it will take to get out of bed tomorrow to go to work is all part of the fun, instead of looking behind you and seeing an kid 20 years younger than you that instead of betting him you give him girl advice or review his times tables.
I think there is greater difference btw 18 and 39 and less of a difference than say 30 and 45. I still think we do not need 80 classes, keep the two, but split it by "lifestlye". 18 to 29 (still the rockstar years) and 30+ (the hope I can get out the bed tomorrow for work or the wife will kill me years).
Will this attitude get me better? I could kinda care less........I leave that to you gnarcore pros and younger kids to push the sport
Complaining? No just my thoughts............. I still had a rocking time at SS

It is interesting the perspectives though, it almost seems pros/semi pros have one perspective and "Joe Dher on the weekends" has another. Kinda like the rich (a head of the game) and the poor (just in the game) have similiar different perspectives.

I will say if you do keep it all in one class, there should be a qualifying round, given the vast time differnces in the class. This way during the race run the slower guys will not mess up the race run of the faster guys .

WRT, to Profro response of us sukking it in the WC, that has nothing to do in the classes we race in the US, it has more to do with Europe having a greater biking culture than we do. Same can be said with soccer.

WRT to Bp's comments, those really fast expert dudes that are old are either 1) ex moto dudes that do Dh b/c it is safer or 2) do not/can't get into the semi pro classes b/c they do not do enough races. So they stay in expert and spank.....
 
Sep 30, 2004
70
0
Arlington VA
The more winners/podiums = more happy riders/customers.I'm 47 and happy they made a break at 40.Most of my friends are in their 30's and sport level riders,and they weren't pleased with the lack of classes.Bottom line,they didn't show.
Again,everything else about the series was perfect.One more age break would make for perfection!(oh yeah,less rain would be good too!)
 

dhbuilder

jingoistic xenophobe
Aug 10, 2005
3,040
0
ya'll didn't think you were going to talk about the age issue without my @$$ chiming in did you ?

at the age of fifty, i raced two of the s.s. races.
had a blast and did quite well in the old guys class.(third and second)
most were quite a bit younger than myself.
and one was quite a bit faster than the rest of the field.

if i'd been riding more often instead of trailbuilding so darn much, my run times would have been quicker.
nowadays i'm more of a coaster than pedalmasher.

one of my two best riding partners consistantly placed top five in the younger am. group.
and the other showed up for one race and ripped a top ten in that same group. and he's 38.
all three of us ride our hometrails at about the same pace.
and if i had better pedaling legs, my two race times would have been right up there with theirs if s.s. had a steeper mt that didn't require so much pedaling.

the ability to rip on a bike has more to do with how good a racer you are, than the age factor does.

i'm prouder of those two race finishes against a group of well over a dozen in my class at each race.
than i was for one of my norba nat. wins in that same age goup, when there was barely a single handfull of racers registered.

another factor is how much downhill do you ride and where.
we ride two to three days a week here at windrock. and saturdays and sundays we get in a sh..load of runs in.
that gives us a huge advantage when it comes to going up to s.s. and racing.
during the all day practice sessions the day before the races, we were making twelve to fifteen runs at speed each day.
and the difference in speeds as we blew past numerous riders on every run, was scary.

you can't expect to come to a downhill race without riding A LOT of downhill week after week, and expect to do well.

ability blows the doors off of age every time.