[SK6]

While I agree, and Trevyn told me the same thing, I thought the way they did the trail system was done with 'go-rounds", and that was ok. That being said, I make no excuses for my performance at the last race, none at all, BUT....

With SO many riders at SO many levels on the same trail made it a bit difficult for everyone concerned, pro's and dopes like me. Its really a catch 22, because there is so much to simply be maintained, that doing it all is quite a daunting task.

Regardless, the fact Brad and Trevyn are doing what they are, I believe are doing the best they can with what they have in regard to money, management, and of course, all of us b!tchin and complaining...I'm grateful for a place to ride.

 

[dhbuilder]

Regardless, the fact Brad and Trevyn are doing what they are, I believe are doing the best they can with what they have in regard to money, management, and of course, all of us b!tchin and complaining...I'm grateful for a place to ride.

well said.

i've always thought that snowshoe has done as good a job as they could/can with what that mountan has to offer as far as terrain goes.
and i personally think the trails already cater to the intermediate rider.
the pitch of their slopes aren't that steep.
and every tech section has a ride around.
but not utilizing natural features as you build, does a dis-service to all riders and abilities.

downhill riding is quite a step up from the dirt sidewalk world of the majority of todays x-c trails.
the bikes are ever increasing in their ability to conquer terrain.
and properly armored, riders of all skill levels should be able to further their skills as they push the limits.

machine built trails are obviously very popular right now.
and they have their place and will without a doubt be a huge draw to the resort.
but forsaking the good natural singletrack that those mountains have to offer is something i hope they don't do.

but what ever they choose to do as they develop the mt.
they need to realize that the lift is no small part of their appeal.
suck it up and run it.
lose a little now and show your commitment to your riders.
you know it'll come back to you many times over.

 

[Mr Ridiculous]

I agree wholeheartedly with sk6. I'm even more greatful for a place to ride, considering that it's basically the only DH in West Virginia. I love not having to travel out of state for great riding. So I hope that everybody sticks with SS during the lean years so that they can become a premiere location in the future.

 

[denjen]

My biggest bitch is that I feel like I already have stuck it out through the lean years and that it was already well on its way to being a premiere location. I have been going to SS since '98 or '99 when it was 99% XC bikes on the trailer and we were all in awe when a real DH bike showed up. I drove 2 hours past Wintergreen when everybody was going there because I loved Snowshoe so much more. Every year they have moved forward with their program, this year I feel like they took a few steps back. I have heard some of the reasoning behind what is going on and can understand it to a certain degree, but to tell people to stick with us and it will get better doesn’t fly to good with me. I love the place and the people just don’t agree with some of the decisions.


To all the SS employees sorry for the bitch and thank you guys for all the hard work you have put into the bike program I appreciate it to no end. I have supported SS for years and hope to do so for many more to come. See you this summer

Dennis

 

[Dartman]

I'm with you Dennis.

 

[profro]

I just noticed the adjusted payout. Awesome! Thanks for listening to everyone's advice. See you guys at Race#1.

 

[stoneysnake]

well said.


but what ever they choose to do as they develop the mt.
they need to realize that the lift is no small part of their appeal.
suck it up and run it.
lose a little now and show your commitment to your riders.
you know it'll come back to you many times over.

ummmmm one lift and 2 shuttles running and we need to suck it up more?

 

[stoneysnake]

I just noticed the adjusted payout. Awesome! Thanks for listening to everyone's advice. See you guys at Race#1.

no worries- we're listening

 

[dhbuilder]

ummmmm one lift and 2 shuttles running and we need to suck it up more?

then how come everyone is under the impression that the lift is going to be running sporadically at best ??

does this mean that the lift is going to be up and running EVERY weekend that the place is open for mt. bike buisness ??

i was just basing my comments on the fact that one of ya'll's spokesmen was talking about the profitability of running the lift.($1,000 per.)
no one thinks for a minute that it runs itself for free.
the guys that stand there all day long who run it surely don't do it gratis.
and it's not a perpetual motion machine by any means.
we all realize it takes big $$$ to operate and maintain it.

and that intrawest was diversified enough through other venues and properties to be able to "suck it up" and perhaps not post a profit right away by running it on a consistant basis.
that way people could make rock solid plans involving a bunch of their riding buddies getting together and riding there.
not having to make plans for a particular weekend (the opening one for example) just to find out that the lift won't be operating.

so the general idea floating around here was that you're (intrawest, not you guys personally) raising rates and cutting amenities.
and my response was far tamer than most.

we realize that a company owns the area.
and they aren't in the buisness of loosing $$$.
they have a long range plan and a budget.

so do most mt bike downhill riders.
bang for the buck is what it's all about.
snowshoe has never failed to deliver that any time i've ever been there. and most others will say the same thing.

to many folks on this forum, it was just starting to sound like the bottom line was becoming more important than the services rendered.

 

[SK6]

My post was more of an attempt to thank Trevyn and Brad, and the crew for their hard work. I agree, the way they are planning on doing things this year seems an awkward step in the wrong direction.

Guys like Denjen, Dartman, and I know QUITE few other people have stuck it consistently with the resort, and I not only can see how they feel, but would tend to agree with it. I myself went there once two years ago, and then last year numerous times. Had I been a season pass holder last year I would have been as concerned as they were last year.

Being one myself, I feel a legitimate concern voiced, is our right, so long as it is done respectfully; not like an individual who went ballistic over 15 dollars last year. While I may have in the past two years become a "regular", there are those who have been there for almost ten years. It may be wise to listen to what they have to say....and certainly weigh what they have to say with the given set of circumstances management has place the resort in.

Sometimes with these posts I may seem wishy washy with my stance, however, I try to attempt to broach the subject with some objectivity, based on the information I myself have on-hand. In this instance, I believe the resorts increase in costs, and the attempt to make the season pass holder more appeased, I believe the lift issue makes everyone ask, what exactly are we getting for our money.

I wrote this in Word earlier, and then read DHbuilder’s post, and would have to concur with the general consensus. And that consensus is more money for all to pay this year, and less running of the lift. I feel bad though because Trevyn and Brad, and the rest of the crew bust their asses, and for there hard work they get to read the b!tching. I’m glad I have a place to ride, and the work you guys do is awesome, however, with the rising cost it seems at a minimum, we would at least get what we did last year, some lift time.

And if Monster Park cost so much money to put on, is there no savings that could defray some of the expense? I read somewhere Monster Park monies would be better served for trails, riding and the like.

Either way, the summer will be what people make it, I would simply rather see most of them at the “Shoe”.

 

[dhbuilder]

exactly.
my comments were aimed at the big dogs.

not the real folks who are out there giving you locals and us tourists a place to ride.

in fact i think someone earlier in this very thread said something to the effect that the guys up there were being put between a rock and a hard place.

 

[dhbuilder]

Sorry boys and girls. This year they have elected to not operate the western lift this opening weekend. The shuttle will be operating Friday-Monday, 25-28th. I should have an updated operating schedule on the site this week.

i think this is what got everyone so riled up.

 

[dhbuilder]

Sounds to me like Trevyn and the rest of the crew is getting fvcked over big time. I know this is all kind of upsetting but I don't think that it's very fair to take it out on them. I could be wrong, but it sounds like this screw job has came from much higher up. It seems like the bike crew is trying to make do with the scraps they're given.

and this is what we all see too.
which led to my take on corporate trail systems.

 

[beachbum]

T-pro, stoney Has Snowshoe ever just relied on shuttles with opening weekend #'s?
That's a load of riders for 2 shuttles!

 

[stoneysnake]

then how come everyone is under the impression that the lift is going to be running sporadically at best ??

does this mean that the lift is going to be up and running EVERY weekend that the place is open for mt. bike buisness ??QUOTE]

we do run 1 lift EVERY weekend. from june 19th to sept. 4th that same lift runs 7 days a week(http://ride.snowshoemtn.com/rates05.html). 2 lifts EVERY race weekend and 2 shuttles EVERY other weekend. running 2 lifts EVERY weekend is a tall order however, that is what we all want so we'll continue to take the steps needed to work in that direction.

 

[stoneysnake]

T-pro, stoney Has Snowshoe ever just relied on shuttles with opening weekend #'s?
That's a load of riders for 2 shuttles!

yes with the basin lift running

 

[profro]

But the question is Brad, when I come up the weekend after Race #1 for a ride weekend will you be riding with me?

 

[urwaytoocool4me]

$1,000 a day to run the lift seems like a lot, unless you consider it light of winter lift ticket prices. That's only 16 lift tickets out of 6,000 to 10,000 tickets sold every weekend and every day for two weeks from Christmas through the week after New Years and on every other Holiday. This year they were at full capacity over Christmas and New Year's week with what, 4 lifts running and 30% open?

It's called Silo accounting boys and girls. They also make a ton off of food and beverage sales. They make a ton of money off of retail sales. The get 50% of every condo owners gross rental income (you pay your mortgage, the cleaning and laundry, electricity, water and sewer, cable television, firewood, parking lot snow removal, maintenance, etc. etc. out of you 50%). And they charge every condo owner for a portion of the resort's overhead. They make a handsome profit from the sale of every over priced condo that they overcrowd the mountain with.

The mountain makes tons of money. It would not have been purchased by a private equity group if it didn't. Just like every other corporate takeover group they are going to bleed the business dry and then sell the carcass.

You won't change their behavior by supporting them with your dollars. You'll only change behavior by withholding your financial support.

One day the winter moroons will release that you can fly out west, get equilavent or cheaper lodging, equilavent or cheaper food, cheaper lift tickets and 3,000 to 5,000 skiable acres vs. the whopping 236 at Snowshoe. And you'll share those skiable acres with fewer skiers, boarders than you will on any given Saturday or holiday at Snowshoe.

Don't believe that, I'm taking bets.

 

[-BB-]

=
that way people could make rock solid plans involving a bunch of their riding buddies getting together and riding there.
not having to make plans for a particular weekend (the opening one for example) just to find out that the lift won't be operating.

so the general idea floating around here was that you're (intrawest, not you guys personally) raising rates and cutting amenities.
and my response was far tamer than most.

we realize that a company owns the area.
and they aren't in the buisness of loosing $$$.
they have a long range plan and a budget.

so do most mt bike downhill riders.
bang for the buck is what it's all about.
snowshoe has never failed to deliver that any time i've ever been there. and most others will say the same thing.

to many folks on this forum, it was just starting to sound like the bottom line was becoming more important than the services rendered.

Seriously!!

I made plans to fly out from Cali, then a week before I leave they decide not to run a lift? IMO THAT is BS. You want to make a decision? Cool. Just make it well in advance, and don't post info to the contrary.

And SS is asking riders to "stick it out" while they revamp their busniess model? Yet when a rider asks them to stick it out and operate the lift, they are crazy?

 

[BAXTER]

It's obvious those guys are doing all they can. Why does everyone continue to complain. IT"S THE COMPANY. THE COMPANY DOESN"T CARE. Companies look at profit and loss. Why don't we give all those guys a break a shut up. If it's too expensive and you are pissed then DON"T GO. Go to another mountain. Bottom line is **** costs money. If it's not in their budget, where is the extra cash going to come from. Everyone should be greatfull to have a lift and shuttle assisted mountain to ride at that has some cool trails. Has anyone thought that maybe THE COMPANY has cut their summer budget back? You know businesses do that .

 

[gastro]

It's obvious those guys are doing all they can. Why does everyone continue to complain. IT"S THE COMPANY. THE COMPANY DOESN"T CARE. Companies look at profit and loss. Why don't we give all those guys a break a shut up. If it's too expensive and you are pissed then DON"T GO. Go to another mountain. Bottom line is **** costs money. If it's not in their budget, where is the extra cash going to come from. Everyone should be greatfull to have a lift and shuttle assisted mountain to ride at that has some cool trails. Has anyone thought that maybe THE COMPANY has cut their summer budget back? You know businesses do that .

This is a discussion forum - people discuss things. Few, if any, hold any animosity toward the trail crew. Most, if not all, enjoy riding Snowshoe immensely. I think the predominant sense here is not anger, but rather concern over the cutback in services and what effect that will have on the long term health of the mtb program.

And hey, apparently rider input played a part in getting race fees lowered for the season - perhaps it'll work to get the western lift spinning again also.

 

[BAXTER]

Yes the race fees got lowered. At what expense? Maybe the original fees were built into there operating cost based on last years attendance. Point being they are lowered and the western lifts are not running. Anyway, I've been in the bike industry all my life from shops to INDEPENDENT FABRICATION and so on, and I 've never heard more complaining (discussion) over a place that one way or another is going to take you back to the top. All I'm saying is be greatfull. You could have to pedal to the top. That's how we roll here in THE BURG. I pedal a RMX UP and DOWN the mountain. So when the SHOE opens this year, I'll be glad to have a summers worth of reward, be it a lift or a shuttle bus, for all the climbing my friends and I do the rest of the year. It's just troubling to me to see how much discussion (COMPLAINING) goes on about such a chill place. Be glad you don't have to make a physical effort to get to the top.

 

[urwaytoocool4me]

It's obvious those guys are doing all they can. We're not railing at the peons, but at the corporation. Bottom line is **** costs money. If it's not in their budget, where is the extra cash going to come from.
"Why does everyone continue to complain. IT"S THE COMPANY. THE COMPANY DOESN"T CARE. /QUOTE] Companies look at profit and loss. " Consumers who don't push back deserve what they get. You must love $4.00 gas that is tied to record profits.

"Why don't we give all those guys a break and shut up." /QUOTE]Because we want them to take the message back to their managers. We're not sheep. (damn I wish we had a sheep smilie). I intend to make it an issue at the annual condo owners meeting.

"If it's too expensive and you are pissed then DON"T GO. Go to another mountain." /QUOTE] Businesses (with the exception of oil companies) that make all decisions based on internal considerations frequently fail. Any business that cannot adjust to the market, especially business's that rely on discretionary consumer spending, is poorly managed and will eventually perish. No one here want's to see Snowshoe fail because they can't get their **** together.
Snowshoe is a FOUR SEASON resort. Private owners - condo owners, other business owners at the resort have a far greater investment in the resort than the Corporate owners. Four $500,000 condo owners equal one high speed lift investment. Do the math. When they screw up the summer programs to save themselves a few bucks they cost the private investors money.

Ignor your customer at your own peril. I am a businessman and I can promise you that I have kept customers, some for more than 25years because I listened to them.

If you choose to keep quiet and pay whatever the troll demands, fine. And don't read any more posts. But don't expect others to be as docile.

 

[SK6]

OK, lets take it one step further, how do "other" resorts compare in re money v. services? This not a comparison of mountains mind you, however more of a gauge to see what the standard or for lack of a better term, may be.

 

[BAXTER]

I'm a business man too. I've owned courier companies as well as being an owner of Independent Fabrication. Cost go up man! When we raised prices at IF we had lots of customers bitch but that's life. IF is still around and we had tons of people not order any more bikes from us. Point being the market is there and people( maybe not you ) will pay and ride the shuttle bus and the park lift and have a great time. So keep up the bitchin and make all the rest of us look like dicks in the process. Keep up the good work! Take some of that economic skill to D.C. where it's usefull instead of bashing the local hill you know nothing about financially but what you hear from people. Get a copy of their financial report from last year and then lets talk. I'd be more than happy to go thru it with you.

 

[spoke80]

OK, lets take it one step further, how do "other" resorts compare in re money v. services? This not a comparison of mountains mind you, however more of a gauge to see what the standard or for lack of a better term, may be.

Good one, how does Diablo differ from SS in terms of rider satisfaction? Does Diablo treat riders with the same attitude as SS? Because I have never seen a thread like this focused on Diablo.

Cause at the end of the day you're either stoked with the overall experience or your telling your bros how much it blows.

 

[SK6]

I'm still stuck at pedaling the RMX UP the mountain.......

 

[SK6]

On the serious side, a debate is OK so long as it is respectful.....However, beating a dead horse does tend to become monotonous...

 

[BAXTER]

Agreed. We all can't be realistic. I'm all down for revolution when it's for a good cause. Not because the lift won't be running. I'm going riding for free in GW Forest.

 

[dhbuilder]

This is a discussion forum - people discuss things. Few, if any, hold any animosity toward the trail crew. Most, if not all, enjoy riding Snowshoe immensely. I think the predominant sense here is not anger, but rather concern over the cutback in services and what effect that will have on the long term health of the mtb program.

And hey, apparently rider input played a part in getting race fees lowered for the season - perhaps it'll work to get the western lift spinning again also.

bingo !!!!!!

as a trailbuilder myself, i have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for what those guys are up there doing for all of us.
the trails i rode last year during the races they held, were nothing but a blast.
and i rode down all of them, noticing the buildout they've undergone. and quite a few modifications to some from one year to the next.
and i'm sure i'm not the only one who has done that very thing.

our beef isn't with "the crew".
it's with the conflicting stories and no follow up within a reasonable amount of time for those with plans to make for when and where they plan to ride.
it's pretty obvious that as soon as ya'll had info for us, you passed it on immediately.
but look how long the original "sticky" sat there with folks almost begging for updates.

i think myself and others here have made valid points, while not criticising or getting reactionary as others have.
anyone who takes in $$$ for services rendered is going to have to expect feedback from those giving up their $$$.

everywhere we look, prices are going through the roof.
gasoline.
groceries.
bikes and parts for them. (a sram X-0 derailleur ? cane creek double barrel ?)
the list goes on and on.

land access fees are the straw that's breaking more than a few camels backs.

i fully expect an increase in coal creek fees this next year up here.
and yet my trails are still for all intents and purposes, free.

ya'll know how it is here on this forum.
some show their ass.
some speak and continually get pounded by those who don't know their butts from a hole in the ground on whatever subject is being discussed.
some scour every thread and post up just to get their two cents in just to make it sound like they're an integral part of the subject.
some would argue with a brick wall.

and some make valid points.
and i hope that that's what's being done here.

as someone who's self employed i live with the realization that if, i don't give a homeowner a quality product at a fair price.
i go hungry.
and when i raise my rates to keep up with inflation, i catch grief.
especially from longtime regular customers.

and as a trailbuilder who tries his best to properly build and operate a ever expanding trailsystem out of his own back pocket.
i know all too well what's it's like to get a ration of s#!t from riders !!

 

[urwaytoocool4me]

I'm a business man too. I've owned courier companies as well as being an owner of Independent Fabrication. Cost go up man! When we raised prices at IF we had lots of customers bitch but that's life. IF is still around and we had tons of people not order any more bikes from us. Point being the market is there and people( maybe not you ) will pay and ride the shuttle bus and the park lift and have a great time. So keep up the bitchin and make all the rest of us look like dicks in the process. Keep up the good work! Take some of that economic skill to D.C. where it's usefull instead of bashing the local hill you know nothing about financially but what you hear from people. Get a copy of their financial report from last year and then lets talk. I'd be more than happy to go thru it with you.

Okay Jason , I'll print the financials and we'll sped the weekend going through them - notN. Man, I've already paid my ride up the mountain, ride down the mountain dues at Snowshoe, for years. To quote an old friend, No worries (stroke beard). Mark.

 

[SK6]

Group hug....

"Kum Ba Yah......"

 

[Jettj45]

What happened to the volunteer weekends at snowshoe? I would gladly go down and help build for a day or 2.

 

[stoneysnake]

No one here want's to see Snowshoe fail because they can't get their **** together.

thanks we'll try and get our **** together!

 

[urwaytoocool4me]

thanks we'll try and get our **** together!

Now don't get your panties in wad, we're talking corporate ****here. As in giving y'all the resources to do what you do best.

 

[stoneysnake]

Now don't get your panties in wad, we're talking corporate ****here. As in giving y'all the resources to do what you do best.

i hear you but, i feel like we're taking big steps forward this year. no we're not running 2 lifts every weekend but, we are machining trails for 3 months. in the past we've had maybe 3 weeks at best with machines. machined trails are what i beleive will make the sport grow. not everyone can ride straight down the mountain through a rock infested root bed.

 

[SK6]

..not everyone can ride straight down the mountain through a rock infested root bed.

Why not? You made ME do it........

 

[VT Mtbkr]

Why not? You made ME do it........

And if sirknight6 can do it...........

 

[SK6]

And if sirknight6 can do it...........

Wow, that just hurts.........

 

[denjen]

we are machining trails for 3 months.

That is good news. I was under the impression that trail building/maintenance was on the chopping block also.